Romans In Denmark.

[cmacq]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

ask the black birds?

[runes]

ah yes, the famous bone and iron eating crows of norther italy.

[cmacq]

thats why they call them maniples, they feed the black birds.

Manipulus de Mandibūla

[The Internet]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

Depends, they were usually put into mass funeral pyres and burnt to a crisp, for a lot of people back then, it is what their religion called for. As for the armour, well that was taken as part of the spoils of war, if it were an army of Gauls (for example) that had won they'd probably take the best bits for themselves and sell the rest and for the Romans they'd take them for victory parades afterwards (especially if the general was given a triumph). I don't doubt that some of the soldiers also went through the dead to see if anything caught their eye as well, everyone loves a bargin.

[cmacq]

even the late bronze age greeks may have known about and went to denmark?


Ὁμήρου Ὀδύσσεια
Homer's ODYSSEY

BOOK 11

ἡ δ᾽ ἐς πείραθ᾽ ἵκανε βαθυρρόου Ὠκεανοῖο. ἔνθα δὲ Κιμμερίων ἀνδρῶν δῆμός τε πόλις τε, ἠέρι καὶ νεφέλῃ κεκαλυμμένοι· οὐδέ ποτ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἠέλιος φαέθων καταδέρκεται ἀκτίνεσσιν, οὔθ᾽ ὁπότ᾽ ἂν στείχῃσι πρὸς οὐρανὸν ἀστερόεντα, οὔθ᾽ ὅτ᾽ ἂν ἂψ ἐπὶ γαῖαν ἀπ᾽ οὐρανόθεν προτράπηται, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ νὺξ ὀλοὴ τέταται δειλοῖσι βροτοῖσι. νῆα μὲν ἔνθ᾽ ἐλθόντες ἐκέλσαμεν, ἐκ δὲ τὰ μῆλα εἱλόμεθ᾽· αὐτοὶ δ᾽ αὖτε παρὰ ῥόον Ὠκεανοῖο ᾔομεν, ὄφρ᾽ ἐς χῶρον ἀφικόμεθ᾽, ὃν φράσε Κίρκη.

rendering

Each day the sail stretched out to make us race the sea in stride, and out-run the shadow of the sun as we sped across an endless way. In short measure by this means we came to the wave-fill ocean stream and to the Kimmeri kith, kin, and town all wrapped in a mist that never parts to let the sun shine on. This budged not when starry heaven comes around, neither rising from the ground, nor when urged sinks back down. Likewise by design thrust in deathly darkness cower mortal men bound aboard a driven craft, that as goats grasped in hand, yanked aside the ocean’s flow and run aground, ... all as Circe had fore-said.

[Sakkura]

Lol, no wonder the odyssey took so long if they went all the way to Denmark. Way to get lost in the Aegean and end up in the North Sea.

[Watchman]

...and how the Hell would one of those ships actually have survived the sea-trip through the rather... unwelcoming Bay of Biscay and North Sea ? The vast majority of Mediterranean vessels were teh suck for Atlantic sailing; the Phoenicians and Greeks going beyond the Pillars of Hercules AFAIK used designs rather heavier and more robust than was the norm for Med shipping.

[runes]

we all know how much those greeks loved going beyond the pillars of hercules.

[Watchman]

Merchants go where there's profit to be made, and the British Isles were known as "tin isles" for a reason. You gotta hand that to merchants everywhere; they don't give up easily.

[Sakkura]

...and how the Hell would one of those ships actually have survived the sea-trip through the rather... unwelcoming Bay of Biscay and North Sea ? The vast majority of Mediterranean vessels were teh suck for Atlantic sailing; the Phoenicians and Greeks going beyond the Pillars of Hercules AFAIK used designs rather heavier and more robust than was the norm for Med shipping.

More likely they would have gone upriver. But you'd have to be more than a little lost to think a river was part of the Aegean and that Ithaca was just around the corner.

[Watchman]

Granted, given the way Odysseus' lot failed to find their way home in a pond as easily navigated as eastern Med, it can be assumed they're guilty of repeat offenses of "sailing under the influence"...

[cmacq]

"sailing under the influence"...

then there is

Στράβων Γεωγραφία
STRABO's GEOGRAPHY
BOOK 7

[Chapter 2]

[1]
περι δε Κιμβρὀν τα μεν ουκ ευ λεγεται· τα δ᾿ εψηει πιτηανοτὑτασ ου μετριασ, ουτε γαρ τὑν τοιαυτὑν αιτιαν του πλανὑτασ γενεστηαι και λὑιστρικουσ αποδεχαιτ᾿ αν τισ· ηοτι ψηερρονὑσον οικουντεσ μεγαλὑι πλὑμμυριδι εχελατηειεν εκ τὀν τοπὀν; και γαρ νυν εψηουσι τὑν ψηὀραν ηὑν ειψηον προτερον· και επεμπσαν τὀι Σεβαστὀι δὀρον τον ηιερὀτατον παρ᾿ αυτοισ λεβὑτα· αιτουμενοι πηιλιαν και αμνὑστιαν τὀν ηυπὑργμενὀν· τυψηοντεσ δε ηὀν ὑχιουν απὑραν; γελοιον δε τὀι πηυσικὀι και αιὀνιὀι πατηει δισ ηεκαστὑσ ηὑμερασ συμβαινοντι προσοργιστηεντασ απελτηειν εκ του τοπου, εοικε δε πλασματι το συμβὑναι ποτε ηυπερβαλλουσαν πλὑμμυριδα; επιτασεισ; επιτασεισ μεν γαρ και ανεσεισ δεψηεται· τεταγμενασ δε και περιοδιζουσασ· ηο ὀκεανοσ εν τοισ τοιουτοισ πατηεσιν, ουκ ευ δ᾿ ουδε ηο πηὑσασ ηοπλα αιρεστηαι προσ τασ πλὑμμυριδασ τουσ Κιμβρουσ· ουδ᾿ ηοτι απηοβιαν ηοι Κελτοι ασκουντεσ κατακλυζεστηαι τασ οικιασ ηυπομενουσιν· ειτ᾿ ανοικοδομουσι· και ηοτι πλειὀν αυτοισ συμβαινει πητηοροσ εχ ηυδατοσ ὑ πολεμου· ηοπερ Επηοροσ πηὑσιν, ηὑ γαρ ταχισ ηὑ τὀν πλὑμμυριδὀν και το τὑν επικλυζομενὑν ψηὀραν ειναι γνὀριμον ουκ εμελλε τοιαυτασ τασ ατοπιασ παρεχειν, δισ γαρ ηεκαστὑσ ηὑμερασ τουτου συμβαινοντοσ το μὑδ᾿ ηαπαχ αιστηανεστηαι πηυσικὑν ουσαν τὑν παλιρροιαν και αβλαβὑ· και ου μονοισ τουτοισ συμβαινουσαν αλλα τοισ παρὀκεανιταισ πασι· πὀσ ουκ απιτηανον" ουδε Κλειταρψηοσ ευ; πηὑσι γαρ τουσ ηιππεασ ιδοντασ τὑν επηοδον του πελαγουσ απηιππασαστηαι και πηευγοντασ ενγυσ γενεστηαι του περικαταλὑπητηὑναι, ουτε δε τοσουτὀι ταψηει τὑν επιβασιν ηορμὀμενὑν ηιστορουμεν· αλλα λελὑτηοτὀσ προσιουσαν τὑν τηαλατταν; ουτε το κατη᾿ ηὑμεραν γινομενον και πασιν εναυλον ὑδὑ ον τοισ πλὑσιαζειν μελλουσι πριν ὑ τηεασαστηαι· τοσουτον εμελλε παρεχεστηαι πηοβον ηὀστε πηευγειν· ηὀσ αν ει εχ αδοκὑτου προσεπεσε,

Rendering

On one hand some information about the Kimbri, is not well validated, while other reports are more convincing, although not without limits. Unacceptable is the explanation that some attribute the origin of their wandering and piratical nature. That when residing on the peninsula, they were driven out by a great random wave from the sea (a) and yet still hold this territory as it was in earlier times. As a gift they sent to Sebastoi, who is the same self Augustus, a divine caldron, asking that if deemed worthwhile a new start, amnesty, and friendship with bygone transgressions removed to last a lifetime in natural laugher. It was agreed that if perchance one was provoked by aggression the other would in haste be likewise obligated to respond.

They departed this place the very image of harmony at a time not to overshoot the tide that was extended in slack and ready to recede, as perarranged, into the ocean in the manner that it normally happens. Thus it is incorrect to say the sea tides were the tool that caused the Kimbri to rise up and move, nor that anyone as fearless as the Kelts fashion homes that are dashed by deluge, the remains only to be rebuilt.

Nor those that claim this phenomenon results in more death from water than battle, as Ephoros says. The order of the sea tides and extent of tidal flows are well known and not held as extraordinary. That this phenomenon occurs not once, but twice is seen as the natural and harmless daily reflux of water, and not an isolated event that likewise happens everywhere, in a way by no means unlikely. Nor is Kleitarchos right, in declaring that when horsemen seeing the sea’s advance rode away in full flight only to be nearly consumed by the water.

Critically, it could not to be so high and swift in approach, as otherwise its advance would be imperceptible. Nor would the calm of the receding tide be a pleasure to be near in thought or view, as being so large one is held in readiness to flee in flight, if thus so undecided that it may unexpectedly strike.

[2]
ταυτα τε δὑ δικαιὀσ επιτιμαι τοισ συνγραπηευσι Ποσειδὀνιοσ και ου κακὀσ εικαζει· διοτι λὑιστρικοι οντεσ και πλανὑτεσ ηοι Κιμβροι και μεψηρι τὀν περι τὑν Μαιὀτιν ποιὑσαιντο στρατειαν· απ᾿ εκεινὀν δε και ηο Κιμμεριοσ κλὑτηειὑ Βοσποροσ· ηοιον Κιμβρικοσ· Κιμμεριουσ τουσ Κιμβρουσ ονομασαντὀν τὀν Ηελλὑνὀν, πηὑσι δε και Βοιουσ τον Ηερκυνιον δρυμον οικειν προτερον· τουσ δε Κιμβρουσ ηορμὑσαντασ επι τον τοπον τουτον· αποκρουστηεντασ ηυπο τὀν Βοιὀν επι τον Ιστρον και τουσ Σκορδισκουσ Γαλατασ καταβὑναι· ειτ᾿ επι Τευριστασ και Ταυρισκουσ· και τουτουσ Γαλατασ· ειτ᾿ επι Ηελουὑττιουσ· πολυψηρυσουσ μεν ανδρασ ειρὑναιουσ δε; ηορὀντασ δε τον εκ τὀν λὑιστὑριὀν πλουτον ηυπερβαλλοντα του παρ᾿ ηεαυτοισ τουσ Ηελουὑττιουσ επαρτηὑναι· μαλιστα δ᾿ αυτὀν Τιγυρινουσ τε και Τὀυγενουσ· ηὀστε και συνεχορμὑσαι, παντεσ μεντοι κατελυτηὑσαν ηυπο τὀν Ρηὀμαιὀν αυτοι τε ηοι Κιμβροι και ηοι συναραμενοι τουτοισ· ηοι μεν ηυπερβαλοντεσ τασ Αλπεισ εισ τὑν Ιταλιαν ηοι δ᾿ εχὀ τὀν Αλπεὀν,

Rendering

Because of the observed well order and precise nature of this, value is given to the correct presentation of Poseidonius, that as piratical and migrant the Kimbri even as far as the vicinity of Lake Maeotis made an expedition to move away from the place called the Cimmerian Bosporos (cattle-ford?), since the Kimbri, as the Greeks also called them Cimmeri(b). The Boii of the Hercynian Forest say when they inhabited the sacred oak groves (Bohemia)(c), the Kimbri moved on this place, to be beaten off by the Boii (d), only to come down upon the Gallic Scordisci, along the Danube, with the Teuristae and Taurisci, these also being Gallics. When they came on to the Helvetii, peaceful men rich in gold, they saw this band of robbers alongside such amassed wealth, that the Helvetii rose up, particularly the Tigurini and Toygeni, to follow on. All these were put down by the Romans, both the Kimbri and those who had followed them, some in one instance over the Alps in Italy, and the others before the Alps.

Note (a) Apparently Strabo didn't understand the very frequent North Sea quakes and tsunami effect.
Note (b) Herodus and Poseidonius reported that the Cimmerians (the Novocerkassk archaeological culture), in the approach of the Scyths, abandoned the Ukraine and migrated to Denmark to become the Cimbri. Urartian and Neo-Assyrian sources date the southern migration of the Cimmeri between 720 and 710/709 BC, initially ending with the destruction of the Phrygia and foundation of the Lydian kingdoms of Anatolia. This has a bearing on the Homeric story about Odysseus' trip to Denmark.
Note (c) In Strabo's life the Boii had abandoned Bohemia, due to their being weaken by the Cimbric invasion and later Swabian attackes. In the mid 1st century BC the Boii migrated to Gaul.
Note (d) Although the Boii claimed to have defeated the Cimbric host, it appears the opposite was true and they were forced to ransom themselves as did the Teuristae and Taurisci.

[dominique]

Note (b) Herodus and Poseidonius reported that the Cimmerians (the Novocerkassk archaeological culture), in the approach of the Scyths, abandoned the Ukraine and migrated to Denmark to become the Cimbri. Urartian and Neo-Assyrian sources date the southern migration of the Cimmeri between 720 and 710/709 BC, initially ending with the destruction of the Phrygia and foundation of the Lydian kingdoms of Anatolia. This has a bearing on the Homeric story about Odysseus' trip to Denmark.

Oh my, the greeks and romans particularly sucked at ethnogenesis...

Anyway, the Cimbri and Teutones are still a mystery to us. What were they?

Germans?

Why they had Celtic names?

Cimbri could be related to Cymru
Boiorix, Gaesorix, Morimarusa are all celtic names
Teutones from the root Teut- (people) as in Tuatha, Toutatix...

The Gundestrup Cauldron was found in Cimbria. And it's definitely Celtic.

BUT

Celts?
They were not recognized as such by the Gauls and the Romans. But even there, Romans were pretty bad in that domain.

Anyway, what we now is that they weren't Danes, since they didn't bring havarti with them in their migrations.

[blitzkrieg80]

there is no way the Danes would be anywhere near modern Denmark before the Fall of the Roman Empire... the English, Angles are thought to have inhabited the Danish islands, while Jutland by the Jutes and a whole mixture of those Low Germanic peoples (Frieslanders and Saxons too, oh my!), the Danes (this is fact) came from Skane, the southern tip of Sweden: that's why they speak East Norse rather than West Norse dialect. now when they exactly started to migrate, that is open to debate, Heorot in Beowulf could easily be based on a powerful cheiftain of which there has been found a large hall (at Lejre on Zealand) dating to the Dark Ages, but it's also still the islands and not England (Denmark) proper, as the Anglo-Saxons were continually migrating, while the Danes conquered more and more, taking a lot of land abandoned for whatever reasons, flooding or population pressure, or prospect in the British frontier.

[cmacq]

whats Herodus say about the Cimbri/Cimmeri?

Ἡροδότου Μοῦσαι
Ἱστοριῶν τετάρτη ἐπιγραφομένη Μελπομένη

HERODOTUS HISTORIES
BOOK 4

[Chapter 11]

Ἔστι δὲ καὶ ἄλλος λόγος ἔχων ὧδε, τῷ μάλιστα λεγομένῳ αὐτός πρόσκειμαι, Σκύθας τοὺς νομάδας οἰκέοντας ἐν τῇ Ἀσίῃ, πολέμῳ πιεσθέντας ὑπὸ Μασσαγετέων, οἴχεσθαι διαβάντας ποταμὸν Ἀράξην ἐπὶ γῆν τὴν Κιμμερίην (τὴν γὰρ νῦν νέμονται Σκύθαι, αὕτη λέγεται τὸ παλαιὸν εἶναι Κιμμερίων), [2] τοὺς δὲ Κιμμερίους ἐπιόντων Σκυθέων βουλεύεσθαι ὡς στρατοῦ ἐπιόντος μεγάλου, καὶ δὴ τὰς γνώμας σφέων κεχωρισμένας, ἐντόνους μὲν ἀμφοτέρας, ἀμείνω δὲ τὴν τῶν βασιλέων· τὴν μὲν γὰρ δὴ τοῦ δήμου φέρειν γνώμην ὡς ἀπαλλάσσεσθαι πρῆγμα εἴη μηδὲ πρὸ σποδοῦ μένοντας κινδυνεύειν, τὴν δὲ τῶν βασιλέων διαμάχεσθαι περὶ τῆς χώρης τοῖσι ἐπιοῦσι. [3] οὔκων δὴ ἐθέλειν πείθεσθαι οὔτε τοῖσι βασιλεῦσι τὸν δῆμον οὔτε τῷ δήμῳ τοὺς βασιλέας· τοὺς μὲν δὴ ἀπαλλάσσεσθαι βουλεύεσθαι ἀμαχητὶ τὴν χωρῆν παραδόντας τοῖσι ἐπιοῦσι· τοῖσι δὲ βασιλεῦσι δόξαι ἐν τῇ ἑωυτῶν κεῖσθαι ἀποθανόντας μηδὲ συμφεύγειν τῷ δήμῳ, λογισαμένους ὅσα τε ἀγαθὰ πεπόνθασι καὶ ὅσα φεύγοντας ἐκ τῆς πατρίδος κακὰ ἐπίδοξα καταλαμβάνειν. [4] ὡς δὲ δόξαι σφι ταῦτα, διαστάντας καὶ ἀριθμὸν ἴσους γενομένους μάχεσθαι πρὸς ἀλλήλους. καὶ τοὺς μὲν ἀποθανόντας πάντας ὑπ᾽ ἑωυτῶν θάψαι τὸν δῆμον τῶν Κιμμερίων παρὰ ποταμὸν Τύρην (καί σφεων ἔτι δῆλος ἐστὶ ὁ τάφος), θάψαντας δὲ οὕτω τὴν ἔξοδον ἐκ τῆς χώρης ποιέεσθαι· Σκύθας δὲ ἐπελθόντας λαβεῖν τὴν χώρην ἐρήμην.

Rendering

There is yet another telling, thus told so well that I particularly relay upon it. The Scyths were nomads that occupied Asia, when squeezed tight by war with the Massagetae, they passed over the river Axartes (Syr Darya? possible error as this should be the river Tanaïs [Don] or Rha [Volga]) (1) and into the Cimmerians, whom at this time dwelt in Scythia, the ancient abode of the Cimmerians. Then the Cimmerians deliberated the Scythian advance, as the enemy encamped army drew near, on the one hand they decided to depart, because they were well-strung. Yet, on the other hand the princes prevailing against the said choice of the nation, to undo that which was done, not to risk being stirred as embers in the wind. Now as the princes’ wish clashed against the nation, they could not persuade upon the noblemen, whom in assembly had decided to withdraw without giving fight and hand over everything. Thus, the princes decided to lay dead rather than flee the land, as reckoned by the number of those with honor to receive the blow from those that in shame would flee from ancestral holdings. With this resolution, as rivals they tore apart and began to fight one another. The greater wiped-out the fewer and still honored these with funeral rites, then the nation of the Cimmerians crossed the river Tyras (Dnister), their funeral mounds yet seen there, made upon their departure to venerate the dead. Then the Scyths rushed in to take an empty land.

[Chapter 12]

Καὶ νῦν ἔστι μὲν ἐν τῇ Σκυθικῇ Κιμμέρια τείχεα, ἔστι δὲ πορθμήια Κιμμέρια, ἔστι δὲ καὶ χωρῇ οὔνομα Κιμμερίη, ἔστι δὲ Βόσπορος Κιμμέριος καλεόμενος· [2] φαίνονται δὲ οἱ Κιμμέριοι φεύγοντες ἐς τὴν Ἀσίην τοὺς Σκύθας καὶ τὴν χερσόνησον κτίσαντες, ἐν τῇ νῦν Σινώπη πόλις Ἑλλὰς οἴκισται. φανεροὶ δὲ εἰσὶ καὶ οἱ Σκύθαι διώξαντες αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐσβαλόντες ἐς γῆν τὴν Μηδικὴν, ἁμαρτόντες τῆς ὁδοῦ· [3] οἱ μὲν γὰρ Κιμμέριοι αἰεὶ τὴν παρὰ θάλασσαν ἔφευγον, οἱ δὲ Σκύθαι ἐν δεξιῇ τὸν Καύκασον ἔχοντες ἐδίωκον ἐς οὗ ἐσέβαλον ἐς γῆν τὴν Μηδικήν, ἐς μεσόγαιαν τῆς ὁδοῦ τραφθέντες. οὗτος δὲ ἄλλος ξυνὸς Ἑλλήνων τε καὶ βαρβάρων λεγόμενος λόγος εἴρηται.

Rendering

Now to this day here and there in Scythia one finds an earthwork, a ford, a route of passage named Cimmeria, and a place called the Cimmerian ox-crossing: this peninsula discovered and settled as the Cimmerians fled the Scyths into Asia, and presently here the Hellas have founded the colonial city of Sinope. Its clear that the Scyths, in hot-pursuit flung themselves into Media, their dubious export missing its mark: As at this point the Cimmerians continued to flee along the sea, yet the Scyths held Mount Caucasus on the right hand and in hot-pursuit fell upon Media, into the heart of this country wkere their horrid trade congealed. Except for one other barbarous lullaby this telling is the common Greek impression.

Note: Chapter 11 outlines the migration of Cimmeri into Europe and Twelve the Cimmerian invasion of the Near East.

[Sakkura]

there is no way the Danes would be anywhere near modern Denmark before the Fall of the Roman Empire... the English, Angles are thought to have inhabited the Danish islands, while Jutland by the Jutes and a whole mixture of those Low Germanic peoples (Frieslanders and Saxons too, oh my!), the Danes (this is fact) came from Skane, the southern tip of Sweden: that's why they speak East Norse rather than West Norse dialect. now when they exactly started to migrate, that is open to debate, Heorot in Beowulf could easily be based on a powerful cheiftain of which there has been found a large hall (at Lejre on Zealand) dating to the Dark Ages, but it's also still the islands and not England (Denmark) proper, as the Anglo-Saxons were continually migrating, while the Danes conquered more and more, taking a lot of land abandoned for whatever reasons, flooding or population pressure, or prospect in the British frontier.

As far as I know, the Angles are believed to have lived south of the Jutes, at the base of the peninsula of Jutland, at least at this point in time.
Prehistoric items from that area from the 4th and 5th century show resemblance to items found in graves in England.

It may as well be that the Danes lived in Scania and perhaps the Danish islands, and then were able to expand west when the Jutes went to England along with the Angles, Saxons etc.
And since this is what other sources tell us, I think it's not entirely implausible.

[dominique]

It would fit the migration pattern.

The XXX (Iutii Anglii) pushed the Cimbri-Teutones off Denmark.
The Danes pushed the Iutii/Anglii off Denmark.

Like the Slavs/Goth/Vandals etc...

[cmacq]

Heorot in Beowulf

What about Heorot in Kent?

[cmacq]

that is open to debate, Heorot in Beowulf could easily be based on a powerful cheiftain.

I find OE a bit more work than Latin, still i've not seen a really good translation of Beowulf, yet?


[Line 64]

þa wæs Hroðgare here-spēd gyfen, wiges weorð-mynd, þæt him his wine-magas georne hyrdon, oðð-þæt seo geogoð geweox, mago-driht micel. Him on mod be-arn þæt heal-reced hatan wolde, medo-ærn micel, men gewyrcean þonne yldo bearn æfre gefrunon, ond þær on innan eall gedælan geongum ond ealdum, swylc him God sealde, buton folc-scare ond feorum gumena. Da ic wide gefrægn weorc gebannan manigre mægþe geond þisne middan-geard, folc-stede frætwan. Him on fyrste gelomp, ædre mid yldum, þæt hit wearð eal-gearo, heal-ærna mæst; scop him Heort naman se þe his wordes geweald wide hæfde. He beot ne aleh, beagas dælde, sinc æt symle. Sele hlifade, heah ond horn-geap, heaðo-wylma bad, laðan liges; ne wæs hit lenge þa gen þæt se ecg-hete aþum-sweoran, æfter wæl-niðe wæcnan scolde.


Rendering

Then was Hrothgare, given success in battle, and insight of war's-fame, so that his kin and friends obeyed him gladly, and his ban grew great, this large troupe of young retainers. Then from mind to mouth a hall-raising order rushed out, a great mead house, master built as man has never known. That there inside to young and old was given, as God gave him, except the common-lands and lives of men.

Then wide I heard this work was decreed to many nations throughout the middle-earth, to fashion this folkstead. Yet on them time happened, instantly from start to finish, til it was all-ready built, this greatest of all hall-houses; and the name Heort was made for it, and with this word might was widely swung. Here was promised no deceit, that rings be given, at the treasure feast. Towering hall high and wide-gabled, whose heated surge bids not the loathsome flame; as not yet near at hand, was oath-sworn sharp-edged hate, thus soon mortal malice would awake.


Note:
This is the end of a discussion from down below between Blitz and myself; Him on fyrste gelomp, ædre mid yldum, (them on time happened, instantly together with old age) informs the later segment, þæt hit wearð eal-gearo/gearu/géara/gearwe (so that it made all ready) does this mean 'they built it in an instant, that which was already old, and this was how the hall was made entirely ready?' otherwise what does it mean? Well Blitz, after looking at it for a bit... maybe your right and the line should be changed? I'ii change it from 'Yet time fell- fast on this human undertaking, as it had ready-stood' to 'Yet on them time happened, from start to finish in an instant, til it was all-ready built'. I hope this fix debugs the poem enough for it to still work? Much thanks to Blitz for all the help in correcting my misstake.

Heort was 'finished in an instant' as the poem emplies, because it was a late romano-british villa, no? I've seen a trailer for the new movie... it looks very 300-ish. "THIS IS SPARTA" and "I AM BEOWULF"

[blitzkrieg80]

Kent?

no, that translation is off... hold on. My translation of same text, I use literal language most of the time rather than conversion to Modern slang, btw:

"Then success in war was given to Hrothgar, glory of battle so that his retainers obeyed him until the youth, the young retainers grew up to a great band of retainers.

It occurred in his mind that he would command men to build a hall-building, a great mead-hall which the sons of men should hear of forever, and there within to share out everything to the young and old such as God gave him except public land and the lives of men.

Then I heard the work commanded to many peoples throughout the earth, the place of the people. It happened most swiftly among men that the hall-building in expected time became entirely prepared.

He created the name Heort for it, he who had power of his words far and wide, he did not fail to perform a vow and dispense rings and treasure at the banquet. The hall towered high and wide-gabled, and awaited the surgence of fire, the hostile flame, it was not then yet at hand that the sword-hate should be born of son-in-law and father-in-law after the murderous hostility."

This is exactly from the Old English... I don't know where you got some of the flowery prose, no offense. You DID comment nobody has bothered to give a good translation, so this is not really targeting you, but those who claim to be doing it right:
þæt hit wearð ealgearo = 'that it became fully prepared,' ealgearo is literally "all-ready"... and the verb wearð is 'become' so where is 'stood'? Believe it or not, in Old English there are conjunctions and such, so it's easy to know when "as/so/thus" should be included.


yeah, the new movie looks like crap, with terrible actress Angelina Jolie to seal the deal for total Hollywood sellout- yeah, Grendel's mom was hot- RETARDS!

A somewhat independent but more accurate Icelandic film coincidently with Gerald Butler (Leonidas in 300- he did that after this film) called Beowulf and Grendel, is the best we'll ever see, imo... I don't like how they did Grendel based on that idiot who wrote a book called Grendel (that book sucks- i tried to give it a chance)

I can't believe they have PLATE MAIL on Beowulf in the trailer of the new one- i mean WTF... and Anthony Hopkins as a king? I'm sorry, you have to be larger than a hobbit to be a successful warrior, nonetheless Germanic king I'm so sorry for Ray Winstone who has really sold out... it's not even his body?! it's some model- WTF! a model!? yeah right, Beowulf was a large and fleshy fellow, he carried 30 mailshirts in tow when he swam away from a failed raid in the Netherlands- no pansy model can do that!

[cmacq]

no, that translation is off... hold on:

You mean this tired old horse?

To Hrothgar was given such glory of war,
such honor of combat, that all his kin
obeyed him gladly till great grew his band
of youthful comrades. It came in his mind
to bid his henchmen a hall uprear,
a master mead-house, mightier far
than ever was seen by the sons of earth,
and within it, then, to old and young
he would all allot that the Lord had sent him,
save only the land and the lives of his men.
Wide, I heard, was the work commanded,
for many a tribe this mid-earth round,
to fashion the folkstead. It fell, as he ordered,
in rapid achievement that ready it stood there,
of halls the noblest: Heorot he named it
whose message had might in many a land.
Not reckless of promise, the rings he dealt,
treasure at banquet: there towered the hall,
high, gabled wide, the hot surge waiting
of furious flame. Nor far was that day
when father and son-in-law stood in feud
for warfare and hatred that woke again.

[blitzkrieg80]

I don't understand what you posted... did you not see my own translation yet (I did post that before I elaborated- sorry)? Maybe you were guessing I was going to copy and paste something? I read Old English. I had to pull out my translations and transcribe them... I do admit I have had guidance from an awesome professor knowledgable in Germanic though. The Old English text I am using is taken courtesy BEOWULF an edition with relevant shorter texts edited by Mitchell & Robinson. There is Old English online which is pretty cool too, but can have errors.

Him on fyrste gelomp, ǽdre mid yldum, þæt hit wearð ealgearo, healærna mǽst

Btw, if you look at the Old English and compare it to both of those translations, you can tell they're both full of crap. There is no verb "to stand" stōd/standan (or even "remain" which can be interpreted to meant that) anywhere, and Old English has specific grammar, so they aren't translating it correctly, by choice or incompetence. No offense to you, it's awesome that you read this stuff (I like it) and bother to post unlike anybody involved in the new film...

[cmacq]

good god i have to look it up again, yours is exact? right

lets go word for word order?

þa wæs Hroðgare here-spēd gyfen,
then was Hrothgare armed-success given,

dud you have?
Then success in war was given to Hrothgar,

þe his wordes geweald wide hæfde
that his (or this) word controlled (or wielded) wide to have

you have
power of his words far and wide

folc-stede is folk-stead
laðan liges is loathsome flame
sinc æt symle is treasure up at feast or at treasure feast

but in the end your rendering is very good, but just not at all like a poem?

as you understand translating's an art and beowulf's a poem, right? that means it should read and sound, like an english poem, no?

and right, wearð (from weorð[an]) eal-gearo actually is -[to be] made all ready- an old british/us american phrase, read-made, which in this case I assumed, since its a building, means ready-stood

son-in-law and father-in-law means oath-sworn
this is about a future struggle between Hrothgare and his nephew which results in the burning of Heorot.

Thanks for the help, but aren't you even going to comment on the 'What about Heorot in Kent', england, thingie?

greek's wordy but because of spelling and ambiguity of meaning did i say how much work OE is?

[blitzkrieg80]

Ok, much of what you say can work and is all well and good, and I'm sure I came off rude and snotty, but I won't apologize since you have returned the favor. It is true I did rephrase things, so I shouldn't have put 'literal' ( yeah- moment) because I wasn't paying attention that I was writing my better phrased to Modern English version... normally I like it in the sense of totally literal, but I jumped ahead to write it for others, so I'll show you what I mean.

if you want to be technical, let's use the ACTUAL words in the poem, taken from a manuscript and not an online file: including long vowels, word for word:

þā wæs Hrōðgāre herespēd gyfen
"then was Hrothgar (accusitive) army-success (nominative, singular) given"

'armed'? sorry, Old English doesn't work like that.


se þe his wordes geweald wīde hæfde
"he who his word's (genitive, singular) power (noun, nominative, accusative, singular) [far and] wide (adverb) had"

you say 'to have' but that is incorrect. habban is the infinitive form, sometimes formed in conjuction with tō. this verb is inflected 3rd person singular preterate.


folcstede is "folk-stead": is it? does that mean middangeard is Midgard? it is and it isn't. context is important. we're not talking about an English homestead, or Norse mythology


lāðan līges can be "loathsome flame" (correct- for literal translation) there are many synonyms


sinc æt symle
"treasure (accusative singular) at banquest/feast (dative singular)"
do you see the difference? a direct object is different from an indirect object. grammar is important, this isn't English and syntactical, it is inflected language, Germanic, like any other


wearð (from weorðan) means "come about, happen"- usually not "be" unless used as an auxilary with a past participle of another verb for passive voice... esp. in Beowulf. Since it "became" ready then your whole argument doesn't make sense, especially using anachronistic slang.


so you have proven my comment on 'literal translations' to be incorrect, since i didn't do literal, which i admit I was, as I stated above... BUT

FACT: you can't use modern English or even Middle English phrases just because you like them. To interpret what you want in that way, it's not based IN GRAMMAR (those endings are not for show), which means you CAN if you want but it's not based on anything academic, or accepted by scholars who work in the area. Try taking a university course in Old English, since you like to translate, I think you'd enjoy it. I personally enjoyed it and took many courses specifically in it in graduate school, along with other Germanic languages.

[cmacq]

Anthony Hopkins as a king. bloody Welshman king of the south or was that east Danes, that’s ironic? Welsh; all foreigners in a foreign homeland. Hopkins, wasn't he that angry prince richard, the boy-lover, in 'winter' with that o'tool guy?

Aye, we have us a syntax guy? must be that German outspeaking?

Blitz... i can call you Blitz, right?
It’s late as just got back form a dinner date. That dark haired girl either hates the hell out of me, or wants me bad?
Good god your making my brain hurt, this' getting so tedious.
Remember I’m the one that never said... my rendition was literal, just close and poetic in form.

Let's call this little soiree... project Harbinger
and the first rule of project Heerbringer is...
you don’t talk about project Heerbringer

Right?

Let’s just polish us some turds then, OE structured... and OE syntax, right...?
BTW can you please tell me what's the Rosetta Stone (not Rosetta Rune) for OE?

Ok...first it’s all my bad, yes indeed.... I’m sorry to the point that extends far beyond the pale. Because my bad is so distant, maybe you’re not seeing where I’m coming from? So, like some long bygone sluagh, sometimes ya just have 'suck it up' get your wind, and go the extra '500 miles.'

I know.... Heer means army, but-
army's from O.Fr. armée, from M.L. armata "armed force," from L. armata, fem. of armatus, pp. of armare "to arm," lit. "act of arming," related to arma "tools, arms.

so... because Army lit. means 'those who are armed,' your saying the word Army is not the same as Heer, yes?

your right about hæfde, it's had, to have, was stupid of me, again my bad.

folcstede (big habitation site, village, or common ethnic town, none work poetically) not the same as middangeard, as you know it's middle-earth/ground? whatever that is?

Not really getting this one.... i understand the form... sinc æt symle. didn't i write 'treasure up at feast' your saying 'treasure up at' as in 'cowboy up?'
sinc (treasure, riches, gold, silver, valuables, jewel) æt/oþ/áte/oð (f (-an/-an) oats; wild oats, tares [prep] to, up to, as far as; temporal, until, to, unto; conj until; before) symle/syml/symbel(or adv) simbel (feast-day, festivity, revel, feast, festival, holy day, solemn office; or always, continually)
It can't be rendered in modern english as 'at [the] treasure-feast?' wheres the rhythm, right?

Also not real getting this...wearð (from weorðan) means "come about, happen"- usually not "be" unless used as an auxilary with a past participle of another verb for passive voice... esp. in Beowulf.

wearð can be 'made', so it can't be made all ready?

doesn't, Him (pron him, them; dative singular of hé) on ([local] on, upon, on to; up to, among; in, into, within; (temporal) in, during, at, on, about; against, towards; according to, in accordance with, in respect to; for, in exchange for) fyrste/fyrst/first (m [-es/-as], n [-es/-] period, space of time, time, respite, truce; adj first; foremost, principal, chief; adv in the first place, firstly, at first, originally) gelomp/geléom/gelimp (happened, occured, existed; belonged to, suited, befitted; concerned), ædre (adv at once, directly, instantly, forthwith, quickly; fully, entirely) mid (prep w.d.i. with, in conjunction with, in company with, together with; into the presence of; through, by means of, by; among, in; at [time]; in the sight of, opinion of) yldum/ieldum/ieldu (age, period of time, one of the six ages of the world; period; age, time of life, years; mature or old age, old; age, old age, old people, chief people; an age of the world)

what a mess...

not getting this..... maybe not?
Since it "became" ready then your whole argument doesn't make sense, especially using anachronistic slang. ...what argument?


Him on fyrste gelomp, ædre mid yldum, (them on time happened, instantly together with old age) informs the later segment, þæt hit wearð eal-gearo/gearu/géara/gearwe (so that it made all ready) does this mean 'they built it in an instant, that which was already old, and this was how the hall was made entirely ready?' otherwise what does it mean?

any comment?

well Blitz, after looking at it for a bit...
maybe your right and the line should be changed?

did i say how much i'm not liking OE?


Meanwhile…
On the last episode of battlestar galactica …

http://www.searchforvideo.com/watchc...hris-farley%2F

[cmacq]

BEOWULF IN KENI?

can anyone out there please answer me this?

(1) from where did beowulf depart when he went to Heorot island?
(2) what did beowulf follow to get to Heorot island?
(3) and...what were the lines that mark beowulf first sight, from the sea, of Heorot island?

[cmacq]

Ancient Texts can only take you so far

There appears to be somewhat of a problem with the Homeric story about Odysseus' trip to hell’s door as therein the Kimbri/Cimmeri are found in Denmark. However, I’m really not sure exactly where the problem is? Preceding the Scyth invasion, Herodus reported that the Cimmeri (the Novocerkassk archaeological culture) abandoned the Ukraine and migrated west into greater Europe and south into the Near East, where they appeared under the ever watchful eye of the Neo-Assyrians. In the later theater the Cimmeri savaged the Urartian kingdoms of Armenia, destroyed Phrygia, and helped found Lydia while establishing their own base of operations in western Anatolia. Within the Near East the second phase of the Cimmeri invasion, which lasted for decades, consisted of a series of deep, large-scale, and very rapid raids. The Neo-Assyrians indicate that the initial phase of the southern Cimmeri invasion occurred between 720 and 710/709 BC.

Returning to the Homeric story of Odysseus' trip to Denmark, the poem itself was transcribed between 800 and 600 BC. The subject of the poem, Odysseus, is widely believed to have been a Late Bronz Age Myceanean chieftain. Conventional wisdom would place his life sometime in the early twelfth or late thirteenth century BC. Given the dates of Cimmeri migration from the Ukraine, and Odysseus’ life there seems to be a several hundred year discrepancy. So does this mean, more questions?

(1) Was the Odysseus trip to Denmark a fiction?
(2) Was the Cimbri/Cimmeri connection a fiction?
(3) Was the Homeric poem written after the Cimmeri migration and simply applied the name to the Bronze Age people of Denmark?
(4) Were the Cimbri in Denmark during the Late Bronze Age?
(5) Are there any material culture connections between Denmark and the Ukraine in either the late Bronze or Early Iron ages that may suggest a large ethnic migration from the former to the later?

[Sakkura]

(5) Are there any material culture connections between Denmark and the Ukraine in either the late Bronze of Early Iron ages that may suggest a large ethnic migration from the former to the later?

Good question. Someone should go digging for lurs and sun chariots in the Ukraine

[cmacq]

Landwalker...

i've been reading
and...

in Jordanes', Getica, was it largely based in part on the now a lost text, written about 530 AD, by Cassiodorus? Jordanes referred to other authors as well; Ptolemy and Mela to place Scandza (Sweden/Norway), which he identified as an island. It appears herein that he was adding to Ptolemy's seven tribes? Right, the point... well he mentioned 29 tribes in all, one he called the Dani, whom he says they took their homeland from a group called the Heruli. The question is... could these Heruli/Herules, who once lived in southern Sweden, be the same the Harudes, in DenmarK? As you know the Charude/Harude are one in the same. They are recorded as next to the Cimbri, but just seem to disappear sometime after Tactitus.

Were the Harude both in Denmark and south Sweden, or did they abandon Denmark for Sweden? A bit against the grain, the later makes little sense?

Charude/Harude/Hard-syssel District

The Getica seems to complex to have been a fiction?

[cmacq]

Didn't know that much about Danish Archaeology. Sakkura what do you know about the Ringkøbing Museum?