Romans In Denmark.

[cmacq]

I on the other hand think in many cases the numbers were huge. Its just more connivent to think otherwise?

[Landwalker]

I on the other hand think in many cases the numbers were huge. Its just more connivent to think otherwise?

And why is that? Surely, particularly given the nature of the Scandinavians to glorify conquest and exploration, the preexisting population of Iceland would have been mentioned in the epics if it had been significant enough to need forcible displacement, or this displacement would have been mentioned in one of the non-Scandinavian sources that so loved to demonize the vikings and would no doubt jump upon any opportunity to condemn them for forcibly overcoming an island of Irish monks. Is there some archaeological evidence to the contrary?

Cheers.

[The Internet]

Brazil huh? Well, that is another one for the "Where did ancient greeks go?" para-psychology classes.

-Alpha Centauri,
-Japan
-Easter island.
and now... Brazil.

Now, the reason I find this all very uglee to say the least is that Ancient greeks did travel a lot, from Norway to S. vietnam (the furthest greek finds are in S. Vietnam in the location of Oc eo), but people tend to disbelieve it because of wackos like the one above.

After IG state was formed a big emporion (comercial colony) was built in Taprobane state - present day Sri Lanka, from which Periplous documents all the places Ancient Greeks, then Romans, (basically greek crewed greek speaking vessels) went. This is how we know of Malaisia (golden coast) and other far away places.

In Oc eo, S. Vietnam is the furthest place greek trades have been found. I have no more knowledge of this excavation, unfortunately.

Well i'm certainly not an expert on where they did and didn't go but from what i was told, the tribe has a few words that are the same as the Greeks and that word is for wrestling if i remember correctly. I know that my friend (studying theology/psychology masters) told me that one of his professors had a daughter who was a linguist and who had studied some of the tribal languages from the tribes in Brazil and found that they held this particular word in common. Unfortunately i have no more information on it and thought it would be an interesting theory to bring up i don't totally believe it but i certainly don't pass it off straight away either.

[cmacq]

And why is that?
Cheers.

was commenting about this

As for the migrations, well I think they were more a matter of fighting elites being driven hither and thither. I imagine they took some ladies with them but like the Vikings in Ireland I think generally shopped locally rather than carry wife and kids a thousand miles. I know the Goths had family in camp at Adrianople, but I can't imagine Attila organising a little nomad creche.

right, there was an monastery, not sure if it was irish? may have been hebrideans, no one knows for sure? We do have fragment from an ancient greek report of a merchant that was taken there by the hebrideans.

The Icelanders themselves claim they brought irish wifes? But this in part may suggest the presence of a small hebridean population? Remember this all happened during the Med. Warm period, which is again partly why radiocarbon dating doesn't work well. That and the little ice age, both of which Mr al gore managed to leave off his charts?

[cmacq]

Well i'm certainly not an expert.

I remember something about a roman period shipwreck found in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. The amphorae appear to have been made at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco, sometime in the 3rd century A.D. I guess many a roman were actually greeks? This may explain why tabaco turns up in Europe well before the 15th century?

[Landwalker]

was commenting about this

Ah, my mistake. Carry on, then.

Cheers.

[Sakkura]

Anyway, thats when I came to the confusing bit...

O rly?

[The Internet]

I remember something about a roman period shipwreck found in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. The amphorae appear to have been made at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco, sometime in the 3rd century A.D. I guess many a roman were actually greeks? This may explain why tabaco turns up in Europe well before the 15th century?

He did mention the word was the same in Roman too but since a lot of the Roman world was influenced by the Greeks i didn't see it as important since this subject came up in a discussion we were having about history and the Greek language, which he had to learn as part of his studies in theology while he was still in Brazil. It was a very intresting chat, the only problem being that his English isn't brilliant and so having an indepth convo with him about anything (especially this) can be difficult.


I know that the Romans used many greeks in their fleets but i'm not sure if this remained true in the 3rd Century A.D. I'd like to read more about the ship wreck if possible because this sort of thing is really intresting to me.

[cmacq]

I'd like to read more about the ship wreck if possible because this sort of thing is really intresting to me.

The International Shipwreck Conference

Underwater archaeological survey conducted in Baia de Guanabara, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, under auspices of the Naval Museum, on what is believed to be a possible Roman amphora carrier from the 2nd century BC. Three other shipwrecks found and surveyed on this site (16th, 17th and 20th centuries). September 1982 - February 1983.

see

Treasure Lost at Sea: Diving to the World's Great Shipwrecks By Robert F. Marx, Jenifer Marx

The above Robert Marx (a treasure hunter) was the one who collected sherds from the Rio wreck. I also remember something about another possible Roman period wreck off the coast of Maine? However, I think the problem with these wrecks is that they are marked by amphora, which the Spanish also used in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. Additionally, neither were investigated by archaeologists or actually written up. I'm not sure if these finds are legitimate or not?

[The Internet]

That certainly sounds very interesting, i just wish they had done a more detailed survey and study of the wreck(s). Thanks for the info. :)

[Sir-S-Of-TURBO]

Please note that I'm from Denmark and the article in danish says that it was a wealthy lord who had trade connections to the romans. The other roman styled graves were later lords who tried to blend in with that lords traditions.

No romans, just people who thought they were cool.

[EoE]

Please note that I'm from Denmark and the article in danish says that it was a wealthy lord who had trade connections to the romans. The other roman styled graves were later lords who tried to blend in with that lords traditions.

No romans, just people who thought they were cool.

Exactly.

rgds/EoE

[dominique]

It's highly probable that a bunch of roman expats would have lived in Denmark though. It's near enough the amber sources to be a good base for merchants.

The romans knew probably FAR MORE of the outside world than what surviving sources tells us. We use writers like Suetonius, Flavius Josephus, Jordanes as the reference as to what they knew, but these guys, were they really good?

By example, they were trading in Britain a long time before they conquered it. And they knew it very well even if the sources we know were sketchy when they talked about Britain.

I have trouble imagining a Roman Trader revealing all his roads and contacts to a nerdy writer for the sake of history. Scandinavia and the Baltic sea was important for ivory, amber, furs, mercenaries and such. The Romans were go-getters, they would not have been sitting on their bums waiting for the good stuff to come by mail. Denmark was what? 300 klicks from the roman borders? Romans knew enough of Denmark, it's no challenge!


Of course, we need proof. But we interpret proof as CMACQ demonstrated brilliantly earlier. So when we find a tomb full of Roman artefacts in Denmark, guess what people think?

Ah I don't know. But I can tell you there's an american college in Paris, an american cemetary too, but France ain't no part of USA!

[Bootsiuv]

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't ONE roman who didn't find himself that far north in over 1000 years of history.

The ancient world did not exist in bubbles....if roman merchants existed in Gaul, I think it would be rather foolish to just assume that no Roman ever set foot in the area just because some historian didn't tell us.

Merchants go where the money is....they have little care for statecraft and warfare unless it affects said money.

Also, to think that no Roman warez made it here (and that the original inhabitant's nobility didn't want to be associated with the most powerful state in the world) is just not feasible IMO.

[Landwalker]

Honestly, I find it (equally) difficult to imagine that the extant sources would be so vague or sketchy when discussing places like Denmark if they had consistent and reliable knowledge of the geography. Just because Denmark was a good area for amber and furs doesn't mean that the Roman merchants went straight there to pick it up--it's equally (and perhaps more) likely that German merchants got the amber/furs/whatever from Denmark, and that they brought them down a ways into the areas of Germania relatively near Roman territory, and that Roman merchants bought the goods from Germans, in Germania, rather than from {whoever} in Denmark. Consequently, they would probably know of places like Scandinavia through conversations with German merchants, but they wouldn't necessarily know a whole lot about those places. Which is, incidentally, more or less what the extant sources reveal--knowledge of, rather than extensive knowledge about. Besides, if you were a fat, wealthy Roman merchant, would you want to drive your caravan a few hundred miles through the dark forests of barbaric Germany and back?

Sure, we can speculate all we want about what might have been the case. Maybe there's some lost Roman geographical treatise that offers in-depth detail of Scandinavia and the Baltic regions. But we don't have it, and we can only work with what we have, not with what we would like to have but don't. And since we have sketchy-at-best accounts of Baltic/Scandinavian geography, we have to assume that the Romans' general knowledge of the area was equally sketchy.

(Edit: And, sure, one Roman guy might have been stupid/lucky/brave enough to make the trip up to Denmark, but if he didn't write about it or if his journal is lost to history, we aren't going to know about it and so can't formulate interpretations based on evidence we don't have. In any case, just because one or two Italian merchants hoofed it up to Denmark doesn't by any stretch denote detailed knowledge of the area by the general Roman populace.)

As far as explaining the presence of Roman "artifacts" in a Danish-area cemetary, it's basically the same sort of phenomenon you see when you find, well, amber and furs in Italy. The merchants had to give the Germans something, and if Late Antiquity is any indication, German nobles considered Roman goods very "chic". As Sir S of Turbo pointed out above, the cemetary is just a north-Germanic chieftain who, because of trade connections (note: Not direct contact, just connections. He'd probably never been to Italy, either) had lots of Roman goods that he would have loved decking himself out in to make a statement about his prestige--those who could ornament themselves in exotic goods scored big-time in the prestige category.

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

Good points, Landwalker.

Surely, though, the romans were aware of these areas....Gaul and Denmark are not that far apart, nor is Britian for that matter. All that it would take would be a usual channel storm to blow a ship off course a'la the spanish armada....

That being said, no factual evidence does make my argument somewhat moot.

[Landwalker]

Good points, Landwalker.

Surely, though, the romans were aware of these areas....Gaul and Denmark are not that far apart, nor is Britian for that matter. All that it would take would be a usual channel storm to blow a ship off course a'la the spanish armada....

That being said, no factual evidence does make my argument somewhat moot.

They very well could have been, but like I said, being aware of a region is quite different from having familiar knowledge of it. In fact, we already know they were aware of the regions, thanks to the sketchy extant evidence. But it's the sketchiness that makes that knowledge stop at awareness rather than continue into familiarity. If anybody ever uncovers a manuscript from the Roman republican or imperial period that does provide detailed knowledge of Baltic geography, you can bet every classicist in the world will do a backflip at the excitement of it all.

Cheers.

[Sakkura]

Please note that I'm from Denmark and the article in danish says that it was a wealthy lord who had trade connections to the romans. The other roman styled graves were later lords who tried to blend in with that lords traditions.

No romans, just people who thought they were cool.

That's just their guess. The article quite clearly says they really have no idea who he is; and only later will they find out if he is native to the area or not.

[EoE]

That's just their guess. The article quite clearly says they really have no idea who he is; and only later will they find out if he is native to the area or not.

Actually the article says that these are the graves of the rich part of the population. It corresponds very nicely with other finds in Denmark and with the Roman practice to establish favourable relationships with tribal leaders through gifts and commerce.

It is not impossible that it actually is a Roman burial ground, it's just unlikely.

rgds/EoE

[dominique]

If anybody ever uncovers a manuscript from the Roman republican or imperial period that does provide detailed knowledge of Baltic geography, you can bet every classicist in the world will do a backflip at the excitement of it all.
Cheers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas

600 years before they found the wares in Denmark, he explored what is probably Scandinavia.

From the artice for those who don't want to go through the article.


Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

And by the way, back in Marius time, when the Cimbri and the Teutones arrived, the Romans knew very well from where they came.

Anyway, as some history teachers back in college tried to bunk in my head, the classical writers aren't good references as to what was known and what was really going on when we compare their writing to the material proofs. By example, when you read what the classical authors wrote about Gaul, and what the archeologists found in Entremont, there's a gap like the niagara here. They talked about savage tribes, they found several thousand people cities.

But at the time Strabo was writing his Geographika, by exemple, there was that greek town called Massilia in Gaul, full of traders who knew very well the country since they were trading in the country for a couple hundred years. How come Strabo's off chart like that?

We have two options:

-Or Strabo was the best geographer back then and knew ALL the information available back then. Which means that people in Massalia were dumb about their immediate surroundings. Entremont is a two day's ride from Marseille and was a 30'000 people Gallo-Ligurian city. Strabo doesn't even mention it.

-Or Strabo was a ordinary greek intellectual from Pontus who's work show what people knew in Pontus back then. His work was considered important in the middle ages because it talked about the holy lands, so it was copied and handed down to us.

But no! We consider the work of a greek from Hillbillyland as the ultimate proof as to what Greek and Romans knew from their world. We have material proof that there's roman ware in Denmark. We assume automatically that it was some petty noble who bought some cheap ware in the Ikea-um... If there were romans, we would have known, somebody would have wrote about it.

I don't buy it. Romans were go getters. There were roman traders in India, in Britain (long before Claudius invaded it), all over the place. They wouldn't have gone to Denmark, not even a week trip in a ship from Germania Inferior?

Bottom line
There's no scientific article about the finds yet. But I'll check it out. In my own opinion, it's probable that it's a roman grave, but the archaelogist, not wanting to have an OOPA on his resume will curve the facts a little so it match his career.

Cheers!

[The Internet]

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't ONE roman who didn't find himself that far north in over 1000 years of history.

The ancient world did not exist in bubbles....if roman merchants existed in Gaul, I think it would be rather foolish to just assume that no Roman ever set foot in the area just because some historian didn't tell us.

Merchants go where the money is....they have little care for statecraft and warfare unless it affects said money.

Also, to think that no Roman warez made it here (and that the original inhabitant's nobility didn't want to be associated with the most powerful state in the world) is just not feasible IMO.

Having merchants present in the region does not equal a Roman presence like you'd find in a place taken over by the military. You might find a few graves of some Roman merchants but that doesn't mean much because merchants of all races were everywhere. When you find the remains of a Roman fort/camp/supply base then we can start to talk.


Just thought, if the merchant was rich enough he'd probably have his remains taken back to Rome for burial there, which only decreases the chances.

[cmacq]

I Hope my Latin rendering of these lines from PLINI SECUNDI NATURALIS HISTORIAE, book 4 are of some help, regarding this denmark subject?

Landwalker you also may find this of some interest?

I did this rather quick, so if someone finds errors, sorry.


[Chapter 13]

[Line 95]

Philemon Morimarusam a Cimbris vocari, hoc est mortuum mare, inde usque ad promunturium Rusbeas, ultra deinde Cronium. Xenophon Lampsacenus a litore Scytharum tridui navigatione insulam esse inmensae magnitudinis Balciam tradit, eandem Pytheas Basiliam nominat. feruntur et Oeonae, in quibus ovis avium et avenis incolae vivant, aliae, in quibus equinis pedibus homines nascantur, Hippopodes appellati, Phanesiorum aliae, in quibus nuda alioqui corpora praegrandes ipsorum aures tota contegant.


Rendering

Philemon claims the Cimbri's word Morimarusam, means the Dead Sea, there upwards towards the Rusbeas promontory, opposite of Cronium. There, Xenophon Lampsacenus sailed three days along the coast of Scytharum (error as it should be Scatinavum) to obtain a measurement of the distance to the Balciam Isle. Pytheas mentioned the very same names, the Basiliam and Oeonae isles, on whose wild coasts dwell sheep and wild-oats, according to the populace they produce a device called Hippopodes (horseshoe?) for the feet of their houses, from Phanesiorum, another report that someone stripped an ancient entombed corpse that was entirely over laid in gold.

[Line 96]

Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.

Rendering

Now to clearly begin recounting the fame of the nations of Inguaeonum (followers of Ing?), which are the closest of Germany. Recently, the area between Mount Saevo and Ripaeis has not been continuously surveyed. All the way up to the promontory of Cimbrorum where the facing tide has caused a bowl shaped curve, that is called Codanus (The Tail). This is a place crowded with islands, that are distinct from Sweden, where except for that which is known, is a region of undefined magnitude, as likewise is much of its shape. In this district dwell the Hillevionum nation of 500 cantons, where formerly not as subordinates they acquired land in this territory from those believed to be the Aeningia.

[Line 97]

quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae Romanis armis cognitae. earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria nostris dicta a frugis multitudine sponte provenientis, item Glaesaria a sucino militiae appellata, barbaris Austeravia, praeterque Actania.

Rendering

Certain of these dwell from the River Vistlam up to the Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, and Hirris given, the bay called Cylipenum and in the middle the Island of Latrim, which is next to another bay called Lagnum, a region bordering the Cimbri. The promontory of Cimbrorum extends far into the sea causing it to be a peninsula, from that place Tastris solicited 23 Roman swords to train with. The most noble Burcana, offered to give freely to Fabaria our spokesmen, a great multitude of beans, and likewise Glaesaria for amber solicited military support, for the savage Austeravia, against the Actania.

[Line 98]

Toto autem mari ad Scaldim usque fluvium Germaniae accolunt gentes, haud explicabili mesnura: tam inmodica prodentium discordia est. Graeci et quidam nostri |XXV| oram Germaniae tradiderunt, Agrippa cum Raetia et Norico longitudinem DCXXXV, latitudinem CCXVIII, Raetiae prope unius maiore latitudine sane circa excessum eius subactae; nam Germania multis postea annis nec tota percognita est.

Rendering

However, all the men from up in Sweden stream continuously into Germany to become neighboring clans: no doubt an expansion by force: nevertheless for-ivory tribute they restrain conflict. A certain Greek-person provides them 25 degrees of coastal Germany, Agrippa included the longitude 636 and latitude 248 degrees from Reatia and Norico. Near Raetia was once the ancestral boundary however this boundary withdraws as they compel; thus with this multitude in Germany the future years are in doubt.

[Line 99]

si coniectare permittitur, haut multum ora deerit Graecorum opinioni et longitudini ab Agrippa proditae. Germanorum genera quinque: Vandili, quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones. alterum genus Inguaeones, quorum pars Cimbri, Teutoni ac Chaucorum gentes.

Rendering

If conjecture is permitted, the Greeks insist that much but not all of the coast was abandoned along the route of Agrippa's advance. From Germany arose five nations: Vandili, of who the Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, and Gutones are members. Another people the Inguaeones, of whom the Cimbri, Teutoni, and Chaucorum nations are members.

[Sakkura]

Actually the article says that these are the graves of the rich part of the population. It corresponds very nicely with other finds in Denmark and with the Roman practice to establish favourable relationships with tribal leaders through gifts and commerce.

It is not impossible that it actually is a Roman burial ground, it's just unlikely.

rgds/EoE

From the article:
"Henover fyrsten stod en gravhøj, som for længst er væk. Men fyrsten, som arkæologerne ikke ved, hvem var, lå to meter under jorden med alle sine skatte og er derfor uskadt.

Hans skelet og tænder er i god stand, og det giver arkæologerne håb om at kunne bestemme, om han er dansker eller indvandrer, og om der også skulle ligge familie i gravene rundt om ham."

Translation:

"Above the lord stood a burial mound which has long since gone. But the lord, who the archaeologists do not know who is, lay two meters below ground with all his treasure and is therefore intact.

His skeleton and teeth are in good condition, so the archaeologists hope to be able to determine whether he is a Dane or an immigrant, and whether his relatives are buried in the surrounding graves."

Too bad they haven't posted a follow-up story, because it says they should have gotten more info by thursday last week.

[EoE]

Okay, we are talking about two different articles. I was referring to the one linked in the first post.

But while we're at it, I guess you also read the last part of the article, you're refering to? The part where the archeologists speculate that either the buried lord or his sons fought as allies for the Romans?

It's Occam's razor really: The simple explanation, is the likely explanation. And the simple explanation is that it's a Danish tribal lord with contacts to the Romans.

rgds/EoE

[Sakkura]

Yeah, it is most likely a tribal lord. And I agree the likelihood that he is Roman is low. But until we know, we don't know.

[cmacq]

then we have: P CORNELI TACITI DE ORIGINE ET SITV GERMANORVM


[chapter 2]

Ipsos Germanos indigenas crediderim minimeque aliarum gentium adventibus et hospitiis mixtos, quia nec terra olim, sed classibus advehebantur qui mutare sedes quaerebant, et inmensus ultra utque sic dixerim adversus Oceanus raris ab orbe nostro navibus aditur. Quis porro, praeter periculum horridi et ignoti maris, Asia aut Africa aut Italia relicta Germaniam peteret, informem terris, asperam caelo, tristem cultu adspectuque, nisi si patria sit?

Rendering

The real German natives, are believed very little changed by tribal invasion and even hospitable mingling, as formerly not by land, those questing for a change of home were brought there by ships, which have but to sail beyond into a hostile Ocean, which is a region our ships rarely go. Formerly, who else would risk frightful and unknown seas, abandon Asia, Africa, or Italy to reach Germany, a hideous place of harsh climate, to see its gloomy manner, but those who were native to the region?


[Chapter 37]

Eundem Germaniae sinum proximi Oceano Cimbri tenent, parva nunc civitas, sed gloria ingens. Veterisque famae lata vestigia manent, utraque ripa castra ac spatia, quorum ambitu nunc quoque metiaris molem manusque gentis et tam magni exitus fidem.

Rendering

Near the ocean reside the Cimbri, in the same curved bay of Germany, now a small community, yet vast in past glory. In saying no, tradition's vestige holds permanency, for over a wide space in this far place, fortified encampments, now measured heaps disserted by this historic race, were so broadly abandoned, yet with honor.

[konny]

I allow to re-quote the first post:

[I]COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Archaeologists have discovered a Roman cemetery from about 300 A.D. in suburban Copenhagen with about 30 graves, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

When we are talking about a "Roman" cemetary of the 4th Century AD we have set straight before what is considered to be Roman in this periode. We have millions "Romans" living north of the Alps that did not even come close to Italy in all their live. We have a full migration going on along all of the Rhine with masses of Germanic crossing the border peacefully and setteling on Roman lands.

On the other side of the border there were large parts of the land living for centuries in very close contact with the superior Roman culture. And there was also always large movements going on within the Germanic population that effected their entire area of living.

And we have, of course, the hughe number of Germanic mercenaries that served for the Romans, and became more or less Romanized.

That means:

- It would be more or less impossible to distinguish a Germanic (for example a warlord or a trader) of the 4th Cent. who has lived all his live in Denmark but collected a lot of Roman stuff for some reason from a Germanic (for example a mercenary or trader) who was born in Cologne or Treverorum and happened to die in Denmark for what reason ever simply by the content of his grave.

- It is absurde to assume that, given the hughe number of Germanics that were living in the Roman Empire, the Romans didn't know a lot of details on Northern Europe. That is just random of the remaints, considering how few writen sources have survived at all.

[cmacq]

It seems more likely romans may be found early on, and very much less likely later in time. It seems rome had a better relationship with the kelto-germans than the nordic-germans. And....as the keltos seem to have lost the struggle for dominance east of the rhine, o'well?

[runes]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

[dominique]

Anyway, we argue when we have very little information on this.

It's probably a salvage operation, on a contaminated site (a bulldozer turned out bones and bowls: oops! We need an archeologist here like now!), so the team is reluctant to give info (there's a possible OOPA, remember) and we are here and we chit chat on this on like gossipers with a rumor and sharpened knives!