Romans In Denmark.

[Sakkura]

Didn't know that much about Danish Archaeology. Sakkura what do you know about the Ringkøbing Museum?

I didn't know much about it except it's very small. I checked their website and they seem to have a focus on Germanic Iron Age in general, with a dig near Ringkøbing in the winter 2006/7 with participation from archaeologists from Aarhus University (that's my university )

[cmacq]

Aarhus University (that's my university )

thats Artus in east jutland, right? They have a good anthro department. Artus' an old viking town, right?

don't know Danish, but know german. surprised how similar Danish is to english. i could read most of their webpage.

their webpage said they've conducted excavations at these sites:
(1) Lyngsmose:
(2) Stenaldervej:
(3) Jernaldervej

all in west Jutland right? I found their locations on the map.
on their webpage i couldn't find what they dated these to.
based on their architectural plans, i'm assuming pre-roman iron-age.
did their webpage say?

[Sakkura]

Yeah, it's Århus in eastern Jutland. Known as Aros to the vikings

1. Lyngsmose (=heather bog) is located 10 kilometers northeast of Ringkøbing. (which is on the western coast of Jutland).
The site was a settlement with a moat which was bristling with pointed stakes. The settlement consisted of 15 longhouses (housing both animals and humans under one roof) and two smaller houses. The settlement is dated to around 100 BC.
There's an aerial photo in the pdf file (marked fig. 11) that shows the outline of that moat, amazing that it's visible even after thousands of years.

2. Stenaldervej (=stone age road) is a road in the northern part of Ringkøbing itself. I guess the archaeological dig came about when the town was about to expand.
Settlement dated to younger Roman iron age and older Germanic iron age (200-550 AD) based on pottery and the form of the houses.

3. Jernaldervej (=iron age road) is basically right next to Stenaldervej. The houses there are dated to 600-800 AD, so the end of the Germanic iron age and the beginning of the viking age.

[cmacq]

Yeah, it's Århus in eastern Jutland. Known as Aros to the vikings

.

much thanks

It seems you Danes have investigated a relatively large number of Iron-Age sites.
This is interesting, as the domestic architecture, which is a rather conservative cultural trait, appears consistent throughout the pre-roman (cimbric) iron-, and germanic iron ages. This type was used from Holland to Jutland. These pre-roman/germanic iron age longhouses were replaced, by norse types.
There's something strange going on here?
This is going to take some time to write up.
i'll get back to ya.

Also Lyngsmose, the lyngs, as in heather, is similar to Lungus, the name recorded for a Cimbric king. it seems that their kings took, as a title, the name of the tribe they ruled. Maybe there was an unrecorded Cimbric subtribe called the Lunges that occupied the Ringkøbing area?

[Sakkura]

When parts of Jutland were cleared of wood (it had originally been almost fully forested), the landscape usually ended up as heathland, basically an expanse of little heather shrubs and the like. I guess this would be especially likely to happen around population centers. So it might make sense that peoples or rulers in Jutland somehow became associated with heather (lungus/lyng). At least the idea sounds cool in theory

[cmacq]

heather (lungus/lyng). At least the idea sounds cool in theory

Sakkura,
something about that Lung. Could the word 'Lung' be from the Norse 'Lung' which was a possible loan word from latin ([navis]-Longa; war-ship) or welsh (Llong-Longâ; ship). Also Gaelic Long-ship. Could this be an adapted Cimbic word for ship to the Danish word for a low bush? Also in Welsh Llwyn-mawn means bush bog.

I know the ON words for ship:

Eik
Gjalfrmarr
Kjoll
Knorr
skip

I know the ON used eik for both ship and tree. So this lung may be from latin or some form of Kelt, at first Lyngsmose possible Lunges-moss (Moss was sometimes used for Peat) meaning ship- or boat-bog? Boats have been found in Denmark's bogs, right?

right i see now

Sten-alder-vej
stone-auld(scotts [a form of OE still used in lowland scotland] old or older)-way
Jern-alder-vej
iron-auld(er)-way

ps- I fixed the beowulf on page 3 of this thread

[cmacq]

The state of Cimbric archaeology

District:
Himmerland-Kimmerland

Site Name:
Borremose Village

Date: Pre-Roman Iron Age ca. 300 to 100 BC; ceramic dating
Location: Fæstningen N 56°46’48” E 09°34’03.9” Located within southern most part of Borremose bog, on what was a small island about 100 meters north of dry land.

Site Function: Medium-sized, Defensive Hamlet.

Site Structure: Approximately all or portions of 34 Longhouses, many of which were superimposed, surrounded by a large defensive ditch the bottom lined with closely spaced rows of short sharpened-stakes. The inter edge of the ditch was traced by an embankment that was top by a timber palisade. The ditch and embankment outline a large bow-shaped enclosure. A large open area on the east interior of the enclosure suggests a stock-yard. A break in the southern end of the embankment indicates the presence of a gate, were a stone-paved causeway three m wide once connected the enclosure to dry land found 100 m away, at the southern end of the Borremose Bog.

Residential Architecture: standard Pre-Roman Iron Age architecture as found in Denmark. Longhouses have a rectangular plan, with long-axis oriented about 90 degrees, average 12 m length by four m width, interior area averaging 48 m², compacted dirt and/or clay plastered floors, with a circular clay-lined hearth. Twenty-three of the houses had either a low rock or turf foundation, with timbered; frames, roofs, and upper walls; two opposing break-in-wall entries with rock-paved steps centered on the long-walls.

Artifacts: ?

Rendition: The site was occupied for several generation in the 4th and late 2nd century BC. It appears to have been a Cimbric small to medium-sized Defensive Hamlet, with a possible population of about 120 people. This settlement is very similar to Lyngsmose Village, found in western Jutland. The longhouses appear to represent the residential focus of large-nuclear or small-extended families and their associated stock animals. The abandonment of Borremose Village may have been tied to the Cimbric migration.

Status: tested in 1929 and partly excavated by NMC in 1935 and late 1940s, more recent research continued between 1988 and 1991. Today the site has been stabilized and serves as a tourist attraction.

Photo of Site



Note on Site Name
Borremose
Borre; possibly related to Early Irish borr meaning knob, which is also related to the word top, Irish bárr, Old Irish barr, Welsh, Cornish bar, and Breton barr?

[Sakkura]

Sakkura,
something about that Lung. Could the word 'Lung' be from the Norse 'Lung' which was a possible loan word from latin ([navis]-Longa; war-ship) or welsh (Llong-Longâ; ship). Also Gaelic Long-ship. Could this be an adapted Cimbic word for ship to the Danish word for a low bush? Also in Welsh Llwyn-mawn means bush bog.

I know the ON words for ship:

Eik
Gjalfrmarr
Kjoll
Knorr
skip

I know the ON used eik for both ship and tree. So this lung may be from latin or some form of Kelt, at first Lyngsmose possible Lunges-moss (Moss was sometimes used for Peat) meaning ship- or boat-bog? Boats have been found in Denmark's bogs, right?

Hmm, it's an interesting thought at least. But I don't think I'm qualified to give the answer.
Adopting a Celtic word would make sense since iron age Denmark shows definitely Celtic influence on many things.

Eik became the word for oak, or maybe already was in ON. Knorr/knarr was the name of a specific type of ship, a trading vessel. In any case, oak seems to be the preferred type of wood used for constructing ships both before and during the viking age, probably the reason the name is used for both.

A ship was found in a bog called Nydam (=New pond) near the German border, apparently dated to 315 AD by dendrochronology. So at least the idea of putting a ship in a lake or bog was not too distant for these people. Lots of other things were sacrificed in lakes/bogs as well.
The vikings later sometimes put ships in burial mounds, or stones set in the shape of ships when they couldn't fit in a real ship.

[cmacq]

A Cimbric/Cimmeri Connection?

I never understood the possible connection before. The La Tene Culture is widely understood as the hallmark of the Keltic Culture. However, preceding this, was the Hallstatt Culture, which represents the ethno-genesis of a proto-Kelt/Balt/Italic tradition. The Hallstatt Culture lay astride the Northern European Late Bronze and Early Iron ages, roughly covering the period between 1200 to 500 BC. It is further divided into four phases; Hallstatt A and B 1200–800, Hallstatt C 800–600, and Hallstatt D 600–500 BC.

Now,the Hallstatt C phase is interesting as it covers the beginning of the European Iron Age. Its represented by the introduction of iron in general and new types of sword blades. This phase was also marked by the creation and east to west spread of fortified settlements similar to the Bossemore site in Denmark. This is also roughly the period that the Cimmeri abandoned the Ukraine.



more to follow

[cmacq]

A Cimbric/Cimmeri Connection? cont

Apparently, the dominate traits of the Hallstatt C phase (iron artifacts and weapons, as well as, ditch-palisade fortified settlements) were not restricted to the greater Hallstatt Culture Area (initially centered on Austria with an eastern zone that included Croatia, Slovenia, western Hungary, Austria, Moravia region of the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and a western zone that included northern Italy, Switzerland, eastern France, southern Germany, and the Bohemia region of the Czech Republic).

To the north and east (centered on Poland) the Lusatian Archaeological Culture (1300 to 500 BC) experienced a similar development around 700 BC. By far the finest example of this expression can be found at Biskupin (often referenced as the ‘Polish Pompeii’). This particular site experienced an extremely high state of preservation.

Photo of the reconstructed Biskupin gate



It seems the 7th century introduction of Iron working and building-rash of a specific defensive site-type, within the eastern Hallstatt and Lusatian culture areas, roughly correspond to the date the Near Eastern sources provided for the Cimmeri abandonment of the Ukraine (ca. 720 BC). Another similar rash of fort building occurred within the same general culture areas at the beginning of Northern European (NE) Late Bronze Age (1300/1200 BC). These site types appear to have been associated with the genesis the various expressions of a pan Urn Field like Archaeological Culture or a proto-Kelt/Balt/Italic cultural tradition.

The beginning of the NE Late Bronze Age was also marked by evidence of widespread warfare and large scale demographic movements. Similar events were attested to have extended far south and east as found in well known Near Eastern texts and cultural assemblages. Although, the NE phenomena may help define the nature of an ethno-genesis, the scale and scope indicate they were related to long term Global Climate Cycles (a period of global-cooling between approximately 1200 and 600 BC). As the pan-Urn Field expression progressed we see the emergence of individual proto-Kelt, Balt, and Italic traditions.

In contrast, the late 8th and early 7th century Hallstatt C and Late Lusatian phenomenon as outlined above initially appear localized and progressed in a specific manner. At this point a possible Cimbric/Cimmeri connection is a matter of pure speculation. However, what is clear is that the phenomena associated with the Hallstatt C and Late Lusatain culture phases had a direct impact on the formation of both continental Kelt and southwestern Balt traditions. Yet, in order to provide a more precise outline of this requires a closer inquiry of the Romanian Late Bronze and Early Iron ages.

[Frostwulf]

To my knowledge the Cimmerian/Cimbri connection has no modern supporters, is there some that you know of?

[cmacq]

None, not even myself. Partly, due to a prevailing revisionist and minimalist attitude. Another problem element is the assumption that Deutsch speaking Germans have always been present within Germany. This however is a far more remote possibility than is the Cimbric/Cimmeri connection. Yet, the 'Deutsche immer in Deutschland' school has many current adherents as it has had in a more infamous past (its only the 'Englisch Sprecher' that call 'Deutschland'... the ancient Latin name Germania/Germany)? A possible case of 'ein deutsches Teil, schütteln den ein Alter Skandinavier hund.' Sounds better in English.

On face value the Greek claim seems very unlikely at best, however there is something strange going on here? And... it seems the more information I amass, the stranger it gets. Overall, I have to admit I'm a little struck by the insistence of the modern community that there was no such connection and the Classical Greeks' claim that there was. In a way it reminds one of Schliemann, Homeric poems, and Troy, except there's no Schliemann, no Homer, or no Troy.

Still, one may return to the title of this tread 'Romans In Denmark.'
Indeed, both the Classical Greeks and Romans traveled great distances to find themselves from time to time in Denmark. And... the reason for this fact was actually quite simple.... Amber. Would a Cimmeri trip to Denmark be any less likely? I for one do not know? Yet, it seems only fitting to say, "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[blitzkrieg80]

where were the Germans if not in Germany, even if on the coast?! is the theory that they were so dense in the head that they went North into colder and more hostile lands, even though they were already South? then went SOUTH again? that's A LOT of population pressure.

that's like Indo-Europeans migrating from Anatolia UP into the steppe and going EAST then coming back down from the steppe back into Europe from which they came- that doesn't make any sense either.

we don't know much of anything of the Cimmerians.
we don't know much of anything of the Cimbri.
There is absolutely no apparent linguistic connection between the two except a coincidence in letters- there could be, but there is no proof of it.

it is really cool that you're making connections, because as you mention, most of academia is entirely too conservative (until knocked over the head wrong), but it has to be. the fun stuff is what you're doing, so keep doing what you're doing.

[cmacq]

Blitz, wie ist es Ihnen denn so ergangen?

Jedoch, Ihre Frage ist sehr gut.
Das kommt darauf…


No harm, no foul but, aah… you know I’m a professional Archaeologist, right? I live and work in the American Southwest. In fact, I’m due back in the field for a day on Friday. The focus of my current research is the central Arizona uplands in the 12th-15th centuries AD. This, by the way is the period of increased Northern Mexican influence followed by mass abandonments and migrations.

When I returned to the profession after the military, the dogma of the general archaeological community was that everything prehistoric was a product of ‘in situ’ development. This was for all intent and purposes the law of the land in the early 90s. Today, the pendulum has swung and now all the dunderheads can say is ‘warfare’ and ‘migration.’ Unfortunately, I’m in no small way somewhat responsible for this. It seems once you get the ball rolling its difficult to control where its going to go.

Getting to how your point… transects with what I’m now working on, it seems a significant mechanism of causality is climate. The mega SW drought of the late 13th century (AD 1275 to 1295) has been well documented through tree-rings since the late 1930s. However, I found out about the greater climate change issue while trying to find the current (mid 90s) corrective curve formulas for SW radiocarbon dates.

Other than the general RC theory, the reasons for the corrective curves (as at the time a new one appeared nearly every year) were not generally taught, as far as anthropology was concerned. Not really sure if that’s changed, as so much money is involved in RC dating and related research? I’m sure it hasn’t.

The thing is, there was a problem with all RC samples that dated after the late 13th century. It was as if the results all flat-lined the curve. Naturally, I researched it further and found an huge body of literature related to the actual mechanics of how C-14 works and why it doesn’t work well as a dating method. Not to get too detailed, but the real problem occurs when the Global climate changes from warm and wet, to cool and dry. It appears that between the late 1200’s and AD 1300 the Global climate thus changed. You may have heard of the Mini- or Little Ice Age (this ended around AD 1850), and the preceding European Warm Period (AD 600/700-1300).

Getting back to your question, ‘where were the Germans if not in Germany, even if on the coast?! is the theory that they were so dense in the head that they went North into colder and more hostile lands, even though they were already South? then went SOUTH again? that's A LOT of population pressure.’

Indeed…

Yet apparently, the Global climate change outlined above seems to be part of a much longer term pattern. Overall this pattern can be described as cyclical, again a rapid shift from warm and wet, to cold and dry each phase of which extents about 600 years. I know this hasn’t been well disseminated to the general public or pop culture, but they’re teaching this in school now, right?

Returning again to your question, the German or Nordic language group of the Indo-Euro complex is generally perceived as an extreme member.
This was the best IE tree I could find on the web.

http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/m...ha6oS-jFqGDF2-

The point is that at one point (possibly the MBA, no one knows for sure) Kelt, Balt, Italic, and German/Nordic were all similar elements within a single language tradition. What followed was the German/Nordic complex split from the Kelt, Balt, Italic mainstream. The German/Nordic branch goes on to include by far the largest percent of non-IE load words, many which do not appear in any of the other three major groupings.

Where this may have happened no one knows for sure because the load words came from one or more languages that did not survive to be documented. My guess would be that this happened somewhere in relative isolation from other IE types, like northern Scandinavia (largely Sweden and Norway). Next the other three language groups split to become individual traditions ( I propose at the beginning of the NE LBA, around 1200 BC).

It is possible that as a unit the groups that would become German/Nordic had relocated to northern Scandinavia during a warm and wet period only to return to the centennial mainstream with their linguistic adaptation (possibly a form of proto-Norse that became Old Norse and Germanic) during a cold and dry period.

It’s just a theory, but if you do the math it makes sense. Remember even the current conventional wisdom has almost on evidentiary basis.

[blitzkrieg80]

nice explanation! you are totally correct about the temperature change cycle- don't let the pseudo-environmentalists hear you say that those who buy over-large houses to heat and "hybrids" all for status while claiming superiority and going to a rock concert "for awareness", patting each other on the back, as they drive around on vacation for fun, as if wasting oil is a past-time... all the while, money is funneled into a charity whose only purpose is to make you worry about how the Earth continues as usual, except it's in a manner we don't like...

i am no fan of the Southwest, having lived in Reno, Nevada most of my life but that is neither here nor there... arg, the dryness of the Great Basin!

what i find interesting about the Substrate Hypthosis concerning Germanic languages is the Old Norse relationship of the Vanir and the Aesir who had a war but then intermarried, this relationship is very interesting concerning possibly native non-Indo-European fertility cults and the Nerthus Cult- with fertility twins, Freyr and Freya whose father is Njord (thought to be the male twin counterpart to Nerthus), also Freyr was a very important god before Norse times as seen in the language of Frea in Old English as "God". It is interesting that Freya would have half of the Slain in Heaven, a homage to the original "Lord" god later worshipped as a separate aspect from his sister in Ingvi-Freyr in Sweden.

[cmacq]

nice explanation! you are totally correct about the temperature change cycle.

So, they are teaching this in school now? If so, great as I've been watching this Global Warming craz develop on TV over the last three years and quite frankly, I can't believe the utter insanity.

what i find interesting about the Substrate Hypthosis concerning Germanic languages is the Old Norse relationship of the Vanir and the Aesir who had a war but then intermarried, this relationship is very interesting concerning possibly native non-Indo-European fertility cults and the Nerthus Cult- with fertility twins, Freyr and Freya whose father is Njord (thought to be the male twin counterpart to Nerthus), also Freyr was a very important god before Norse times as seen in the language of Frea in Old English as "God". It is interesting that Freya would have half of the Slain in Heaven, a homage to the original "Lord" god later worshipped as a separate aspect from his sister in Ingvi-Freyr in Sweden.

You've just stepped into a realm (Norse myth) of which I know nearly nothing. I know nothing about Nerthus- what's that? Your right Freya appears in Beowulf several times, as in the opening preface about Scyld;

felahror feran on Frean wære

I remember somewhere that this Ingvi/Ing represented an even earlier form of Freyr. Right, this Ing character was a fertility deity. In the 1st centuries BC-AD it seems to be tied to the Celto-Germanic occupation of Denmark, north west Germany and part of the Low-Counties. As you'll see above in my clip of NATURALIS HISTORIAE, the Romans called this confederation the Inguaeones (followers of Ing or Ingvi?), whom they list as the Cimbri, Teutoni, and Chaucorum (another group of tribes along the northwest German coast). Was there a male counter part to Ingvi, as the northwest Kelts had a similar but male deity called Angus/Ongus (fertility and light)?

[Starforge]

So, they are teaching this in school now? If so, great as I've been watching this Global Warming craz deveople on TV over the last three years and quite frankly, I can't believe the utter insanity.

Like many religions, people come up with these "end of the world" theories. Must be a human need satisfied in there somewhere. I'm personally all for scientific facts regarding human impact on climate change and also interested in scientific facts on what we can do that would actually have a positive impact on reducing emissions. What I don't appreciate is "Repent! the end is near!" with no real or realistic solutions offered that would have any measurable or proveable scientific impact.

I can get the faith-based doom and gloom on Sunday if I choose.

Sorry for driving off topic. Enjoying the thread immensely - always informative here.

[cmacq]

we don't know much of anything of the Cimmerians.

I’m shifting subtopics on this subject a bit, as Blitz’s comments appear somewhat pertinent at this juncture.

True we know nearly nothing about the Cimmeri migration form the Ukraine; that is the Cimmeri that moved west into Western Europe. I’ll return to the textual, historic, and archaeology of the Western European Cimmeri migration. However, there are a number of important textual and historic tidbits provided by Near Eastern sources about the Cimmeri that migrated south. The Neo-Assyrians referred to the Cimmeri as the Gimirri. It’s important to note a bit of misinformation that equated the Gimirri with the Saka, as some claim of the Behistun (also called the Bisitun, Bisutun, and Bagastana) Inscription.

Photo of the Behistun Inscription



Commissioned by Darius I (522 BC to 486/485 BC in Greek Δαρεῖος) around 515 BC, the Behistun document, is located in Kermanshah province, Iran. Its a large cliff-face engraved inscription in Old Persian, Elamic, and Akkadian cuneiform scripts. Some claim that the use of Saka herein was a reference to the Gimirri. This is simply not the case, as the inscription addressed the major political ethnicities the Achaemenid Persians considered vassal states. Although the Gimirri people still survived, by the time the Behistun document was written, they had not formed a discrete political identity for just over a century.

[Watchman]

While very little may be known for sure of the Cimmerians pushed westwards, I would think it safe to assume they followed the well enough known patterns of later nomadic peoples pushed out of the Ukrainian steppe by pressure from the East; that is, they would have withdrawn southwest along the semi-steppe of the Black Sea coastline and eventually into the Great Hungarian Plain, a longtime final stop and ecological trap for steppe nomads drifting westwards.

Why in the world they would have gone northwest, into the endless dark forests of Germania and eventually the Baltic coastline, a type of terrain diametrically opposed to the lifestyle and method of warfare of the steppe peoples and typically rife with not very accommodating locals, I find difficult to fathom.

[cmacq]

While very little may be known for sure of the Cimmerians pushed westwards, I would think it safe to assume they followed the well enough known patterns of later nomadic peoples pushed out of the Ukrainian steppe by pressure from the East; that is, they would have withdrawn southwest along the semi-steppe of the Black Sea coastline and eventually into the Great Hungarian Plain, a longtime final stop and ecological trap for steppe nomads drifting westwards.

Why in the world they would have gone northwest, into the endless dark forests of Germania and eventually the Baltic coastline, a type of terrain diametrically opposed to the lifestyle and method of warfare of the steppe peoples and typically rife with not very accommodating locals, I find difficult to fathom.

Very good question, but l’ll finish the southern migration subtopic first, then address that issue.

Returning the Neo-Assyrian records, we have the names of several Cimmeri kings. First, is the middle 7th century BC king called in Greek Lygdamis (aka in Assyrian Tugdamme). Interestingly, in Early Irish we have lúgdám [es] (descended from Lug). Lug/Lugh (aka Lug Lamfada, Lug Long Arms), being a Kelt god of light, also later known to the Norse as Lokka/Loki.

Next, we have Teushapa/Teusapa (mentioned around 680-670 BC), possibly the root Teu is similar to the Gallic Teuto-people, Old Welsh tud-people, Old Prussian tauto-land, and sapa, as in the Irish saor, Welsh saer, Cornish sair: *sairo-s, from *sapiro-s, root sap, skill, Latin sapio, sapientia, wisdom, Anglo-Saxon sefa, understanding. Thus, Teusapa [es], may have meant ‘of the wise people.’

[cmacq]

The mid 7th century Cimmeri king Getmalor, is a little more work. The Get- segment may represent a usage similar to that found in the Gallic cin-geto (marching-men/spearmen or infantry), and malor (possibly Old Irish mala [brow] and orr [prayer]. Therefore, Getmalor or Getomalorr[es] may have meant something like ‘of the divine-minded men?

Finally, we have the Cimmeri king names of Almadion and Diluglion. Almadion appears to represent, All (from Middle Irish all, aill, al-no-s, root al meaning nobleman) and madion (from Early Irish medrach: medro meaning joyous), or Allmedro[nes] ‘of joyous nobility?’ Diluglion is a bit clearer, as it seems to be similar to Early Irish, Di-Lug-Lio[nes] or, ‘of the day Lug moves (or shines).’

What do these names mean? Similarities to early Kelt, Balt, and Italic suggest the Cimmeri language was more closely related to the Western European (WE) IE groups than to those associated with the central Asian IE groups (ie. Indo-Iranian). Of course this makes little sense as we know that members associated with the various Greek languages, would have passed through the Ukrainian steppe on their way to Greece, possibly in the late Early Bronze Age.

Current theory suggests that it was this proto-Greek group that was responsible for driving the WE IE groups further west into Europe. However, there are two other possibilities. The first is that the proto-Greek passage of the Ukraine was extremely rapid and relatively nonconfrontational. The other possibility is that the passage was aggressive, rapid, and the districts affected were quickly backfilled with other WE IE types situated immediately to the north.

Regardless, two points may be made. First, the EBA proto-Greek passage of the Ukraine was indeed rapid. In fact there is no physical or textual evidence this event actually occurred. Second, the Cimmeri king names preserved in Greek and Near Eastern records indicate that the WE IE speakers may have retained a foothold in the Ukrainian steppe until their ultimate explosion in the 1st millennium BC at the hands of the Scyths.

[cmacq]

Contemporary Records: The Initial Phase of the Southern Cimmeri Migration

Some researchers have suggested that perhaps the earliest contemporary mention of the Cimmeri can be found in a report of an Urartian military campaign conducted between the Lake Sevan and Childir. This document mentioned the Ish-qi Gu-lu (possibly meaning king or nobel 'Gu-lu'), and was dated to around 774 BC. The document has been assigned to the reign of Argishti I (Armenian meaning ‘the bright one’) who served as the king of Urartu between 786 and 764 BC. Argishti I was also responsible for a rock inscription at Granlidzha, that noted the Ish-qi Gu-lu lived in the Leninakan (formerly known as Gyumri/Kumayri) district.

Over a half century later the history of the southern Cimmeri migration was brought into sharp relief with the founder of the Sargonid dynasty, Sharru-kinu II (Akkadian: ‘legitimate king’ aka Sargon), who served as ruler of the Neo-Assyria kingdom from 722 to 705 BC. Although not specifically stated, Sharru-kinu's legitimacy as Great-Kings appears to have been questioned, as was the continued viability of the Neo-Assyrian state. His reign may be considered turbulent at best, as he was forced to cede Babylon to the Chaldeans, and later lead armies against the Egyptian, Urartian, Mannai, and Elamic kingdoms, as well as numerous rebel vassals in Syria, the Levant, and Palestine. Although it would be an understatement to say that Sharru-kinu’s kingship was eventful, he is generally considered to have been one of the most successful Neo-Assyrian rulers.

Returning to the southern Cimmeri migration, one of the most interesting sources of information comes from the bas-reliefs in Sharru-kinu’s palace (Dur-Sharru-kin). A second source is the king’s letter to Assur concerning his eighth campaign in 714 BC, which was directed against the Urartian kingdom. However, the single largest source is a series of letters written about the northern political situation authored by Sharru-kinu's intelligence service. Collectively, these documents provide the context behind the Sharru-kinu II attack on Urartu and thus, mention the Gimerii (Cimmeri) as a people within a district called Gamir.

In Letter; ABL 146, written by one Assur-resuja, we’re told that, ‘Gamir was separate from Urartu by Guriania.’ This seems to place the location of Gamir south of the Caucasus; possibly within the modern state of Georgia, north and east of the 1st millennium BC kingdoms of Urart and Mannai. Because Gamir seems to appear similar to Gimirri, some have proposed this district was the homeland of the Cimmeri and place it south of Urartu. However, this argument is largely irrelevant, as the Neo-Assyrian records clearly demonstrate the relatively sudden military appearance and destabilizing influence of a Cimmeri ethnos throughout the region that comprises historic Armenia.

Overall the letters outline an Urartian king’s (possibly Rusa I) attempt to suppress Cimmeri raids from the Gamir district. What followed was the Cimmeri appear to have outmaneuvered and annihilated an Urartian army somewhere in Gamir, possibly in 715 BC. Early the next year, Sharru-kinu II employed the Cimmeri as auxiliaries in his successful campaign against the weaken Urartians. The Cimmeri appear to have been instrumental in the defeat, near Mount Uauash in the Lake Urmia district, and subsequent death of Rusa I, possibly in 713 BC.

Next, the Assyrians note that in 709 BC Mata's (Midas) kingdom of Mushki (Phrygia), under increasing Cimmeri attacks, submitted as a vassal state. Again the Cimmeri were recoded in 706 BC when they defeated Rusa I’s son and successor, Argishti II. However, the last we hear of the Cimmeri in the 8th century was in 705 BC, when they attempted to subvert the kingdom of Tabal, an important Assyrian vassal in southwestern Anatolia. When a Cimmeri army led by a king named Gurdi1 occupied Tabal, the Assyrian Great King responded. Here the records fall silent, as to the outcome of the battle that ensued, somewhere in the Taurus Mountains, remains in doubt. However, what is clear is that Sharru-kinu II was killed, and the Assyrians were unable to recover his body for burial.

Note: 1 Researchers have recognized the comparison of Gurdi to Gordies, a name or title commonly used for Phrygian kings. However, one can also not escape the similarities to the Old British title Gwrtheyrn (from the root ‘gor,’ over, and ‘teg,’ Lord; meaning Great King).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Nice read cmacq. Mind pointing us plebeii to the sources for further?
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[cmacq]

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Nice read cmacq. Mind pointing us plebeii to the sources for further?
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Sharru-kinu’s intelligence service correspondence from about 716 to 713 BC.

Dellar, K. 1984
Ausgewahlte neuassyrische Briefe betreffend Urartu zur Zeit Sargon II, in Tra lo Zagros e L’Urmia, Ricereche ed archaologiche nell’Azerbaigian iraniano, ed. P. E. Pecorella e M. Salvini. Incunabula Graeca LXXVIII, pp. 97-122.
Lanfranchi, G. B. and Parpola, S. 1990
The Correspondence of Sargon II, Part II: Letters from the Northern and Northeastern Provinces.

Sharru-kinu’s correspondence dealing with the Mushki and Urartu.

Parpola, S. and K. Watanabe 1988
Neo-Assyrian Treaties and Loyalty Oaths.
Waterman, L. 1930
Royal Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire, Part III: Commentary. Ann Arbor Press.

Overviews that include Sharru-kinu’s records dealing with the Cimmeri intrusion and the Assur Letter.

Ivantchik, A.I. 2001
The Current State Of The Cimmerian Question, Summary of the Discussion, in Ancient Civilizations From Scythia to Siberia. An International Journal of Compared Studies in History and Archaeology; Vol. 7, No. 3-4.
Kristensen, A.K.G. 1988
Who Were the Cimmerians, and Where did They Come From? Sargon II, the Cimmerians, and Rusa I. English translation by Jorgen Laessoe. Historisk-filologiske Meddelelser. Copenhagen: Munksgaard.

Discussions of the initial phase of the southern Cimmeri intrusion.

Grayson, A. K. 2002
Assyria: Tiglath-pileser III to Saron II (704-705 B.C.), in The Cambridge Ancient History, edited by John Boederman. Cambridge University Press.
Sauter, Hermann 2000
Studien zum Kimmerierproblem. sind in Buchform erschienen als Band 72 der, Saarbrücker Beiträge zur Altertumskunde.
Sulimirski, T. and T. Taylor 2002
The Scythians, in The Cambridge Ancient History, edited by John Boederman. Cambridge University Press.

The Dur-Sharrukin inscriptions.

Fuchs, A. 1994
Die Inschriften Sargons II. aus Khorsabad, Göttingen.

[cmacq]

Trying for a concise, clear, and cogent presentation

I didn’t realize this, but there is a lot of information on this Cimbric/Cimmeri problem, as it seems to be called. It’s also taking a lot of time to weed through it. I’ve often seen many researchers attempt similar debate tactics. From a given issue they’ll pick a small element of information out of a much greater context, and inflate its significance. Then they propose that this micro-bit is central to understanding the greater issue overall? However, typically the micro-bit is in fact irrelevant within the greater context.

i'm having to go back and edit much

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sharru-kinu’s intelligence service correspondence from about 716 to 713 BC.

Dellar, K. 1984
Ausgewahlte neuassyrische Briefe betreffend Urartu zur Zeit Sargon II, in Tra lo Zagros e L’Urmia, Ricereche ed archaologiche nell’Azerbaigian iraniano, ed. P. E. Pecorella e M. Salvini. Incunabula Graeca LXXVIII, pp. 97-122.
Lanfranchi, G. B. and Parpola, S. 1990
The Correspondence of Sargon II, Part II: Letters from the Northern and Northeastern Provinces.

Sharru-kinu’s correspondence dealing with the Mushki and Urartu.

Parpola, S. and K. Watanabe 1988
Neo-Assyrian Treaties and Loyalty Oaths.
Waterman, L. 1930
Royal Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire, Part III: Commentary. Ann Arbor Press.

Overviews that include Sharru-kinu’s records dealing with the Cimmeri intrusion and the Assur Letter.

Ivantchik, A.I. 2001
The Current State Of The Cimmerian Question, Summary of the Discussion, in Ancient Civilizations From Scythia to Siberia. An International Journal of Compared Studies in History and Archaeology; Vol. 7, No. 3-4.
Kristensen, A.K.G. 1988
Who Were the Cimmerians, and Where did They Come From? Sargon II, the Cimmerians, and Rusa I. English translation by Jorgen Laessoe. Historisk-filologiske Meddelelser. Copenhagen: Munksgaard.

Discussions of the initial phase of the southern Cimmeri intrusion.

Grayson, A. K. 2002
Assyria: Tiglath-pileser III to Saron II (704-705 B.C.), in The Cambridge Ancient History, edited by John Boederman. Cambridge University Press.
Sauter, Hermann 2000
Studien zum Kimmerierproblem. sind in Buchform erschienen als Band 72 der, Saarbrücker Beiträge zur Altertumskunde.
Sulimirski, T. and T. Taylor 2002
The Scythians, in The Cambridge Ancient History, edited by John Boederman. Cambridge University Press.

The Dur-Sharrukin inscriptions.

Fuchs, A. 1994
Die Inschriften Sargons II. aus Khorsabad, Göttingen.

Many thanks. At least some of them would be accessible for me.
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[cmacq]

Apparently, there was a very strong Cimmeri-Thraci connection. I'll post more tonight. But for now I've got to count me some sherds.

[blitzkrieg80]

Herodotus describes the Thracians as the second most populous people behind India, which is no small thing, so I think there could easily be a connection to the mysterious and influencial people (they formed a good deal of Greek culture- Dionysus... besides close ties to the Dacians). The placement of the Thracians in Europe as Indo-Europeans sheds interesting light into their ethnogenisis / migration as well. The amount we do not know about both barbarian peoples, Cimmeri and Thracians makes it almost impossible to prove, but possible Indo-European, and more definite steppe-based ties make it an interesting attempt.

"Crom!"

[cmacq]

Contemporary Records: The Expansion Phase of the Southern Cimmeri Migration

Despite the circumstances of Sharru-kinu II’s death, any negative impacts were relatively short-lived. The period immediately following the demise of Assyria’s Great King, may be considered the second phase in the southern Cimmeri migration. From later Greek sources we find that in the opening years of the 7th century the Cimmeri established an operational base in northwest Anatolia.

While this occurred, Assyria under Sharru-kinu’s son, Śïn-ahhe-eriba (Akkadian meaning, ‘Sin replaced me for my brother;’ aka Sennacherib [ruled from 705 to 681 BC]) remained quiet concerning the Cimmeri. It seems that the Assyrian king was otherwise occupied with an Egyptian backed revolt in Palestine and the resurgence of Chaldean and Elemic attempts to gain control of Babylon. Yet, in 696 BC the Assyrian records observed that Rusa II, king of Urartu and successor of Argishti II, had come to terms and was now allied with the Cimmeri. The record also noted that Urartian troops had followed the Cimmeri as they aggressively renewed their attack on Phrygia and other minor Anatolian kingdoms to the west and southwest.

Further, we hear of the Cimmeri in the reign of Aššur-ahhe-iddina (Akkadian meaning; ‘Ashur has given me a brother,’ aka Esarhaddon [681 BC-669 BC]). In 679 BC a Cimmeri army led by a king called Teushpa took control of the kingdoms of Hilakku/Cilicia and Tabal. Possibly in 678 BC Aššur-ahhe-iddina collected his army, entered Cappadocia, defeated the Cimmeri near Hubushna, and continued on to crush the rebellious Hilakku.

Interestingly, within Aššur-ahhe-iddina’s army was a unit referred to as kisir Gimirai (‘the king’s Cimmeri’). Apparently, by the first quarter of the 7th century some elements within the Cimmeri ethnos had divided between pro- and anti-Assyrian factions. During this period Aššur-ahhe-iddina’s divination questions to Shamash (Sun God) indicate that the Cimmeri were also active in the northern Zagros Mountains. However, it’s unclear if they were allied with the Medes and Mannaeans, or simple acting against Assyrian interests.

Despite several setbacks the Cimmeri appear to have recovered by the middle of the 7th century. During the reign of Aššur-bāni-apli (Akkadian meaning, ‘Assur has made another son;’ aka Ashurbanipal, Assurbanipal, Sardanapal, Sardanapalus, and As(e)nappar or Osnapper [reigned from 669 to 631/627 BC]) an Assyria inscription reported that around 664 BC the Lydian king Gyges received a dream from the god Ashur. The dream told him that if he became a vassal of Aššur-bāni-apli he would conquer all his enemies. This document continued to inform that in the following year he submitted to Assyria and indeed defeated the Cimmeri.

By 657 BC the Cimmeri, led by a king called Lygdames, had completely recovered, to control much of Anatolia and Syria. Finally, in 640 BC the Cimmeri were reported to have captured Sardis, the Lydian capital. The control or occupation of most of Anatolia and Syria appears to represent the zenith of the Cimmeri rise to prominence in the Ancient Near East.

[cmacq]

Contemporary Records: The Expansion Phase of the Southern Cimmeri Migration (continued)

Somehow, researchers investigating the southern Cimmeri migration have largely ignored records that feature changes in the composition of Near Eastern armies. Fortunately, detailed information was kept about the equipment and type of units employed by the Assyrians, as well as their allies, vassals, and enemies. In fact the Assyrians copiously listed feudal obligations concerning military leves, as well as, captured troops and weapons. This information can be found either as inscriptions or correspondence. Yet, the most comprehensive source is Assyrian relief sculpture. Herein, often minute bits of information were recorded about military organization and equipment.

The military reforms of Tukultī-Apil-Ešarra III (Akkadian meaning; I trust Ešarra's heir, aka Tiglath-Pileser III [ruled from 745 to 727 BC]) are generally understood. He abolished local militias and created a somewhat uniform federal army that was supported by mercenary auxiliaries. During this period the Assyrian field armies were composed primarily of heavy spear-infantry, supported by lightly-armed missile troops, and a relatively small corps of both light-skirmish and heavy-assault chariots. Typically, a similar number of cavalry were utilized for reconnaissance, security, and pursuit. Overall, the chariot corps represented the decisive arm of the Assyrian military.

Although more discrete, another military reform was belatedly instituted by Sharru-kinu II, around 709 BC. This largely dealt with the composition of Assyrian field forces. More specifically, the ratio of cavalry to chariots was shifted from 1:1 to 10:1, in favor of the mounted horse. Following this reform Assyrian relief sculpture, from Śïn-ahhe-eriba on, indicate that the cavalry (which was often composed of mercenary auxiliaries) was reorganized as light horse archers and light to medium horse lancers. Clearly, the cavalry had usurped the previous role of the chariot corps, and in effect had rapidly became the dominant arm of Assyrian field armies.

Aššur-bāni-apli as Horse Lancer



Many researchers have simply viewed these changes as evolutionarily inspired within the supposed framework of linear human-progress. Yet, even the most casual observer must note that evolution is largely due to competition. Within this context these adaptation can be seen as measures designed to counter a perceived military threat.

Aššur-bāni-apli as Horse Archer



Again, Assyrian rock-art provides greater clarity. The sculptures from this period record a new form of light defensive armor for mounted troops, a stable saddlecloth; a new harness, bit, and rein system, a new bow type, and at least one new breed of horse. These larger, stronger steppe horses, together with additional equestrian accoutrements and related weapons not only appear to have increased the effectiveness of cavalry in combat, they also provide an important clue as to causality and the nature of the southern Cimmeri migration. Of course, this is an issue that shall be revisited.