Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

[Bootsiuv]

Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.

A very good point actually, save Kataphraktoi, which weren't exactly prevalent in any great numbers as far as I know.

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

[runes]

I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.

which is what, i think, we should be discussing, because TW allows us to do this

[The Internet]

I personally feel a frontal cavalry charge on any prepared heavy infatry would be suicidal, hence the reason it was never the "proper" or "normal" (read: sane) thing to do, especially in the Eb time frame.


As for the game, my point was that cavarly seem to be able to go toe to toe with the infantry units for a lot longer (and with a lot more success) than they should do. Not to compare mods here but as an example, in RTR if you just charged your guys in and left them there any longer than 10 seconds, they'd be butchered and that goes for kataphracts too, the heaviest of the heavy. In my opinion the case should always be that the cavalry is only useful when it remains mobile, if it stops to do battle with the infantry it is going to be quickly cut down because they'll be swamped and cut down. There are several times in EB's time frame hat i can remember off the top of my head where infantry have gotten the best of cavalry because they have been caught standing idle, swamped after their charge or lost because their mobility has been lost and even more occassions where a skirmish has been lost because the men they were attacking had formed up and were able to repel their charges.


IMO cavalry should only be used as a supporting role and in the case of the hammer and anvil only used to finish off wavering troops from the rear/flanks. They should never be able to push through a prepared formation of infantry.


Time for bed now i think.

[runes]

As for the game, my point was that cavarly seem to be able to go toe to toe with the infantry units for a lot longer (and with a lot more success) than they should do. Not to compare mods here but as an example, in RTR if you just charged your guys in and left them there any longer than 10 seconds, they'd be butchered and that goes for kataphracts too, the heaviest of the heavy. In my opinion the case should always be that the cavalry is only useful when it remains mobile, if it stops to do battle with the infantry it is going to be quickly cut down because they'll be swamped and cut down. There are several times in EB's time frame hat i can remember off the top of my head where infantry have gotten the best of cavalry because they have been caught standing idle, swamped after their charge or lost because their mobility has been lost and even more occassions where a skirmish has been lost because the men they were attacking had formed up and were able to repel their charges.

So, this is what seems to be the "best" group consensus.

1) Cavalry needs to be extremely vulnerable once engaged.
2) Cavalry needs to have little, if any penetration versus phalanx/heavy spear on frontal assaults

^ these all seem to add up to nerfing cavalry

so, remembering where/how cavalry was good/effective, we must also maintain that

3) cavalry needs to keep (or improve? i've never done much testing) their charge bonus (i find the hit to morale quite noticeable and can rout even before engaging, unlike in vanilla)

however, here's the part i am still a bit unsure about:

if a charge to the front is innefective (momentum distributed along front line with many dense points, supported by back rows (question, does unit mass increase/decreas with depth?)

then should it be considerably more effective when charging infantry at the back? i would assume so. the units at the back would (likely i assume) turn around to face the charge- this would detract from unit cohesion/density (is this modeled?)

i don't care if you're the finest pike in all the land, if you get hit from behind with cavalry (without turning and mounting a proper defensive front) you are going to get obliterated...




next:


cavalry vs front assaults of less than elite spear/non spear units.

again, since i haven't done much testing, i don't know that status of this in game.

let's return to the frontal assault:

cavalry make a charge head on towards some (basic or conscript) spearmen, or regular line infantry (swordsmen)

how does the charge fare?