Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

[BigTex]

The idea of even a ton of horse moving a phalanx is a bit far fetched. The man on front didnt need to take the full force of the impact from the horse. He was braced and held by 2 men behind him, and those 2 had 2 others holding them. By the end of the phalanx the horses impact has been split and absorbed by dozens of men.

Not to mention a 1,000lb horse, who's then been armored, and has a fully armed and armored rider on top. Is not going to be able to charge at 20mph. 10 mph maybe, but even then it's unlikely to hold that speed for long.

Even with that momentum at 10mphs with a around 1600 lbs of wieght behind it. Your forgetting the basically laws of physics, if you hit that 1 micron thick pointed stick it will not snap immediately. It's going to impale the horse, go many inches deep then snap and remain inside of the horse. If you think that wont stop a horse dead in its tracks your mistaken. Once that first horse is stopped the rest behind it are going to stop, and quickly.

Charging spear points has never been a good idea. Which is why it generally never happened.

As for the OT, it's kind of a cheap way to win. But an exploit, no since it can be broken quickly with high mass troops.

[Pharnakes]

The idea of even a ton of horse moving a phalanx is a bit far fetched. The man on front didnt need to take the full force of the impact from the horse. He was braced and held by 2 men behind him, and those 2 had 2 others holding them. By the end of the phalanx the horses impact has been split and absorbed by dozens of men.

No, we are (I assume) talking Alexandrian phlanx here, which, IIRC was quite a losse formation, manily to give them men sufficent room to weild the sarrisas without stabing the guy behind them in the guts...

Which brings me to another point, I realy would not like to be directly behind someone when cav charges a phalanx, there is no way that the pike is not going to move back at least a bit, and lets face it its is probaly going to shoot backwards, stabing you in the gut if not careful.

[Bootsiuv]

Even with that momentum at 10mphs with a around 1600 lbs of wieght behind it. Your forgetting the basically laws of physics, if you hit that 1 micron thick pointed stick it will not snap immediately. It's going to impale the horse, go many inches deep then snap and remain inside of the horse. If you think that wont stop a horse dead in its tracks your mistaken. Once that first horse is stopped the rest behind it are going to stop, and quickly.

No way....even 2000 lbs going 5 mph will hurt the front line. Using your logic, the front men would be smashed in between the cavalry and his own men, a fate hardly more comforting IMO.

I also fail to understand the logic behind a spear point stopping a horse dead in it's tracks....they're is just too much weight behind it.

This is assuming heavy cavalry of course, which would be the only cavalry equipped enough to even consider a suicidal tactic like that.

As to why commanders didn't do it....do you have any idea how expensive it is to train and maintain a good warhorse? It wasn't worth the loss of valuable cavalry when the same thing could be accomplished with infantry.

Like I said, it was a foolhardy commander who employed such tactics, but that doesn't mean a phalanx would just blow off frontal heavy cavalry charges.

Nothing short of seeing it actually done will convince me otherwise.

[Poulp']

just to react to some replies

I am wrong picturing a 9-12m long pike as not being a straight pole ?
I mean, it's got to be thick enough to resist a trust, but also thin enough to be held in hands, so it's got to bend, at least a little.

[BigTex]

No, we are (I assume) talking Alexandrian phlanx here, which, IIRC was quite a losse formation, manily to give them men sufficent room to weild the sarrisas without stabing the guy behind them in the guts...

Which brings me to another point, I realy would not like to be directly behind someone when cav charges a phalanx, there is no way that the pike is not going to move back at least a bit, and lets face it its is probaly going to shoot backwards, stabing you in the gut if not careful.

If it's a sarissa phalanx, then the first row usually put the but into the ground to brace for a charge. Not to mention the horse is not going to go through the 5+ spear points poking at it.

There's reasons pike formations werent charge by even the heaviest of cavalry in any period from the front. A horse, a man, an anything will not willingly skewer itself on 5 pikes just so the person behind can get through. Keep in mind "push of pike" was called that, not becuase the spear could push. But becuase people would move back to avoid those spears.

I also fail to understand the logic behind a spear point stopping a horse dead in it's tracks....they're is just too much weight behind it.

A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.

No way....even 2000 lbs going 5 mph will hurt the front line. Using your logic, the front men would be smashed in between the cavalry and his own men, a fate hardly more comforting IMO.

The front rank of a phalanx is usually smashed in any charge. It might sound like a horrible way to die, but most confrontations between hoplite armies have men dieing standing up. Good reasons why the veterans were located in the back of the phalanx to push the others forward...

There's even acounts of shieldwall clashes having results like that. In the battle of hastings, Williams the Conquers cavalry charged the shield wall, again and again. Didnt dent it, yes the front rank were smashed, and a lot of mend died. But the cavalry were holy in capable of breaking the braced position until they finally broke rank and counter charged.

[The Internet]

If it's a sarissa phalanx, then the first row usually put the but into the ground to brace for a charge. Not to mention the horse is not going to go through the 5+ spear points poking at it.

There's reasons pike formations werent charge by even the heaviest of cavalry in any period from the front. A horse, a man, an anything will not willingly skewer itself on 5 pikes just so the person behind can get through. Keep in mind "push of pike" was called that, not becuase the spear could push. But becuase people would move back to avoid those spears.



A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.



The front rank of a phalanx is usually smashed in any charge. It might sound like a horrible way to die, but most confrontations between hoplite armies have men dieing standing up. Good reasons why the veterans were located in the back of the phalanx to push the others forward...

There's even acounts of shieldwall clashes having results like that. In the battle of hastings, Williams the Conquers cavalry charged the shield wall, again and again. Didnt dent it, yes the front rank were smashed, and a lot of mend died. But the cavalry were holy in capable of breaking the braced position until they finally broke rank and counter charged.

I like you and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Pharnakes]

What?!

[The Internet]

What?!

Could you expand that question please?

[dominique]

Out of my head, and not an extensive research.

-Gaugamela
-Courtrai
-Bannockburn
-Pharsalus
-Falkirk
They all feature cavalry charge against pikes. And defeats.

Now, some were succesfull:
-Mons-en-Pévèle
-Cassel

But the best:
-Morgarten
-Morat

Feature pike charge AGAINST cavalry. And victories!

[Pharnakes]

I like you and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Could you eplain this please?

[The Internet]

Could you eplain this please?

It's a saying, it means i like his way of thinking. Subscribing to a newsletter means you want to hear more about what you've just heard/seen.


Basically, i agree with him and like his way of thinking.

[runes]

A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.

ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?


the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.


2 horses colliding.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78

horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4

here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho


remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.






the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.

you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.

that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.

and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?

[BigTex]

ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?


the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.


2 horses colliding.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78

horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4

here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho


remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.






the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.

you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.

that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.

and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?

Then there goes the soldier in the front rank. Horrible way to die, crushed between horse and the man behind. But it is a melee and thats what happens. Still doesnt break the phalanx. Also most warhourses were tuaght to stop within one body length. Depending on ground conditions a wounded horse wouldnt hit like a train.

As for your second point. Your onto something there. After the first charge, and repulse. The second and succesive charges become harder and harder. The battle of waterloo is a good example of what happens to cavalry who try to charge and recharge without allowing bodies to be cleared. In a clash against infantry, the bodies would be walked over, and killed with the back spike if still alive. Or just walked over and left to slowly bleed out screaming, and moaning.

Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.

[runes]

i don't think there's any sense in arguing if it did happen, because the information can easily be gathered from existing data.

we're arguing what happens if it does.

especially for TW where the hypothetical is allowed to exist.

some people apparently don't feel that TW properly reflects that actual phsyics present in a head on cav-phalanx charge- which is what this thread is about.

some here say that cavalry is too effective in making head on charges against phalanx.

i don't personally see that in the game (i don't generally use phalanx infantry) so i don't know if the game reflects what we have discussed (i.e. even the heaviest cav being repulsed)

i HAVE noticed that most of my cavalry charges really suck. even charges straight to the rear. good quality cavalry at the back of a line, say skirmishers. sometimes it will break them quickly, but other times, the attack does little damage at all and i have definitely lost a few good generals by charging into skirmishers or other non-cavalry-busting units....

[Bootsiuv]

Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.

A very good point actually, save Kataphraktoi, which weren't exactly prevalent in any great numbers as far as I know.

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

[runes]

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

which is what, i think, we should be discussing, because TW allows us to do this

[gurakshun]

As for the OT, it's kind of a cheap way to win. But an exploit, no since it can be broken quickly with high mass troops.

You sure? In other campaigns I've beat 3/4 full to full stacks of enemies with just 3 phalanx units at the bridge. Maybe a real life Thermopylae? The Persians didnt win until they snuck around the other side anyway, which is the only way I lose too (and sometimes even then no....phalanxing the river crossing can hold them off too sometimes...)

[Bootsiuv]

BTW, I didn't mean to hijack this thread....the conversation just sort of moved in this direction.

Sorry, gurakshun.

[Leão magno]

Never tried this before, I find it dificult to really put CA's Pahalanxes into such formations, especially if it comes necessary to move them in the battle field

[overweightninja]

Wow a lot of replies since I last checked, nice thread....

@ Sarkiss & Bootsiuv, you're right I didn't factor in the force put on the chaps behind the pikes, I'm sure most of them had bloody sore arms after a few hours fighting!

I'm not sure what the actually density of Phalanx units IRL is, but something to remember is that horses are usually quite big, and the pikes tend to be relatively close together, therefore, you need to consider that its not going to be horse vs one pike a lot of the time, with a dense enough formation and the correct angles I imagine a horse would be getting poked at from more than one place. If you know you're physics you'll know that a greater total contact point means the force is distributed over a wider area, hence less pressure on individual pikes and their users.
I have no idea whether or not this would make a significant difference, half a ton or so (sorry I can't do lbs! ) of horse going high speed is still going to be a massive force even if it is divided up amongst a few seperate points, just thought I'd point it out as everyone seems to be looking at the individidual aspects of a pike vs a horse

And to (sorta) get back on topic, no I don't think its an exploit, any commander of the time in the right circumstances, and with the correct knowledge/skill would probably do something simmilar imho (although whether they actually did use "V" formations as opposed to just holding a chokepoint with a wall of spears, I dont know).

Cheers!

[The Internet]

A wall of spears at a choke point means that the flanks aren't exposed and that there is no one weak area but with the V formation the flanks are more exposed and there are weak areas IRL.

[Watchman]

As horse vs heavy inf goes, at around cataphract level at the latest the cavalry could usually be used to simply push into and grind down an infantry formation by the virtue of superior mass and armour; the Byzantine "blunt wedge" tactic was apparently designed specifically for this approach.

'Course, they never had to deal with pikes and AFAIK usually walked or at most trotted into the attack - the point was to roll over the infantry, not shatter them with the shock of the charge.

Even far lighter horse could also be very lethal in a frontal charge against even heavy spearmen if they could gain enough of a psychological superiority that the infantry line dithered and therefore created an opening for the cavalry to plunge into - if horse could break into the ranks of infantry in this fashion they were usually able to push deeper (laying about them with their wepaons of course) with their mates piling into the breach after them, which tended to be a Very Bad Thing for the infantry concerned as AFAIK it usually led to psychological collapse right fast.

Pikemen, however, were frontally AFAIK pretty much a no-go for anything short of plate-clad Late Medieval gendarmes, where both he man and the horse were all but invulnerably armoured in solid steel. I understand French gendarmes were in fact able to penetrate and downright ride through Swiss pike squares in some battles - it just didn't have much effect, as the infantry didn't lose heart and simply closed the ranks over the casualties.

Anything else just doesn't have the survivability to hit the wall of braced pikes and get through alive. The "international standard" for pike set to receive horse in the "pike and shot" period at least was the front ranks crouching, with pike-butts firmly planted in the ground and one foot on top of it for good measure, and the pike-tipe at the level of the horses' chest. The successive ranks held theirs level at different heights, IIRC mainly shoulder- and waist-height. Unless distrupted by missile fire or failure of morale, this "hedge" of pikes was practically inviolable to any cavalry short of the very heaviest plate-clad type.

As working simple solutions tend to be ones pretty much everyone who uses the same techniques and tools develops through empirical experience and basic hit-and-miss experimentation, I would be very surprised if the same basic "pike-hedge" system for seeing off cavalry did not develop among Hellenistic pikemen quite early on - and period cataphracts and their horses frankly didn't have enough armour to survive a head-on clash with set pikes, that much I'm certain of. Scale and lamellar, good armour as they generally are otherwise, just don't cut it for that purpose.

[runes]

nice reply man.

so then for anyone who has done any testing (i'm playing rome right now nad don't use a ton of cav)

how does cavalry fare against non phalanx/heavy spear units in a frontal charge?

is it fair to say they SHOULD be able to penetrate fairly deeply into a line of een well trained swordsmen?

[gurakshun]

And to (sorta) get back on topic, no I don't think its an exploit, any commander of the time in the right circumstances, and with the correct knowledge/skill would probably do something simmilar imho (although whether they actually did use "V" formations as opposed to just holding a chokepoint with a wall of spears, I dont know).

Cheers!

So far playing as Pontos all I've had to do to defend my eastern territories (which are only accessible by sea or by a bridge, as there is a river forming a natural barrier). So thats 2 bridges total for 2 settlements that form my border with AS/Ptol - the only way to get to my empire from the east. So far, using the v-formation, the only units i need to defend those 2 bridges are 3 phalanxe units - 2 to make the v, 1 as a reserve (because the phalanxes get buggy in extended fighting). Thats 6 phalanx units total that have massacred thousands and thousands of hapless AS soldiers and killed many tens of stupid AS family members who have foolishly tried to cross the bridge. it has failed only once and thankfully my army was nearby to kick the AS out yet again.

But thats all thats required. just 3 phalanxes that get "heroic victories" nonstop killing over 1000+ enemies AND a usual family member or 2 or even 3 and losing roughly 30 (thats par for course, depends on how many bodyguard/cataphract cavs and archer/slinger units there are). And thats the lowest rung of phalanx too, the pantadapoi phalangitai.

[Olaf The Great]

Yeah V for Gate defence, and Square for Field engagements.

Both "kinda" exploits, but when facing an enemy with missiles of ANY sort, you'll be killed.


BTW, in the case of non phalanx spears, what are the horses afraid of?

Or is just the ease of someone PUSHING you off the horse that causes the "bonus" in that case?


EDIT: Did Greeks or other tight pike formations ever actually "use" the V shape?
Like when defending gates or chokepoints?

Considering that the pikes would be overlapping, its basically a wall.

[Watchman]

BTW, in the case of non phalanx spears, what are the horses afraid of?

Or is just the ease of someone PUSHING you off the horse that causes the "bonus" in that case?

AFAIK horses regard about anything that appears as a solid, unmoving obstacle as something to avoid; being animals evolved to survive danger by running away from it, they're understandably wary about footing and colliding with things.

That aside, long pointy things are generally useful against cavalry simply because they largely negate the height advantage the horsemen have, and potentially allow you to kill the mount before you're even within the striking range of the rider. It of course doesn't particularly hurt that spears also take rather little "elbow room" to employ, allowing the spearmen to form into quite dense blocks horses try to avoid and will have a very hard time breaking in the off chance they can be goaded into even trying. And then there's the possibility of "bracing" the spear on the ground (as explained earlier in the context of pikes - the basic idea works with any decently long spear) to receive a charging horse, in essence turning the same principles of momentum that make lances so effective right against the cavalry.

...and Square for Field engagements.

...which would actually be perfectly legit realistically and historically. The classic "hollow square" formation to avoid cavalry flanking was well known already in Classical Greek times, and phalangites were no worse at employing it when necessary.

[NeoSpartan]

...which would actually be perfectly legit realistically and historically. The classic "hollow square" formation to avoid cavalry flanking was well known already in Classical Greek times, and phalangites were no worse at employing it when necessary.

and it the times of the Napoleonic wars too