Results 1 to 30 of 84

Thread: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Thats the thing that annoys me about cav in this mod, they seem to be able to push right through spearmen and units in a phalanx and stand their ground for ages instead of being run through like kebabs.

  2. #2
    Now sporting a classic avatar! Member fallen851's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    799

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    And 1000 lbs of horse and rider moving at 20+ mph is simply going to stop dead when a few men put some flimsy spears in front it? I don't think so.
    "It's true that when it's looked at isolated, Rome II is a good game... but every time I sit down to play it, every battle, through every turn, I see how Rome I was better. Not unanimously, but ultimately." - Dr. Sane

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6eaBtzqqFA#t=1h15m33s

  3. #3
    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Going to the land where men walk without footprints.
    Posts
    948

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Horses stop dead most of the time when they're storming towards a wall-like object. After all the animals don't have any intention of breaking their bones when running into walls. A phalanx or schildtromformation resembles such a wall, so I doubt that many horses actually charged right into such formations.

  4. #4
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    13,469

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Unless specifically trained?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Yeah, I wish the game would make it where the horses just wouldn't charge in on spears from the front - they'd shy and turn or halt just before they hit or veer off. That would be pretty awesome if it would do that, but it'll never happen.

  6. #6
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Fortress
    Posts
    11,852

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    Yeah, I wish the game would make it where the horses just wouldn't charge in on spears from the front - they'd shy and turn or halt just before they hit or veer off. That would be pretty awesome if it would do that, but it'll never happen.
    they may have that in Empire: Total War
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
    Visited:
    A man who casts no shadow has no soul.
    Hvil i fred HoreTore

  7. #7
    fancy assault unit Member blank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros
    Unless specifically trained?
    if you charge at a wall of spear points with your horse then your horse is going to go down awfully fast
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullheadhq View Post
    Now I can even store my dick in EB underwear

  8. #8
    Barely a levy Member overweightninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Plymouth, U.K
    Posts
    459

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros
    Unless specifically trained?
    As blank said even if you could train a horse not to brick it when it saw a wall of spears, it would still just be turning itself into a kebab.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by overweightninja
    As blank said even if you could train a horse not to brick it when it saw a wall of spears, it would still just be turning itself into a kebab.
    hah, you all seem to forget that it would take hell of a lot of power to hold those spears pointed, especially against an armored horse. no one seem to think about broken human arms and twisted shoulders.
    and yes, horse were trained. they were trained to the point when the obstacle would not scare them but irritate and desire to tear it apart.

  10. #10
    Lover of Toight Vahjoinas Member Bootsiuv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,411

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    hah, you all seem to forget that it would take hell of a lot of power to hold those spears pointed, especially against an armored horse. no one seem to think about broken human arms and twisted shoulders.
    and yes, horse were trained. they were trained to the point when the obstacle would not scare them but irritate and desire to tear it apart.
    Exactly....a ton of horse and metal isn't going to just stop because it's dead....the sheer momentum of the dead beasts would probably kill quite a few of the phalanx men in and of itself.
    SSbQ*****************SSbQ******************SSbQ

  11. #11
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The dark side
    Posts
    5,383

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    hah, you all seem to forget that it would take hell of a lot of power to hold those spears pointed, especially against an armored horse. no one seem to think about broken human arms and twisted shoulders.
    and yes, horse were trained. they were trained to the point when the obstacle would not scare them but irritate and desire to tear it apart.
    Indeed! If the horse can't be penetrated by the pike, such as when it's heavily armored, the entire momentum comes against the pike, and is transferred to the holder of it. Basically he may have something like 1 second to halt the fast-moving horse/horse corpse, and to turn a momentum of 900*8 into 0 in that time would require an average force of 7200 Newtons over that entire period, which is the same as the force needed to lift 720 kg. Ideally, at least 3-4 spear/pike points would be needed to share this weight between the pikemen, which is why long pikes would be very much desirable. This can be achieved by:
    - thinning out the enemy formation before it arrives (by uneven ground, caltrops, and missile weapons), so many pikemen can aim at the same horse simultaneously
    - the enemy horse being unarmored, so the horse flesh can be penetrated, which means the entire momentum doesn't have to be stopped in such a short period of time.
    - bracing the pike in the ground
    - positioning your men on ground that is either difficult for the horse to move fast in (forcing the cavalry to charge at a much slower speed, and thus with much less momentum), or preparing the ground to achieve such an effect
    - making sure the horse dies almost at the time of penetration by the pike, so that it falls downwards and ground friction helps slowing down its momentum, before it reaches the first rank of pikemen

    However, I also think mounts of the ancient period weighed a lot less than modern horses. The riders must also have weighed a lot less, as they were often shorter in those days. Maybe 900 kg for a horse with rider is too much? Maybe the horse weighed 600, the rider 70, and the armor 30, which gives around 700 kg. And the speed of the horse may in practise also have been reduced a lot by not only the weight of the armor, but also the way it would hit the horse's legs, or move against its skin with friction, in a painful way. Then the force required may have been as low as 3850 Newtons under ideal circumstances (terrain and such), which would require only two pikemen per horse to halt the charge. This is still enough force to break a pike, and indeed, enough to break or crush human bones. Even in this case, the ideal circumstances for a horse would cause a big, damn mess among a pike formation. So, I'm not sure pikeman formations before the era when pikes were supported in the ground could feel that safe against a cavalry charge - short spear formations should probably bulge to a cavalry charge. So if someone would have succeeded in training the horses enough to charge a pike/spear formation, he would probably have been able to use it to quite devastating effect after all. Remember that a lot of early Medieval armies used mostly spears due to the cost of alternative weaponry, and still, in these battles, it's claimed that the cavalry were crucially superior to much of the opposing infantry. I don't think short spear formations should be considered that safe against cavalry. However, of course, horse formations would take huge casualties when charging such a formation, so it would not be practical to hit it except from a flank or rear, but real life formations would always be able to turn part of the formation backwards, so cavalry would most likely often have to face at least a few spear points turned their way. If such a row of spear points isn't dense enough, a well trained horse and rider can make a quick sideways manouver and move in between them, if the line of charging horses isn't overly dense either. In short, I think cavalry warfare is probably a very complex subject, which explains why a lot of historical charges didn't end up as planned, and others managed to surprisingly break an infantry formation in an army that believed it had taken all the necessary precautions.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 11-03-2007 at 13:17.
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  12. #12

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    I noticed on Midieval II spearmen actually dropped cavalry REALLY fast...

  13. #13
    King of the Golden Hall Member Landwalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

    Quote Originally Posted by tapanojum
    I noticed on Midieval II spearmen actually dropped cavalry REALLY fast...
    Spearmen, or pikemen? It's been a while since I was playing Medieval 2, but I seem to remember heavy cavalry being entirely capable of obliterating a unit of spearmen with a well-formed, straight-on charge. Pikemen, on the other hand, were a different story completely--they were so effective they even skewered your own cavalry.

    Cheers.
    "ALLIANCE, n. In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third."

    "ARMY, n. A class of non-producers who defend the nation by devouring everything likely to tempt an enemy to invade."
    --- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO