Medieval II first impressions.

[Hannibal_805]

Greetings all. I've been a tremendous fan of the Total War series since the original Medieval and have spent far too many hours in front of my computer conquering Europe and the known world over and over again. When I heard about Medieval II coming out and read up on it I could not even describe the excitement. However due to other priorities I was not actually able to pick up the game till just this past week. Having played their two previous games and expansions there were a couple of mechanics that seemed awry and I looked into 1.2 (Huge patch, took about as long as the game to install it seems.) and still there are problems: such as my archers on walls shooting at an impossible angle and the combat overall seems much more "messy" than in RTW. In other words it seems that I can never pull off those extremely decisive battles as I once did. Are there any new mechanics for infantry combat and engagement to get the -most- out of a unit (Finally discovered how to get my Teutonics to charge correctly, but even that seems to be hit or miss).

I would greatly appreciate any help you all could offer and love the forum, seen many a good topic and plenty of insightful thoughts and above par internet etiquette.

-Han

[econ21]

Welcome to the Org.

...my archers on walls shooting at an impossible angle...

I think there is a problem with archers on the walls being rather ineffective when they start to shoot at an odd angle. Lusted provided a tweak that could remove that. I put a link to it in the FAQ (first part, section on sieges):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72109

... the combat overall seems much more "messy" than in RTW.

I think the combat is slower than RTW - in move speeds and kill rates - so I find it more controllable and therefore less messy. BUT there is a "cohesion bug/problem" whereby one or two soldiers from a unit can get locked in combat and then the rest of the unit slowly inches towards the combat. That's infuriating when it happens. I don't know how to solve it, except try to get your units lined up neatly and facing the enemy (not bad advice from a realism point of view, either, I guess).

In other words it seems that I can never pull off those extremely decisive battles as I once did.

Morale is higher than in RTW, so combats will last longer and the insta-routs of RTW are less frequent (although they do seem to happen with a high dread general). I find M2TW battles more challenging than RTW - the AI seems more aggressive and more aware. The difference is particularly marked when the AI attacks - it comes on in earnest and does not break up piecemeal or get funnelled as easily as it did in RTW. It also seems much better at siege assaults - I usually succumb to them.

Are there any new mechanics for infantry combat and engagement to get the -most- out of a unit (Finally discovered how to get my Teutonics to charge correctly, but even that seems to be hit or miss).

The dismounted feudal knight type units seem the legionnaire equivalents in M2TW. The carve through most things, but can get wiped out by heavy cavalry. Spearmen are better than those in RTW, but as with that game need to be braced to receive a charge. I still find missiles murder the AI. Cavalry is as lethal as in RTW, but much more fragile - charging the rear of an engaged unit is still the killer move. Leave your knights stuck in a frontal melee and you'll lose them.

You could look at the some of the battle reports that have been done for a M2TW PBM:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77457

[Hannibal_805]

Agreed on the Feudal Knights, they're amazing infantry and pretty much the staple of most of my armies. However, there was this once occasion when sieging a Moorish City that they're Militia Crossbows and Urban Militia were able to rebuke my poor foot knights without much trouble. This was on their walls, but in many sieges leveled against my settlements they proved second to none, of course when they're not flying my banner... ;) Maybe the Moors just have the best militias ever. Any ideas?

[econ21]

Maybe the Moors just have the best militias ever. Any ideas?

Yes - I've not had the pleasure of meeting them yet, but looking at the stats it seems the dreaded Almohad Urban Militia of MTW are back in M2TW. Their attack and defence are only a few points shy of DFKs. Put them on walls, supported by the lethal fire of the defending towers, and the DFKs are onto a losing proposition. Strangely, I've never found a historical reference to the Moors have such formiddable heavy infantry - they seem more reknowned for their light troops and missiles - but what do I know?

BTW, I used to dislike sieges in other TW games, but I find those in M2TW quite interesting - thinking up ways to avoid bloody breech situations like what you've described. But I confess I only bother in PBMs. In solo play, I just starve them out. It saves my real time and, by slowing down my expansion, gives the AI time to build up.

[Ramses II CP]

Urban militia are brutal on the walls, especially considering the innate bonus units defending walls get. My advice is not to engage them there. The great disadvantage of the AI in defending sieges is it's inflexibility. If you build two rams and a few ladders and set up to assault the city from three sides one of those sides will inevitably be quite weakly defended. Additionally the AI will respond slowly to you running your ladder teams to undefended stretches of wall. If you can get your DFKs established on the wall, or even better yet on the ground inside the city, they'll fare much better.

My usual strategy when assaulting a well defended city is to put a ram in the hands of a weak crossbow/archer unit with my general and my cavalry at the front gate, a medium strength infantry team with a ram at a second gate, and my best heavy infantry with ladders at the third wall. The AI is most afraid of rams and your general/cavalry, so their defenders will concentrate on those sides. Send one or both of the rams forward unless you expect them both to burn (Building siege towers to shield the advancing rams is not a bad idea, put one to either side and send them a little ahead of the ram.)

On the ladder side you'll probably face, at worst, an inferior quality of troops, and more likely an inferior number as well. Rush to the walls and send at least one company straight for the gate to open it. Once you've cracked that gate the AI will either begin to withdraw to the town square or start trying to reinforce that area of the city, leaving you weakened defenses against your other two rams. Once a second gate is cracked the AI will retreat to the town square; send cavalry quickly to catch the enemy trying to fall back but don't engage in the square yet.

This is the part where the AI is hopelessly outmatched. Their morale is infinite in the square so they won't surrender there. Therefore your tactics must concentrate on forcing them out of the square. If they have an advantage in ranged units use your own archers/crossbowmen/ballistae and slashing cavalry charges to eliminate it, always avoiding a prolonged engagement. If you don't have sufficient ranged troops you can park your heaviest armored infantry behind a building in range and let the AI waste his arrows and bolts for awhile. You'll take a few losses, but not as many as you would in a general melee in the square. Once your archers can fire unhindered focus on the enemy general, or his toughest remaining troops until they attempt to sally out of the square. Carve them up and try to prevent them retreating again.

Rinse and repeat until your numerical advantage is irresistable, then smash the square. Catapults and mortars with a few chevrons of experience are extremely useful in forcing the enemy to sally out of the square. They won't stand under flaming shot for long.

Another strategy that borders on exploitation is to bring an obviously inferior force to the siege to incite the AI to sally out of his city. When the AI sallies it behaves very foolishly, and about 90% of the time you can rush forward against the sally and trap the enemy in a confused mass at the gates. Crush them there, pursue the remnants to the square, and then assess the numbers to see if you need to do the trick from above.

[Hannibal_805]

Seems sensible enough, attack them on more fronts than they can possibly cover or in the attempt of doing so is spread too thinly. On the point of the city square, I had an instance the other night where in I believe four units of my FDK's and two armored spear man were held up by a General's bodyguard, and Genoan archers in Close combat. All the while another unit of Gernoan sat at the top of the street on this small hill literally cutting down dozens of my troops that were bottled up by virtually nothing.


They were able to out shoot my own Pavise crossbows at the rear of my column as well as my archers, both with silver armor upgrades mind you, as well as take a heavy toll on my FDK's and Teutonics, infuriating. When I first saw the crossbowman come onto the street from the square, I was elated thinking the AI was about to do me a tremendous favor by practically presenting themselves to my heavy infantry and thus avoiding a shootout for the square. Sadly as described above this was not the case.

I would also like to mention again if anyone has thoughts on the Archers on walls dilemma. I've seen that one can edit a certain file, searched for it to no avail, and then others say that it was fixed in 1.2, however in my patched version they still shoot practically straight up at stupidly impossible angle that should only be reserved to Longbows if anyone.

-Han

[econ21]

I would also like to mention again if anyone has thoughts on the Archers on walls dilemma. I've seen that one can edit a certain file, searched for it to no avail, ...

Have you unpacked the M2TW files? A lot of txt files are hidden away unless you use the unpacker. It is in a folder that was created by one of the patches.

[Hannibal_805]

I downloaded and installed 1.2, I'd assume that meant it unpacked itself...? Not really sure what you mean, are the files archived, via WinRAR in the setup file or just hidden in the program files? Clarify please.

[econ21]

Most of the txt files that modders like to work with are packed away in larger *.pack files. You need to run the unpacker.exe to extract them so that you can mod them.

Have a look in the tools\unpacker folder at the readme. But it's very simple, IIRC - just double click the unpacker.exe in that folder. You need a lot of free space though (7 GB minimum).

If you do mod the files - e.g. to try to solve the archery issue - you will have to tell the game to use the unpacked files and not the ones in the *.pack files. This is what the readme says about that:

- To use the modified files create a batch file in your
Medieval II: Total War folder

- In the batch file add the following line

medieval2.exe --io.file_first

- NOTE: Due to a timestamp check, the following unpacked files will
cause the game to crash and must be deleted before the game is
launched:

data\descr_geography_new.txt
data\descr_geography_new.db

- Save the batch file and then launch Medieval II: Total War using the
newly created batch file.

[Hannibal_805]

Another thing I've run into recently I as progress into the higher tiers of buildings. Pike Militia, coming in at incredibly cheap 150 I didn't expect much and sure enough didn't get much. Even facing a full on charge they break and take causalities in droves. Now is this just a matter of "getting what you pay for" or is there a secret to this one as well? ;) I seem to recall that in the M2TW demo there were pikes that were -very- useful in one of the historical battles pitting HRE against France and basically breaking a mass Cavalry charge to great effect. Any insight gents?