Onin no Jidai

[Tomisama]

The 15th century Onin War was the prelude to the 16th century Sengoku Jidai.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/tow.html

I was thinking that it might be interesting to explore Samurai Warlords fighting recreating this period.

I am thinking all things would be pretty much the same troop and weapon wise, except no firearms.

But I'm no expert.

Anyone interested in playing this format?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

The 15th century Onin War was the prelude to the 16th century Sengoku Jidai.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/tow.html

I was thinking that it might be interesting to explore Samurai Warlords fighting recreating this period.

I am thinking all things would be pretty much the same troop and weapon wise, except no firearms.

But I'm no expert.

Anyone interested in playing this format?

Indeed... Sure, I won't mind playing in this format.

[TosaInu]

Yes Tomisama.

[Jochi Khan]

It would be an interesting experiment/experience Tomisama.

[CBR]

But I love guns!


CBR

[Hunter KIng George]

Sounds like a good idea!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

But I love guns!


CBR

Me to


But If you Got the Idea, Then Make it Happen

[Tomisama]

I love guns too CB
This is just for a few battles and a minor competition, if we find it interesting.


I am trying to do a little more research on this period to reinforce the following. But so far, working from what I hope is good memory, I believe some other limitations might be in order.

For this period, along with no guns, there were also no ashigaru yet. And I believe the naginata was the pole weapon for both infantry and cavalry, with the yari to come a bit later also.

I could be wrong, but am posting what I think is right, to open discussion on what units armies might be composed of.

The proposal right now is for, no Yari, no Teppo, and no special units (Hatamoto, Ninga).

That leaves:

Heavy Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi (maybe)
Naginata
Warrior Monks


Was also thinking about a reduction in koku, say down to 7k, but am not sure about this.

Edit : added "maybe"

[Tomisama]

Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

Heavy Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi
Yari Samurai
Naginata
Warrior Monks

At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Correction: Yaris and No Dachi are ok for the period, so just no ashis or guns.

Heavy Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Naginata Cavalry
Cavalry Archers

Samurai Archers
No Dachi
Yari Samurai
Naginata
Warrior Monks

At 10k or more? Without the lower priced units (200, 300, 400), a little more financial room may be needed.

10K, 12.5K or 15K. Any of those prices sound good?

[L'Impresario]

Sounds interesting but...

Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.

[Tomisama]

Sounds interesting but...

Too much money and the game becomes too attritional. Without guns any incentive to buy missiles is significantly reduced; after all, instead of paying 400 koku for a SA you can pay a bit more and get a ND. Of course if it comes down to dislodging an army from a hill, archers will have a role to play, although in a 4v4 the most effective strategy in such a setting would most likely involve no missiles.

Hi Alex

Good fighting with you last week

My first inclination was to go to 5 to 7k with this, thinking that in the early days that armies would be smaller. Then I read numbers like 80 and 85 thousand troops, and figured that our little 960 men armies would be fine historically .

Now I am looking at less money again, but now with larger units. Imagine 5k and 120 man units (host selects huge). Beyond being a gorgeous spectacle, this transforms the game. You get only half as many units, but they are twice the size.

More thoughts?

[TosaInu]

Hello Tomisama,

Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.

[Tomisama]

Hello Tomisama,

Using yari on horseback was a reaction to facing more opponents and especially the need for samurai to fence of packs of ashigaru. The Onin war and some other conflicts before that, changed the battlefield already, but mounted archery should be more important here than we saw up till now.

Hiya Tosa

It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hiya Tosa

It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?

Pro. But just my opinion.

[TosaInu]

Hiya Tosa

It is my current understanding that the fighting peasants organized into military “ashigaru” units did not happen until 1485, when the ji-samurai formed the ikki army.
If it is as you say, that the mounted yari were a reaction to the quills (stekelvarken ) of the ashigaru, then should the yari cavalry be included in an Onin War conflict, which ended in 1477?

And indeed, I am thinking that without the gun wall, that the cavalry archer will emerge to fill a more important role in samurai wars also


Anyone have a reaction to 120 man units, pro or con?

Hello Tomisama,

There have always been non samurai in the armies. Ashigaru became more an organised and professional unit during sengoku jidai and samurai became more a free duck.

I'm not sure about (authentically) excluding units, except for teppo. I'm sure that samurai would use whatever is available, but mounted archery is more important. But for a game, anything is fine with me.

[Tomisama]

Hello Tomisama,

There have always been non samurai in the armies. Ashigaru became more an organised and professional unit during sengoku jidai and samurai became more a free duck.

I'm not sure about (authentically) excluding units, except for teppo. I'm sure that samurai would use whatever is available, but mounted archery is more important. But for a game, anything is fine with me.

Well, since simple is always best, lets make Onin Rules just no guns.

Have a game or two and see what develops



I really would like to play with big armies again some time though

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I hear you guys did a no gun game yesterday. I see if I can come back this Sunday if School Permits. What type of money you guys used? normal 9k for the No Gun or no?

[TosaInu]

Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,

We used 9k in the one no guns game we had yesterday.

Unitsize was huge; though my top sprite eraser was an archer (apart from the HCAV who could chase), the game felt a bit like a brawl (?). Maybe we should give it another go on large or normal.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Large Size Could Work, since I do enjoy playing in Large.

[Puzz3D]

Top killer for each player in the 3v3 battle with 120 man unit size and no guns:

Tosa....HC...192
CBR.....WM...238
Ras.....WM...203
Yuuki...WM...231
Tomi....WM...249
Noir.....CA....162


Samurai Archer performance:

Attackers
---------
Yuuki....50, 80, 73, 145........Average = 87
Tosa....106, 115, 104, 144....Average = 117
Noir......126, 22, 78.............Average = 75


Defenders
---------
Tomi.....54, 54, 29, 30.........Average = 42
CBR......80, 64, 57, 149........Average = 87
Ras......131, 66, 113, 62.......Average = 93


Yuuki rushed Tomi, and you can see by the numbers that Tomi's archers had the lowest kills despite the 20% shooting advantage of the defender. I believe this is partly due to the fact that archers overshoot approaching targets, although, Tomi's archers were on lower ground and engaged by melee units fairly quickly which are also factors in their low kills. It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.

[TosaInu]

Top killer for each player in the 3v3 battle with 120 man unit size and no guns:

Tosa....HC...192

Samurai Archer performance:

Attackers
---------
Tosa....106, 115, 104, 144....Average = 117

That is correct. Details show that the lsam made more plain kills. The JHC could also make extra kills by chasing.

It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.

It doesn't seem so.

There may be an explanation for the differences. I had 4 Ni and used them as wall, therefore not really having to bother about them. I ordered the lsam to target monks (time to micromanage them more). Most expensive, most powerful infantry combat unit and least armour => most success.

[L'Impresario]

It doesn't appear to me that archers present much of a deterrent to rushing.

Without knowing what exactly happened there, I can guess that archers were shooting each other for quite some time (as most players picked 4 SA), and after melee started they could naturally continue providing missile support by targeting neglected units. This is an advantage compared to guns, who cannot perform this second function, but teppos can be more influential in the battle as a whole. They might score less kills but the morale penalties they inflict makes them a more reliable deterrent to rushing.

[Tomisama]

I had 4 Ni and used them as wall, therefore not really having to bother about them. I ordered the lsam to target monks (time to micromanage them more). Most expensive, most powerful infantry combat unit and least armour => most success.

I thought about putting out an armored unit front line, but was worried about friendly kills and loss of accuracy.

Maybe next time

[Puzz3D]

Unlike teppo, archers don't run as fast as no-dachi and monks. Besides, unless a ranged unit is directly targeted by the melee unit it doesn't retreat anyway.

[TosaInu]

I thought about putting out an armored unit front line, but was worried about friendly kills and loss of accuracy.

Maybe next time

I had the archers deployed in front of the Ni, the Ni were a tough second line.
Friendly kills are less of an issue compared to teppo as archers shoot in a higher arc.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

How A No Arrows Game. We use Guns, but no Archers or HA. How about that?

[Yoshitsune]

Slightly OT but has anyone else tried the Onin no Ran mod for Mount & Blade?

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?board=42.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0w_P8qJX4

Apart from anything there's plenty of historical research included in the mod that might be useful.