Romans In Denmark.

[Power2the1]

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Archaeologists have discovered a Roman cemetery from about 300 A.D. in suburban Copenhagen with about 30 graves, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

"It is something special and rare in Denmark to have so many (ancient Roman) graves in one place," archaeologist Rune Iversen was quoted as saying by the Roskilde Dagblad newspaper.

The graveyard's exact location in Ishoej, southwest of downtown Copenhagen, was being kept secret until the archaeologists from the nearby Kroppedal Museum have completed their work, the newspaper wrote. No one at the museum could be immediately be reached for comment.

Archaeologists found necklaces and other personal belongings, as well as ceramics for containing food.

"It shows that we're dealing with the wealthy segment of that population," Iversen was quoted as saying. The objects were buried with the deceased "to show that one could afford it, show one's social status."

Excavations are due to be completed in early November, according to Roskilde Dagblad.

More info:
http://clioaudio.com/2007/10/10/roma...in-copenhagen/

[Centurion Crastinus]

I had no idea that there were Romans even in Denmark.

[Landwalker]

If you read the whole thing, you realize that there probably weren't; one commentor notes that Scandinavian archaeologists tend to use "Roman" to designate a time period in which their finds fall, not a culture to which they belong. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's unlikely that these were infact Romans as opposed to Roman-era Scandinavians.

Cheers.

[Sakkura]

All they really know is that the place was full of obviously Roman artifacts. Whether that means it was a cemetery for Roman expatriates or for natives who just happened to have loads of Roman stuff is a matter of interpretation...

Here's an article about it in one of the bigger Danish newspapers, unfortunately in Danish:
http://politiken.dk/videnskab/article401616.ece

Apparently there are about 30 graves overall, one of them for a nobleman.
They found a gold ring, some sort of clothes pin of silver (which according to them is otherwise usually only found much further south during that period) and what the article calls a "circus cup" - the first image is of a copy of one - in his grave. They also found 58 glass pieces used for a game like checkers.
The nobleman's body is well preserved, so they hope to find out whether he was of native ethnicity or not - and perhaps find a coin in the mouth for the ferryman.

The 30 other graves are from the generations after the nobleman.

[cmacq]

not really sure the danes were in denmark then either?

[Long lost Caesar]

well most peoples of these days are the descendents of whoever has settled in a country, and with all the of the migration of the steppe and germanic tribes, thats no surprise really. all the same, was scandinavia ever affected by the migrations?

[Thaatu]

This means everything hasn't been wiped out by the rains. I'm still looking for that Phoenician colony on the Finnish isles.

[konny]

I allow to re-quote the first post:

[I]COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Archaeologists have discovered a Roman cemetery from about 300 A.D. in suburban Copenhagen with about 30 graves, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

When we are talking about a "Roman" cemetary of the 4th Century AD we have set straight before what is considered to be Roman in this periode. We have millions "Romans" living north of the Alps that did not even come close to Italy in all their live. We have a full migration going on along all of the Rhine with masses of Germanic crossing the border peacefully and setteling on Roman lands.

On the other side of the border there were large parts of the land living for centuries in very close contact with the superior Roman culture. And there was also always large movements going on within the Germanic population that effected their entire area of living.

And we have, of course, the hughe number of Germanic mercenaries that served for the Romans, and became more or less Romanized.

That means:

- It would be more or less impossible to distinguish a Germanic (for example a warlord or a trader) of the 4th Cent. who has lived all his live in Denmark but collected a lot of Roman stuff for some reason from a Germanic (for example a mercenary or trader) who was born in Cologne or Treverorum and happened to die in Denmark for what reason ever simply by the content of his grave.

- It is absurde to assume that, given the hughe number of Germanics that were living in the Roman Empire, the Romans didn't know a lot of details on Northern Europe. That is just random of the remaints, considering how few writen sources have survived at all.

[cmacq]

It seems more likely romans may be found early on, and very much less likely later in time. It seems rome had a better relationship with the kelto-germans than the nordic-germans. And....as the keltos seem to have lost the struggle for dominance east of the rhine, o'well?

[runes]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

[cmacq]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

ask the black birds?

[runes]

ah yes, the famous bone and iron eating crows of norther italy.

[cmacq]

Ancient Texts can only take you so far

There appears to be somewhat of a problem with the Homeric story about Odysseus' trip to hell’s door as therein the Kimbri/Cimmeri are found in Denmark. However, I’m really not sure exactly where the problem is? Preceding the Scyth invasion, Herodus reported that the Cimmeri (the Novocerkassk archaeological culture) abandoned the Ukraine and migrated west into greater Europe and south into the Near East, where they appeared under the ever watchful eye of the Neo-Assyrians. In the later theater the Cimmeri savaged the Urartian kingdoms of Armenia, destroyed Phrygia, and helped found Lydia while establishing their own base of operations in western Anatolia. Within the Near East the second phase of the Cimmeri invasion, which lasted for decades, consisted of a series of deep, large-scale, and very rapid raids. The Neo-Assyrians indicate that the initial phase of the southern Cimmeri invasion occurred between 720 and 710/709 BC.

Returning to the Homeric story of Odysseus' trip to Denmark, the poem itself was transcribed between 800 and 600 BC. The subject of the poem, Odysseus, is widely believed to have been a Late Bronz Age Myceanean chieftain. Conventional wisdom would place his life sometime in the early twelfth or late thirteenth century BC. Given the dates of Cimmeri migration from the Ukraine, and Odysseus’ life there seems to be a several hundred year discrepancy. So does this mean, more questions?

(1) Was the Odysseus trip to Denmark a fiction?
(2) Was the Cimbri/Cimmeri connection a fiction?
(3) Was the Homeric poem written after the Cimmeri migration and simply applied the name to the Bronze Age people of Denmark?
(4) Were the Cimbri in Denmark during the Late Bronze Age?
(5) Are there any material culture connections between Denmark and the Ukraine in either the late Bronze or Early Iron ages that may suggest a large ethnic migration from the former to the later?

[The Internet]

dumb question (i'm no historian)

where the hell are all the corpses frm 10,000 casualty battles? gone? disappeared beneath developed cities? moved to pyres and burnt after battle? simply degraded?

Depends, they were usually put into mass funeral pyres and burnt to a crisp, for a lot of people back then, it is what their religion called for. As for the armour, well that was taken as part of the spoils of war, if it were an army of Gauls (for example) that had won they'd probably take the best bits for themselves and sell the rest and for the Romans they'd take them for victory parades afterwards (especially if the general was given a triumph). I don't doubt that some of the soldiers also went through the dead to see if anything caught their eye as well, everyone loves a bargin.

[cmacq]

even the late bronze age greeks may have known about and went to denmark?


Ὁμήρου Ὀδύσσεια
Homer's ODYSSEY

BOOK 11

ἡ δ᾽ ἐς πείραθ᾽ ἵκανε βαθυρρόου Ὠκεανοῖο. ἔνθα δὲ Κιμμερίων ἀνδρῶν δῆμός τε πόλις τε, ἠέρι καὶ νεφέλῃ κεκαλυμμένοι· οὐδέ ποτ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἠέλιος φαέθων καταδέρκεται ἀκτίνεσσιν, οὔθ᾽ ὁπότ᾽ ἂν στείχῃσι πρὸς οὐρανὸν ἀστερόεντα, οὔθ᾽ ὅτ᾽ ἂν ἂψ ἐπὶ γαῖαν ἀπ᾽ οὐρανόθεν προτράπηται, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ νὺξ ὀλοὴ τέταται δειλοῖσι βροτοῖσι. νῆα μὲν ἔνθ᾽ ἐλθόντες ἐκέλσαμεν, ἐκ δὲ τὰ μῆλα εἱλόμεθ᾽· αὐτοὶ δ᾽ αὖτε παρὰ ῥόον Ὠκεανοῖο ᾔομεν, ὄφρ᾽ ἐς χῶρον ἀφικόμεθ᾽, ὃν φράσε Κίρκη.

rendering

Each day the sail stretched out to make us race the sea in stride, and out-run the shadow of the sun as we sped across an endless way. In short measure by this means we came to the wave-fill ocean stream and to the Kimmeri kith, kin, and town all wrapped in a mist that never parts to let the sun shine on. This budged not when starry heaven comes around, neither rising from the ground, nor when urged sinks back down. Likewise by design thrust in deathly darkness cower mortal men bound aboard a driven craft, that as goats grasped in hand, yanked aside the ocean’s flow and run aground, ... all as Circe had fore-said.