Romans In Denmark.

[cmacq]

Contemporary Records: The Final Phase of the Southern Cimmeri Migration

In the final phase of the southern Cimmeri migration their fortunes appear to have ebbed. Possibly in 634 BC Aššur-bāni-apli encountered another Cimmeri army, this time led by a king called Sandakshatru, the son of Lygdamis. Again, the Assyrians defeated the Cimmeri, who were forced to withdraw. Nearing the last quarter of the 7th century ccontemporary records concerning the Cimmeri became increasingly more meager. To a great extent this was due to the inevitable decline of the Neo-Assyrian state under the leadership of a succession of apparently ineffectual rulers.

The records that did survive indicate that Assyria’s vassals and allies had become increasingly more defiant in the final four years of Aššur-bāni-apli's rule. Following his death in 627 BC, Ashur-etil-ilani assumed the Great kingship, and nearly all of Assyria’s vassal states responded in open revolt. Sin-shumu-lishir, the Assyrian governor of Babylon established an independent kingship in 626 BC. However, the following year he was defeated by Nabû-apal-usur (Akkadian, aka Nabopolassar; reigned from 625 to 605 BC), the first king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.

It appears at this juncture the Near Eastern Cimmeri were mentioned by contemporary records for the last time. Possibly in 626 BC the Cimmeri and Medes perceived the weaken condition of Assyria and took the opportunity to attack. The Medes captured and burned both Ashkelon and Nimrud, while Cimmeri raids extended as far south as Egypt. However, late the same year the Cimmeri suffered a comprehensive defeat, at the hands, of an army led by Alyattes II, king of a reconstituted Lydia.

Note: 1 It is difficult to ascertain the root of the Cimmeri king name, Sandakshatru. However, the Assyrian rendering appears to represent an articulation of two elements; Sandak and Shatru. Its possible that the second element, ‘shatru’ was related to the Sanskrit, शत्रुः or shatru, meaning enemy, which is similar to the Gallic, ‘catru,’ a word for battle. However, the origin of the first element 'Sandak' remains problematic.

[cmacq]

Sorry, I'm working on three other projects at the moment and haven't the time to do this thesis justice. I've reviewed a ton of data; some in English, Dutch, and German, both textual and archaeological in nature, on this Cimbric/Cimmeri connection subject. I think my instincts were correct; there is something to the greek claims. It appears to have something to do with the late Bronze Age transition to the early Iron Age in Eastern Europe. I need to write it all out, let it set for awhile, and it will come to me. I promise to provide a presentation on this subject soon.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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[Watchman]

As a random side note, the influence of diverse SE European steppe folk on the Thracians is hardly anything amazing - given that the Thracians occupied pretty much the exact corridor of semi-steppe region leading into the Great Hungarian Plain all westwards-drifting steppe nations from at least the Scythians to the Hungarian-Magyars traversed. Heck, Scythians allied with the Thracians fought the Macedonians under Philip and Alexander often enough...

[cmacq]

I'm not sure but think it might be a little bigger than just the Thracians. It seems the greeks may have mentioned one of the Cimmeri people in Anatolia was Thracian. Greeks say that some of the Thracian people were Cimmeri. And then there are the artifactual distributions in Anatolia and Caucasus, and from eastern Europe as far west as France. The distribution of Thracian artifacts in Denmark. The distribution of Cimbri/Cimmeri tribal names in Anatolia, Caucasus, France, Belgium, Germany, Hungry, Romania, and Denmark. And... much more. I'm not supporting the connection, I'm just saying theres something there.

Sorry I can't deal with this now.

I need help with finding a GIS system?

[Watchman]

Thracians were AFAIK found as far as NW Asia Minor, and the southern branch of the Cimmerians ended up somewhere around the semi-steppe of Anatolia (long a haunt for horse-raising civilisations, and housed at least semi-nomadic Turkic peoples until feirly recently). And it would not have been odd for the western branch of the Cimmerians to have become essentially absorbed into the much more numerous Thracians and early Celts of Central Europe over time - they would have had to largely adopt the latters' lifestyle and ecological methods in any case (south-central Europe not being able to support much of a nomadic population; that's why I keep referring to it as an "ecological trap for migrating nomads" - it *looks* like they could keep on going as before there, but there just isn't enough pasture to go around), and much of the rest of the material culture on the side.

And of course the earlier inhabitants would be only too happy to adopt anything useful the migrating newcomers might bring with them; for example the Thracians seem to have been among the first non-nomadic peoples to adopt the Scythian frame-saddle, and personally I wouldn't be surprised if the four-horned Celtic saddle came from the same root. And the Geto-Dacians of the same region at least apparently happily took to using the Scythian composite bow under their pastoral neighbours' influence.

As for Cimmerian or other east-central European artefacts around the Baltic, meh. The very ancient (in busioness since the Stone Age) Amber Road, the Elektrine Keleuthos of the ancient Greeks, ran through that very region also to the Black Sea. Amber, furs, walrus tusks etc. from the Baltic coasts and Scanidnavia moved south; any kind of high-value item went the other way. Just for a few examples, the museum I work in (Finnish National if you must know) has in its collections severeal late Bronze Age swords of a pattern AFAIK native to the Aegean region; one can only imagine the prices they commanded this far North (Finland AFAIK exported mainly furs and such, mind). From later periods there are among other things sica-type curved swords characteristic of the Thracians and Dacians... and for that matter at least one Roman gold ring, as well as a glass drinking-horn manufactured in Roman Gaul.

[Sakkura]

Walrus tusks? I think walruses live a wee bit too far north for anyone to have been hunting them for tusks back then.

[Watchman]

The last Ice Age was long over way earlier you know... it's not like the far northern shores were exactly uninhabited; and while that would be the Atlantic and arctic coasts rather than the Baltic, stuff gets around. Walrus tusks and whalebone were very much the ivory of the North.

[Sakkura]

The last Ice Age was long over way earlier you know... it's not like the far northern shores were exactly uninhabited; and while that would be the Atlantic and arctic coasts rather than the Baltic, stuff gets around. Walrus tusks and whalebone were very much the ivory of the North.

Hmm, I thought the area around Nordkap (the coast up there would be pretty much the only place to find walrus) was almost uninhabited back then, that the Sami mostly milled around inland with their reindeer herds and all?

[Watchman]

They didn't even get started on reindeer pastoralism before something like 16th-17th century you know... they were hunter-gatherers until then.

Anyway, while the history of those parts isn't exactly my strong suit given the fisheries of the Atlantic and the both valuable and nutritious seals, walruses and whales (well smaller types anyway) to be hunted for fun and profit around those icy shores I'd find it right odd if there wasn't quite the thriving string of little coastal communities up there. I mean, seal-hunting was a growth industry around the Baltic already in the Neolithic period (leading to the extinction of at least once species of seal from the waters, and possibly the introduction of stone-headed maces as the region's first weapon specifically intented for killing other humans) - I sincerely doubt if greedy and enterprising folks weren't in much the same business on the Northern Atlantic by the time we're talking about.

It's not like the North Americans and Inuits had any particular difficulties in the same pursuits across the ocean in similar or harsher circumstances, anyway.

[Sakkura]

Yeah I just thought it would be easier to go hunting for the plentiful seals and whales which live much further south; AFAIK, walruses were/are a lot more numerous around Greenland and Svalbard than near the actual Scandinavian mainland. Although perhaps that's just my misconception since the population and range of the walrus has been reduced by hunting during primarily the 19th century.

On the other issue, I really thought the sami were nomads even back then, but I'm definitely not an expert on that. I guess it's second nature for Scandinavians to have that "Oh, there were people up there before us? Real people? Are you sure?" idea
Kind of like the Scandinavian equivalent of the North Americans vs. native Americans I guess.

[cmacq]

they would have had to largely adopt the latters' lifestyle and ecological methods in any case (south-central Europe not being able to support much of a nomadic population; that's why I keep referring to it as an "ecological trap for migrating nomads" - it *looks* like they could keep on going as before there, but there just isn't enough pasture to go around), and much of the rest of the material culture on the side..

Except for Iron and equestrian stuff, this is the general direction I think the evidence is pointing. It may also have something to do with P-Kelt/pre-slav Balt, or not?


Wow, it hasn't rained here for a long time. It rained this afternoon, then when dark a spectacular lighting storm, and now it's thunder and more rain. Maybe the preyers of Gaw-ga reached us as well?

[cmacq]

ivory of the North.

never seen it like that, but your right. plus amber, and thats why the Greeks knew about places like Denmark and northwest Scotland.

[Sakkura]

Hey, if they bagged some narwhales as well, they could have used the tusk almost as a sarissa
By the time of the vikings, they were sold to stoopid southerners as "unicorn horns"
Queen Elizabeth is even said to have paid 10,000£ for one in the 16th century. Now that was a LOT of money at that time. Even for a wealthy monarch.

[cmacq]

possibly the introduction of stone-headed maces as the region's first weapon specifically intented for killing other humans) - I sincerely doubt if greedy and enterprising folks weren't in much the same business on the Northern Atlantic by the time we're talking about.

you mean....
they were clubbing the baby seals?

[cmacq]

Alright,

Στράβων Γεωγραφία
STRABO's GEOGRAPHY

BOOK 14

[chapter 40]

και το παλαιον δε συνεβὑ τοισ Μαγνὑσιν ηυπο Τρὑρὀν αρδὑν αναιρετηὑναι· Κιμμερικου ετηνουσ· ευτυψηὑσαντασ πολυν ψηρονον· το δ᾿ ηεχὑσ τουσ Επηεσιουσ κατασψηειν τον τοπον,

Rendering

Yet in the old days, the Magnetans were firmly put down by the wave of Treres, a Cimmeri people, who were successful many years, to keep and hold fast the place of the Ephesus people (Milesians?).

So who were these Treres, Thracians?

[Watchman]

Beats me. Wiki (for what it's worth) mentions the early proto-Thracians were apparently conquered by a horse-riding steppe people around the 1500 BC; whether that would have been an offshoot of the same bunch later known as Cimmerians or some other group of equestrian nomads of the Pontic steppe (seeing as how the Cimmerians weren't exactly the first bunch to roam those plains, and presumably in due form displaced the previous owners of the pastures as nomads were wont to) is another issue. That Strabo would term the conquering invaders "Cimmerians" is hardly surprising however; odds are that was the only name he knew for any pre-Scythian nomads of the region.

[cmacq]

I should have said, the STRABO above, was about Cimmeri in Anatolia. Its about the raid and capture of Ephesus. I think elsewhere he says a group within Thrace were Cimmeri, but I have to relocate that.

[cmacq]

Is Αραχεὀ/Ἀράξην the Araxen or Axartes river?

Hdt.1.202.4
το δε ηεν τὀν στοματὀν του Αραχεὀ ρηεει δια κατηαρου εσ τὑν Κασπιὑν τηαλασσαν,

Rendered
However, from it's start to mouth throughout the Araxen (Volga?) flows unsoiled into the Caspian Sea.

This was the river the Scyths crossed to get at the Kimmeri.
wik. said the volga was rha in greek?