Thorakitai Argyraspidai/Agematos Basilikou

[Anakuj]

Dear EB Team!

First of all about Europa Barbarorum. It's not a simple game-addon, or "mod"; it is an artwork. What you have done, is a real wonder. The Antiquity is come alive on my PC. Long live to the whole team! Congratulations!

I have just 2 questions: one about the Thorakitai Argyraspidai, and the other about the little districts/states at the southern edge of Lakedaimon.

So TA: I have read the description of this unit, but it wasn't too tangible (for me!), so I would like to ask you for a detailed description, because I really would like to clear this Imitation Legionary - TA thing. I have read the RTR's forum, and their lead historian states that:

""How about this passage in Cassius Dio's Roman History, Book 36, chapter 13:

"They would have destroyed them utterly, had not one of the Romans, pretending to belong to the allied force of Mithridates (for, as I have related, he had many of his troops equipped in the same manner as the Romans), approached the king, as if wishing to communicate something, and wounded him. To be sure, the fellow was immediately seized and put to death; but the barbarians were so excited over the occurrence that many of the Romans escaped. Mithridates, accordingly, was having his wound cured; and suspecting that there were others also of the enemy in the camp, he held a review of the soldiers, as if for a different purpose, and then ordered them to retire hastily every man to his own tent. In this way he detected the Romans and cut them down while they were left there by themselves."

I'd say that for the Pontic soldiers to look SO MUCH like the Roman soldiers, they needed to be Immitation Legionaries and not some sort of indigenous unit vaguely resembling the Romans.""

I think he is a bit philistine/narrow minded, so I really would like to ask an objective EB historian to clear this opposition and break the IL's legend irrevocably, in a short paper.

And the 2nd one: I asked Forgus about this thing in the Hungarian forum, and he says that there were some cityes which were the centers of the mercenary soldiers. It is a very cool thing so far, but from the 3 territoryes' mercenary pool 2 is similar then Lakedaimon's (Aitolia & Krete). And which cityes are these?

These are my "quick" questions.

Thank you for your really amazing work, keep it up, and good luck to all of you!

[Bootsiuv]

I assume aitolians give access to more heavy cav, and, of course, krete with their infamous archers....but I'm not certain, as I don't think I've been able to afford the cheapest mercs up to this point in any campaign.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Note I am no expert. I merely rephrase what I've read elsewhere.

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Thorakitai among the Royal Squadron)
are definitely not "Imitation Legionaries". The name is conceptual, in so far that we *know* of elite corps fighting in Thorakitai style -- but don't know their real name.

It seems that the Hypaspistai was an incredibly multi-purpose elite infantry corps which delived thorakitai style soldiers; "hoplite" style (the hypaspistai as you get them in EB); and even somewhat lighter armed assault infantry (the pheraspides as you get them in EB). But there are occassions in which the hypaspistai seemed to have performed their duty with simply lineothorax for armour.

Now back to the TAB. It seems that they became a real part of myriad of eltie corpses of the same stature (or a lil' above or below) as the hypaspistai long before the name "Romani" ever caused the Seleukid throne to pay even the slightest of attentions - in other words the Romani existed; but they were merely a people living on the brink of civilisation not a real political factor to take much notice of as far as truly mighty were concerned. Their equipment and existence even predates the Seleukid Cataphracts.

Later on they did adopt some of the organisation of the Romani, but tactics, equipment and fighting style remaind profoundly Hellenic with a Galatian touch.
--

Aitolia = "around Thermon"
Krete = "around Kydonia"
Killikia = "around Tarsos"
Lakedaimonia = "around Sparte"

Those are the regions we use to represent Cape Tanairon - a merc hub.

[Pharnakes]

corpses

Please don't take offence, I know you are not english, but are you sure this is the correct plural of corps?

And if it is, is it not a delicious irrony that the plural of elite soldiers is dead soldiers?

[paullus]

the thorakitai reflect Hellenic innovation based on experience with Galatians, first, and second with the Romans. The swords and shields they used were based on the Galatian model, not the Roman, but their organization eventually--not immediately--mimicked that of the Romans.

its also worth noting that your quotation from Cassius Dio refers to Mithridates in the 1c bc, not a Seleukid army of the 3c bc. There's a huge difference there, and the Mithridatic army certainly had a greater Romanizing flavor by that time than Seleukid forces a century or two earlier.

[Geoffrey S]

the thorakitai reflect Hellenic innovation based on experience with Galatians, first, and second with the Romans. The swords and shields they used were based on the Galatian model, not the Roman, but their organization eventually--not immediately--mimicked that of the Romans.

So it's more along the lines that both the Romans and various Greeks fought Celts and independantly yet similarly adapted to a different (and for certain terrain, more effective) style of combat?

[Zarax]

IMHO the only "100% authentic imitation legionaries" are the later (not depicted in EB) Ptolemaic basilikon agema which was created from the remnants of a pompeian garrison in Alexandria and later the sons of the settled soldiers.

Pontics gets the 2nd place as their imitation corps were trained by roman officers.

Numidians got some roman officers training their army as well but the end result was more a medium infantry, probably in the same league as later roman auxilias.

[Anakuj]

Thank all of you guys the fast answers!