Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

[BigTex]

No, we are (I assume) talking Alexandrian phlanx here, which, IIRC was quite a losse formation, manily to give them men sufficent room to weild the sarrisas without stabing the guy behind them in the guts...

Which brings me to another point, I realy would not like to be directly behind someone when cav charges a phalanx, there is no way that the pike is not going to move back at least a bit, and lets face it its is probaly going to shoot backwards, stabing you in the gut if not careful.

If it's a sarissa phalanx, then the first row usually put the but into the ground to brace for a charge. Not to mention the horse is not going to go through the 5+ spear points poking at it.

There's reasons pike formations werent charge by even the heaviest of cavalry in any period from the front. A horse, a man, an anything will not willingly skewer itself on 5 pikes just so the person behind can get through. Keep in mind "push of pike" was called that, not becuase the spear could push. But becuase people would move back to avoid those spears.

I also fail to understand the logic behind a spear point stopping a horse dead in it's tracks....they're is just too much weight behind it.

A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.

No way....even 2000 lbs going 5 mph will hurt the front line. Using your logic, the front men would be smashed in between the cavalry and his own men, a fate hardly more comforting IMO.

The front rank of a phalanx is usually smashed in any charge. It might sound like a horrible way to die, but most confrontations between hoplite armies have men dieing standing up. Good reasons why the veterans were located in the back of the phalanx to push the others forward...

There's even acounts of shieldwall clashes having results like that. In the battle of hastings, Williams the Conquers cavalry charged the shield wall, again and again. Didnt dent it, yes the front rank were smashed, and a lot of mend died. But the cavalry were holy in capable of breaking the braced position until they finally broke rank and counter charged.

[The Internet]

If it's a sarissa phalanx, then the first row usually put the but into the ground to brace for a charge. Not to mention the horse is not going to go through the 5+ spear points poking at it.

There's reasons pike formations werent charge by even the heaviest of cavalry in any period from the front. A horse, a man, an anything will not willingly skewer itself on 5 pikes just so the person behind can get through. Keep in mind "push of pike" was called that, not becuase the spear could push. But becuase people would move back to avoid those spears.



A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.



The front rank of a phalanx is usually smashed in any charge. It might sound like a horrible way to die, but most confrontations between hoplite armies have men dieing standing up. Good reasons why the veterans were located in the back of the phalanx to push the others forward...

There's even acounts of shieldwall clashes having results like that. In the battle of hastings, Williams the Conquers cavalry charged the shield wall, again and again. Didnt dent it, yes the front rank were smashed, and a lot of mend died. But the cavalry were holy in capable of breaking the braced position until they finally broke rank and counter charged.

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[Pharnakes]

What?!

[The Internet]

What?!

Could you expand that question please?

[dominique]

Out of my head, and not an extensive research.

-Gaugamela
-Courtrai
-Bannockburn
-Pharsalus
-Falkirk
They all feature cavalry charge against pikes. And defeats.

Now, some were succesfull:
-Mons-en-Pévèle
-Cassel

But the best:
-Morgarten
-Morat

Feature pike charge AGAINST cavalry. And victories!

[The Internet]

Out of my head, and not an extensive research.

-Gaugamela
-Courtrai
-Bannockburn
-Pharsalus
-Falkirk
They all feature cavalry charge against pikes. And defeats.

Now, some were succesfull:
-Mons-en-Pévèle
-Cassel

But the best:
-Morgarten
-Morat

Feature pike charge AGAINST cavalry. And victories!

Indeed, but there are a couple of battles off hand i wouldn't include in those lists and also probably not the medieval ones because not only are they out of our time period but also a lot more heavily armed than those you'd find in EB.


Your point is still valid though and i enjoyed reading up on some of the battles i was not familiar or well versed in.

ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?


the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.


2 horses colliding.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78

horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4

here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho


remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.






the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.

you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.

that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.

and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?

There is no doubt that it won't make a mess but it is highly doubtful that the horses would do it in the first place and that they would be going full gallop into the pikes too. The role of cavalry is to attack/harrass the flanks and doesn't do when they stop to slug it out, as shown at Pharsalus, although my example is admittedly, slightly extreme. There are many accounts of battles becomign tougher as the phalanx had to move over the bodies of dead/dying enemies and even their own men and behind the phalanx there generally was other units (skirmishers who have retired or any reserve forces kept back) who would be more than happy to keep their rear secure by killing any survivors.

[Pharnakes]

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Could you eplain this please?

[The Internet]

Could you eplain this please?

It's a saying, it means i like his way of thinking. Subscribing to a newsletter means you want to hear more about what you've just heard/seen.


Basically, i agree with him and like his way of thinking.

[runes]

A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.

ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?


the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.


2 horses colliding.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78

horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4

here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho


remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.






the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.

you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.

that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.

and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?

[BigTex]

ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?


the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.


2 horses colliding.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78

horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4

here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho


remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.






the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.

you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.

that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.

and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?

Then there goes the soldier in the front rank. Horrible way to die, crushed between horse and the man behind. But it is a melee and thats what happens. Still doesnt break the phalanx. Also most warhourses were tuaght to stop within one body length. Depending on ground conditions a wounded horse wouldnt hit like a train.

As for your second point. Your onto something there. After the first charge, and repulse. The second and succesive charges become harder and harder. The battle of waterloo is a good example of what happens to cavalry who try to charge and recharge without allowing bodies to be cleared. In a clash against infantry, the bodies would be walked over, and killed with the back spike if still alive. Or just walked over and left to slowly bleed out screaming, and moaning.

Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.

[runes]

i don't think there's any sense in arguing if it did happen, because the information can easily be gathered from existing data.

we're arguing what happens if it does.

especially for TW where the hypothetical is allowed to exist.

some people apparently don't feel that TW properly reflects that actual phsyics present in a head on cav-phalanx charge- which is what this thread is about.

some here say that cavalry is too effective in making head on charges against phalanx.

i don't personally see that in the game (i don't generally use phalanx infantry) so i don't know if the game reflects what we have discussed (i.e. even the heaviest cav being repulsed)

i HAVE noticed that most of my cavalry charges really suck. even charges straight to the rear. good quality cavalry at the back of a line, say skirmishers. sometimes it will break them quickly, but other times, the attack does little damage at all and i have definitely lost a few good generals by charging into skirmishers or other non-cavalry-busting units....

[Bootsiuv]

Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.

A very good point actually, save Kataphraktoi, which weren't exactly prevalent in any great numbers as far as I know.

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

[runes]

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

which is what, i think, we should be discussing, because TW allows us to do this

[The Internet]

I personally feel a frontal cavalry charge on any prepared heavy infatry would be suicidal, hence the reason it was never the "proper" or "normal" (read: sane) thing to do, especially in the Eb time frame.


As for the game, my point was that cavarly seem to be able to go toe to toe with the infantry units for a lot longer (and with a lot more success) than they should do. Not to compare mods here but as an example, in RTR if you just charged your guys in and left them there any longer than 10 seconds, they'd be butchered and that goes for kataphracts too, the heaviest of the heavy. In my opinion the case should always be that the cavalry is only useful when it remains mobile, if it stops to do battle with the infantry it is going to be quickly cut down because they'll be swamped and cut down. There are several times in EB's time frame hat i can remember off the top of my head where infantry have gotten the best of cavalry because they have been caught standing idle, swamped after their charge or lost because their mobility has been lost and even more occassions where a skirmish has been lost because the men they were attacking had formed up and were able to repel their charges.


IMO cavalry should only be used as a supporting role and in the case of the hammer and anvil only used to finish off wavering troops from the rear/flanks. They should never be able to push through a prepared formation of infantry.


Time for bed now i think.

[runes]

As for the game, my point was that cavarly seem to be able to go toe to toe with the infantry units for a lot longer (and with a lot more success) than they should do. Not to compare mods here but as an example, in RTR if you just charged your guys in and left them there any longer than 10 seconds, they'd be butchered and that goes for kataphracts too, the heaviest of the heavy. In my opinion the case should always be that the cavalry is only useful when it remains mobile, if it stops to do battle with the infantry it is going to be quickly cut down because they'll be swamped and cut down. There are several times in EB's time frame hat i can remember off the top of my head where infantry have gotten the best of cavalry because they have been caught standing idle, swamped after their charge or lost because their mobility has been lost and even more occassions where a skirmish has been lost because the men they were attacking had formed up and were able to repel their charges.

So, this is what seems to be the "best" group consensus.

1) Cavalry needs to be extremely vulnerable once engaged.
2) Cavalry needs to have little, if any penetration versus phalanx/heavy spear on frontal assaults

^ these all seem to add up to nerfing cavalry

so, remembering where/how cavalry was good/effective, we must also maintain that

3) cavalry needs to keep (or improve? i've never done much testing) their charge bonus (i find the hit to morale quite noticeable and can rout even before engaging, unlike in vanilla)

however, here's the part i am still a bit unsure about:

if a charge to the front is innefective (momentum distributed along front line with many dense points, supported by back rows (question, does unit mass increase/decreas with depth?)

then should it be considerably more effective when charging infantry at the back? i would assume so. the units at the back would (likely i assume) turn around to face the charge- this would detract from unit cohesion/density (is this modeled?)

i don't care if you're the finest pike in all the land, if you get hit from behind with cavalry (without turning and mounting a proper defensive front) you are going to get obliterated...




next:


cavalry vs front assaults of less than elite spear/non spear units.

again, since i haven't done much testing, i don't know that status of this in game.

let's return to the frontal assault:

cavalry make a charge head on towards some (basic or conscript) spearmen, or regular line infantry (swordsmen)

how does the charge fare?