Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

[gurakshun]

As for the OT, it's kind of a cheap way to win. But an exploit, no since it can be broken quickly with high mass troops.

You sure? In other campaigns I've beat 3/4 full to full stacks of enemies with just 3 phalanx units at the bridge. Maybe a real life Thermopylae? The Persians didnt win until they snuck around the other side anyway, which is the only way I lose too (and sometimes even then no....phalanxing the river crossing can hold them off too sometimes...)

[Bootsiuv]

BTW, I didn't mean to hijack this thread....the conversation just sort of moved in this direction.

Sorry, gurakshun.

[Leão magno]

Never tried this before, I find it dificult to really put CA's Pahalanxes into such formations, especially if it comes necessary to move them in the battle field

[overweightninja]

Wow a lot of replies since I last checked, nice thread....

@ Sarkiss & Bootsiuv, you're right I didn't factor in the force put on the chaps behind the pikes, I'm sure most of them had bloody sore arms after a few hours fighting!

I'm not sure what the actually density of Phalanx units IRL is, but something to remember is that horses are usually quite big, and the pikes tend to be relatively close together, therefore, you need to consider that its not going to be horse vs one pike a lot of the time, with a dense enough formation and the correct angles I imagine a horse would be getting poked at from more than one place. If you know you're physics you'll know that a greater total contact point means the force is distributed over a wider area, hence less pressure on individual pikes and their users.
I have no idea whether or not this would make a significant difference, half a ton or so (sorry I can't do lbs! ) of horse going high speed is still going to be a massive force even if it is divided up amongst a few seperate points, just thought I'd point it out as everyone seems to be looking at the individidual aspects of a pike vs a horse

And to (sorta) get back on topic, no I don't think its an exploit, any commander of the time in the right circumstances, and with the correct knowledge/skill would probably do something simmilar imho (although whether they actually did use "V" formations as opposed to just holding a chokepoint with a wall of spears, I dont know).

Cheers!

[The Internet]

A wall of spears at a choke point means that the flanks aren't exposed and that there is no one weak area but with the V formation the flanks are more exposed and there are weak areas IRL.

[Watchman]

As horse vs heavy inf goes, at around cataphract level at the latest the cavalry could usually be used to simply push into and grind down an infantry formation by the virtue of superior mass and armour; the Byzantine "blunt wedge" tactic was apparently designed specifically for this approach.

'Course, they never had to deal with pikes and AFAIK usually walked or at most trotted into the attack - the point was to roll over the infantry, not shatter them with the shock of the charge.

Even far lighter horse could also be very lethal in a frontal charge against even heavy spearmen if they could gain enough of a psychological superiority that the infantry line dithered and therefore created an opening for the cavalry to plunge into - if horse could break into the ranks of infantry in this fashion they were usually able to push deeper (laying about them with their wepaons of course) with their mates piling into the breach after them, which tended to be a Very Bad Thing for the infantry concerned as AFAIK it usually led to psychological collapse right fast.

Pikemen, however, were frontally AFAIK pretty much a no-go for anything short of plate-clad Late Medieval gendarmes, where both he man and the horse were all but invulnerably armoured in solid steel. I understand French gendarmes were in fact able to penetrate and downright ride through Swiss pike squares in some battles - it just didn't have much effect, as the infantry didn't lose heart and simply closed the ranks over the casualties.

Anything else just doesn't have the survivability to hit the wall of braced pikes and get through alive. The "international standard" for pike set to receive horse in the "pike and shot" period at least was the front ranks crouching, with pike-butts firmly planted in the ground and one foot on top of it for good measure, and the pike-tipe at the level of the horses' chest. The successive ranks held theirs level at different heights, IIRC mainly shoulder- and waist-height. Unless distrupted by missile fire or failure of morale, this "hedge" of pikes was practically inviolable to any cavalry short of the very heaviest plate-clad type.

As working simple solutions tend to be ones pretty much everyone who uses the same techniques and tools develops through empirical experience and basic hit-and-miss experimentation, I would be very surprised if the same basic "pike-hedge" system for seeing off cavalry did not develop among Hellenistic pikemen quite early on - and period cataphracts and their horses frankly didn't have enough armour to survive a head-on clash with set pikes, that much I'm certain of. Scale and lamellar, good armour as they generally are otherwise, just don't cut it for that purpose.

[runes]

nice reply man.

so then for anyone who has done any testing (i'm playing rome right now nad don't use a ton of cav)

how does cavalry fare against non phalanx/heavy spear units in a frontal charge?

is it fair to say they SHOULD be able to penetrate fairly deeply into a line of een well trained swordsmen?

[Watchman]

By my somewhat limited experience on the topic they do. Then again, the heavy types tend to push lighter spearmen around a lot too. Anyway, as non-spear infantry lacks the anti-cavalry bonus from the "light_spear" attribute and its limited "charge reflection" effect they by rights should have a comparatively harder time taking a cavalry charge. 'Course many "sword" infantry are pretty tough customers, and often enough have nasty AP weapons to boot, so what happens after the charge really depends more on the specific units involved.

[gurakshun]

And to (sorta) get back on topic, no I don't think its an exploit, any commander of the time in the right circumstances, and with the correct knowledge/skill would probably do something simmilar imho (although whether they actually did use "V" formations as opposed to just holding a chokepoint with a wall of spears, I dont know).

Cheers!

So far playing as Pontos all I've had to do to defend my eastern territories (which are only accessible by sea or by a bridge, as there is a river forming a natural barrier). So thats 2 bridges total for 2 settlements that form my border with AS/Ptol - the only way to get to my empire from the east. So far, using the v-formation, the only units i need to defend those 2 bridges are 3 phalanxe units - 2 to make the v, 1 as a reserve (because the phalanxes get buggy in extended fighting). Thats 6 phalanx units total that have massacred thousands and thousands of hapless AS soldiers and killed many tens of stupid AS family members who have foolishly tried to cross the bridge. it has failed only once and thankfully my army was nearby to kick the AS out yet again.

But thats all thats required. just 3 phalanxes that get "heroic victories" nonstop killing over 1000+ enemies AND a usual family member or 2 or even 3 and losing roughly 30 (thats par for course, depends on how many bodyguard/cataphract cavs and archer/slinger units there are). And thats the lowest rung of phalanx too, the pantadapoi phalangitai.

[Olaf The Great]

Yeah V for Gate defence, and Square for Field engagements.

Both "kinda" exploits, but when facing an enemy with missiles of ANY sort, you'll be killed.


BTW, in the case of non phalanx spears, what are the horses afraid of?

Or is just the ease of someone PUSHING you off the horse that causes the "bonus" in that case?


EDIT: Did Greeks or other tight pike formations ever actually "use" the V shape?
Like when defending gates or chokepoints?

Considering that the pikes would be overlapping, its basically a wall.

[Watchman]

BTW, in the case of non phalanx spears, what are the horses afraid of?

Or is just the ease of someone PUSHING you off the horse that causes the "bonus" in that case?

AFAIK horses regard about anything that appears as a solid, unmoving obstacle as something to avoid; being animals evolved to survive danger by running away from it, they're understandably wary about footing and colliding with things.

That aside, long pointy things are generally useful against cavalry simply because they largely negate the height advantage the horsemen have, and potentially allow you to kill the mount before you're even within the striking range of the rider. It of course doesn't particularly hurt that spears also take rather little "elbow room" to employ, allowing the spearmen to form into quite dense blocks horses try to avoid and will have a very hard time breaking in the off chance they can be goaded into even trying. And then there's the possibility of "bracing" the spear on the ground (as explained earlier in the context of pikes - the basic idea works with any decently long spear) to receive a charging horse, in essence turning the same principles of momentum that make lances so effective right against the cavalry.

...and Square for Field engagements.

...which would actually be perfectly legit realistically and historically. The classic "hollow square" formation to avoid cavalry flanking was well known already in Classical Greek times, and phalangites were no worse at employing it when necessary.

[NeoSpartan]

...which would actually be perfectly legit realistically and historically. The classic "hollow square" formation to avoid cavalry flanking was well known already in Classical Greek times, and phalangites were no worse at employing it when necessary.

and it the times of the Napoleonic wars too