Crazy idea about unit prices

[Caveira]

What if recruiting was very cheap (0 turn?) but upkeep very high? Afterall, troops that are fighting are not making money (agriculture, services, etc)

probably stupid idea, if so, ignore

ps: this would most certainly not apply to nomadic tribes

[Leão magno]

Try doing it altering the proper data, I would like to know the results! Most probably the AI would only recruit elite units

[CaesarAugustus]

That is definently not a stupid idea, Caveira. EB already has very high unit upkeep (I think 1/3 of unit recruitment cost), but I think that any higher might just break the economies of some of the smaller factions early game. it would definently make the game more chllenging.

[Caveira]

Try doing it altering the proper data, I would like to know the results! Most probably the AI would only recruit elite units

Ya you're probably right, it is a pitty that, as far as I understand, and apparently you agree with me, AI decision of recruiting seems to be based on pricing, which might very well be that of recruitment and not upkeep. Sadly, I am not a modder and I would probably end up screwing my game if I tried my luck as one. Last thing I modded was Red Alert 2.

Plus, as I was thinking a few minuts ago, without lots of scripting (of which EB is already full of, something that decreases frame rate by a large margin), within the first few turns, all AI cities would have 400 population

[russia almighty]

Very good idea actually . Taking your peasants and lower classes off the farm fields would have nasty results and that should be shown in the upkeep cost . You would see probably better armies thrown against you .

[TWFanatic]

It makes sense...upkeep should reflect not only upkeep costs but the economic impact of having people away from their jobs.

Hey, I just got an idea of how to reflect the superiority of a professional military over a militia. Make the upkeep for militia units relatively and considerably higher than that of professional "full-time" units (or decrease that of professional units). To reflect the extra training it takes to recruit professional units, you could increase recruiting time and cost (or decrease that of militia units).

Heck, you could just make the recruitment time for militia units 0 turns (and 1 for professional units). After all, it wouldn't take Rome (or any city, for that matter) years to recruit a single legion as it does atm.

Or am I just raving?

[Caveira]

I think the only problem would be city populations, which the AI would drain quickly, unless heavy scripted, but good Lord no, my PC can't handly any more scripting!

[russia almighty]

....Not necessarily . Most factions start out in economic turmoil and wouldn't be spamming stacks from the get go .

[skuzzy]

Most factions you play as start out in turmoil but the AI gets bonus cash which sets them above the poverty level so to speak. Also if you believe the idea of the initial cost is for equipment, training, etc... and the upkeep is for salary, and repairs then it makes sense. It is an interesting idea though but not in the context of the RTW engine :)

[Leão magno]

Ya you're probably right, it is a pitty that, as far as I understand, and apparently you agree with me, AI decision of recruiting seems to be based on pricing, which might very well be that of recruitment and not upkeep. Sadly, I am not a modder and I would probably end up screwing my game if I tried my luck as one. Last thing I modded was Red Alert 2.

Plus, as I was thinking a few minuts ago, without lots of scripting (of which EB is already full of, something that decreases frame rate by a large margin), within the first few turns, all AI cities would have 400 population

Your idea is quite historical for the period! and do not worry about messing the game, this is art of the fu of moding!

[Pharnakes]

The important point you all seem to have missed is this: AI is not aware of upkeep costs, it would rapidly spam its self to death, the more money you give it the more money it will spend, and all on units, with nothing left over for buildings or anything else. I am sure you can see why this would never work.


EDIT: Hmm, sorry if I sounded to harsh here, I acctualy have a few ideas of my own in thiie line, but they would require a completely new abastract system for represeting cities (in other words, one hell of alot of work). So, not a the moment.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Population replenishment is already scripted in EB, btw.

But I was thinking what TWFanatic said. If the recruitment of elites costed more, but their upkeep was not as much as levies or military settlers or some such, it would probably have the effect of human player trying to save his elites. I for one like to use my elite units at every place, because they die slower and when they die it means I have to PAY LESS UPKEEP!! The more my men die, the richer I became. Now that is not very historically accurate don't you think? Usually the most elite units were saved for crucial moments or as reserves. Think for example the three way system romans used, with the triari as the last reserve.

Now consider that roman example:

Normal EB:
Hastati: recruit: 1088 upkeep: 272 (4/1)
Principe: recruit: 1456 upkeep: 364 (4/1)
Triari: recruit: 2268 upkeep: 567 (4/1)

Now with unaltered recruitment cost:
Hastati: 1088/363 (3/1)
Principes: 1456/364 (4/1)
Triari: 2268/454 (5/1)

Now you can see the difference: Triari are still quite expensive, but when you have them, you don't want to lose them as they cost so much to train. Of course, with hastati, they aren't too costly to recruit, but they are a bitch to upkeep, and you are quite happy to see them make the first wave assault.

[overweightninja]

It makes sense...upkeep should reflect not only upkeep costs but the economic impact of having people away from their jobs.

Hey, I just got an idea of how to reflect the superiority of a professional military over a militia. Make the upkeep for militia units relatively and considerably higher than that of professional "full-time" units (or decrease that of professional units). To reflect the extra training it takes to recruit professional units, you could increase recruiting time and cost (or decrease that of militia units).

Heck, you could just make the recruitment time for militia units 0 turns (and 1 for professional units). After all, it wouldn't take Rome (or any city, for that matter) years to recruit a single legion as it does atm.

Or am I just raving?

Brilliant idea, would be a very nice representation. However as others have said the AI would probably go nuts with a system like this. However anyone fancy going through the EDU and doing some little tests?

[madmatg]

Are spqr and roma surrectum both scripted? as far as i can tell i dont think they are and they seem to still have a good AI to put up a fight against me. they may be scripted and im jsut missing it but it seems they work fairly well(though surrectum has low unit prices compared to EB)

[TWFanatic]

I'm afraid that I will not try this, as I've already spent far too much time modding EB, and not enough playing. I've yet to start a campaign on 1.0! Perhaps I'll do something minor though, just with the Romans...

[JeffBag]

I did something like this with my recruitment turn mod in the past, where I assigned build turns from 0 to 3 for most units. There was some strange AI problems back then which caused me to give up on the idea, but that was most probably due to the fact that the AI had much more money in the past. The idea should work now though, with more balanced AI income.

I remembered toying with the idea too that Professionals would be highly costly to train but much cheaper to maintain, and vice versa for levies. This was useful since the professional Gallic troops could be set to higher turn recruitment, higher build cost, but lower upkeep, with the option of suddenly bulking up your army with a mass of 0 turn and essential free but massive upkeep Lugoae.

[russia almighty]

Pharnakes what would happen if you made militia units like 99999 each for cost and made elites and such 0 for the initial cost?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There is a hardcoded cap on costs (something like 17000) and the AI will continue to buy those unit even with the crazy cost.

[NeoSpartan]

Nope....

1-)Soldiers cost time and money to train, equip, and organize, even levies. You need to go out find men, give them the news, in a few days they have to get report back. Then u gotta group them, assing a commanding officer, deal with logistics and stuff they carry, etc. Everyone took time to get ready for combat, some more than others.

2-)The AI would spam you with troops in the 1st few turns, $ scripts and populations refilling at work. Also, the AI would then have $0 to make any buidings. However, it will outnumber you, and when u kill a stack you free up $$ for another stack that same turn. No good