Ionian Greeks

[antisocialmunky]

Who exactly were the Ionian Greeks represented by the KH's Athenian and Rhodians ties to that area? Don't they have a few hundred years of history?

[Vorian]

The Ionian cities had been under foreign rule, with some breaks since before the persian wars. At our time period they probably belonged to the successor states and are not mentioned as influential powers.

[Malik of Sindh]

No,at this period they belonged to the Attalid kingdom of Pergamon,which was a very important country.They defeated Seleucid Empire a few times,and crushed galatians.I believe the ruler was an Ionian,but im not sure.They were deleted of the map by Rome,peacefully,since last attalid king did not have a heira nd Pergamon and Rome were allies vs the seleucids.

Adveristing:Kingdom of Pergamon is going to be included in Asia ton barbaron.

[Sakkura]

No,at this period they belonged to the Attalid kingdom of Pergamon,which was a very important country.They defeated Seleucid Empire a few times,and crushed galatians.I believe the ruler was an Ionian,but im not sure.

Adveristing:Kingdom of Pergamon is going to be included in Asia ton barbaron.

The rulers of the Attalid dynasty were descended from Attalus, a Macedonian. The kingdom was the remainder of the larger diadochoi kingdom of Thrace which fell apart.

[antisocialmunky]

No,at this period they belonged to the Attalid kingdom of Pergamon,which was a very important country.They defeated Seleucid Empire a few times,and crushed galatians.I believe the ruler was an Ionian,but im not sure.They were deleted of the map by Rome,peacefully,since last attalid king did not have a heira nd Pergamon and Rome were allies vs the seleucids.

Adveristing:Kingdom of Pergamon is going to be included in Asia ton barbaron.

Ohhh, yeah him. I remember that but I don't know too much about Pergamun. It would be cool to have some scripting of them like the Boii since that would definitely be an interesting expansion buffer between the western and eastern Greeks.

@ Sakkura - Are you talking about the Kingdom of Lysimachus right? I forget, did he get defeated by the Syrian Successors or did most of his lands just get absorbed by them?

[Tellos Athenaios]

EDIT: Mixed things up!

[antisocialmunky]

'_' Must have been one of those rare times they worked together.

[Sakkura]

Ohhh, yeah him. I remember that but I don't know too much about Pergamun. It would be cool to have some scripting of them like the Boii since that would definitely be an interesting expansion buffer between the western and eastern Greeks.

@ Sakkura - Are you talking about the Kingdom of Lysimachus right? I forget, did he get defeated by the Syrian Successors or did most of his lands just get absorbed by them?

Yep, Lysimachus. He was among the victors at the Battle of Ipsos, which gave him a bigger chunk of northern and western Asia Minor. But later, he lost the Battle of Corupedium (against the Seleucids), along with his life. Then his kingdom fell apart.

[Folgore]

Yep, Lysimachus. He was among the victors at the Battle of Ipsos, which gave him a bigger chunk of northern and western Asia Minor. But later, he lost the Battle of Corupedium (against the Seleucids), along with his life. Then his kingdom fell apart.

Supposedly* he was killed by Seleucos Nikator himself in hand to hand combat at Corupedium. Can you imagine? Two kings, aged 79 and 77, in full armour, fighting to the death?

(* Yeah, I read it on wikipedia, sue me. Does anyone know about this encounter from a reliable source?)

[russia almighty]

That would be badass . Bad ass were the hypasists too . Old bastards in there 70's winning battles that were supposedly suicidal .

[Watchman]

I would imagine they'd "passed the torch" for younger fellows by that point though. It's just not terribly sensible to have an entire unit, and a heavily armed one at that, made up of people flat out far past their "expiration date" when it comes to physique. One would think such venerable vets were retired to instructor and management positions, and/or tended to themselves have grown weary of war.

The bit about the old kings going at it mano y mano may be true though; I recall seeing the incident mentioned somewhere (which could cite decent sources too), but can't for the life of me recall where at the moment. Guess the old fogeys were spry for their age, or just too stubborn and spiteful - or maybe it would just Not Do for a Hellenistic monarch to shirk from battle whatever his age. On a similar vein you had some pretty ancient (and in at least one case blind) Medieval lords going at it in the front ranks; may have been some sort of macho "better die with yer boots on" thing really...

[overweightninja]

The bit about the old kings going at it mano y mano may be true though; I recall seeing the incident mentioned somewhere (which could cite decent sources too), but can't for the life of me recall where at the moment. Guess the old fogeys were spry for their age, or just too stubborn and spiteful - or maybe it would just Not Do for a Hellenistic monarch to shirk from battle whatever his age. On a similar vein you had some pretty ancient (and in at least one case blind) Medieval lords going at it in the front ranks; may have been some sort of macho "better die with yer boots on" thing really...

I have a great image in my head right now of two fully decked out ancient kings, slowly swiping at each other mumbling stuff like "I'll get you damn wippersnapper!" etc...

[Maeran]

Personally, I doubt it happened. Too Homeric for me to believe.

Mind you. I remember my Grandfather playing bowls when he was about that age. And he was really competitive. So it isn't beyond plausibility, just very unlikely to have come to that. Not when there's all these young people around these days. Far too many of 'em I say. What'd do them good is a bit o' military service like we had.

[AntiochusIII]

No,at this period they belonged to the Attalid kingdom of Pergamon,which was a very important country.

Depends really. There were a lot of Ionian Greek cities and they weren't exactly a uniform whole.

The Seleucids certainly held some at many points, so did the Ptolemies with their early overseas empire. I believe Philip V of the Antigonids even campaigned in that region once, with mixed success.

But of course, with the Attalids being the "local" major power, it's not surprising if they'd control most of them at one point, too, especially after the Ptolemaic decline, Seleucid withdrawal from Asia Minor, and the defeat of Macedon by the Romans.

These cities were relatively rich, as the land was rich and well-populated, but they were never powers of their own.

I also believe quite a few of them belonged to the Aitolian league at one point as well, right?

Hellenistic Asia Minor had a very messy political history -- and vague; I don't think there's too many written sources dealing directly with the history of those cities after all.

As for the Attalids being a "remnant" of the Lysimachid Empire. That's certainly one way to view it, but I don't really think it's that relevant.

Pergamum was a really interesting state. I hold a grudge against them because they're a bunch of wimpy Roman lovers and unruly traitors against the Seleucids but their characteristically opportunistic diplomacy was rather impressive and very successful I think.

[antisocialmunky]

Didn't Athens try to take them over at some point prior to Alexander and Phillip showing up?

[Horst Nordfink]

I think Athens expected the Ionians to think of Athens as the pre-eminant city of Greece, sort of their mother-city, which it wasn't as the Ionians were settlers from all over Greece not just Athens.

Athens did help the Ionians in their revolt against the Persians at Sardis, which resulted in the Persian invasion of mainland Greece and the battle of Marathon by Darius the Great in 490BC. If I remember correctly, I think this was the reason the Persians sacked Athens and burned her temples.

Can't remember Athens ever trying to conquer the Ionians though.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, pretty much... the second time anyways. The events surrounding Marathon almost make it seem like a mission impossible.

[AntiochusIII]

Can't remember Athens ever trying to conquer the Ionians though.

"Conquer" might not be the exact word, but the Athenians blackmailed the rest of the Delian League -- including many major Ionian cities -- to practically become its vassal by the virtue of its mighty fleet and their reliance on Athens' military "protection" with said fleet.

So yeah, many Ionian cities sought allies from mainland Greece to protect against Persia's revenge in the aftermath of the Persian Wars, and Athens offered a hand to help. The Athenians did proceed to fight Persia for quite a long time after that too, actually. Not major, full-scale wars, but expeditions, raids, and fleet actions.

Athens' claim as the premier city for the Ionians is based on some mythical ethnic idea that they -- that is, Athenians and Ionians -- came from the same stock of Greeks, the Achaeans (original Trojan War dudes), which was distinct from the more "barbaric" Dorians of Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, etc.

It's probably not true, or at least not entirely true; but you know, propaganda.