Polybian Reform

[konny]

THe Marian Reforms, though, are really more of a joke than anything else. Cohors Reformata and Polybian Principes are pretty much identical, except Principes look cooler.

Basically they had been Principes by equipement. The hughe difference from Polybian to Marian times is that you now get your Legions all over the world, even in places where no one else is able to recruit anything. That makes campaigning outside Italy much more easyer.

[gran_guitarra]

Okay, so if they are practically identical to Polybian Principes why the uber bump in ukpeep? The upgrade comes with over 40% increase in upkeep, but you only gain +20% soldiers, so what gives? It can't be because of recruitment area, because the team already said that they do not take that into account with stats and costs.

My problem with the Marian Reforms is NOT with the Cohors Reformata. My problem with them is the Cohors Evocata and Antesignani. Those are supposed to be super good and rare units, yet their stats are barely mediocre. Antesignani probably lose out to Cohors Reformata because of numbers, and Cohors Evocata get the equivalent of ONE, yes, ONE extra volley of pila from their attack bonus.
So basically your "elites" stink compared to other elites, despite supposedly being the product of over a decade of experience and training with the best military machine of the ancient world.

Oh, and Augustan Legionnaires really were elites. They were used only in the most dire situations and only consistently lost in the Civil Wars of Rome. They were capable of besting nearly any enemy who came their way, and should be shown for the badasses they were in the game.

[konny]

Okay, so if they are practically identical to Polybian Principes why the uber bump in ukpeep?

If I had made the units costs in EB, what I didn't, I had decided for higher upkeep for them too. They are mercenaries that have to be hired and garrisoned, while the Principes are a militia unit that have just to be called to arms.

[Sakkura]

If I had made the units costs in EB, what I didn't, I had decided for higher upkeep for them too. They are mercenaries that have to be hired and garrisoned, while the Principes are a militia unit that have just to be called to arms.

They were not mercenaries. The legionaries were Roman citizens.

[konny]

They were not mercenaries. The legionaries were Roman citizens.

And Roman citizens cannot be Roman mercenaries (or if you like, payed professional soldiers of the Roman army)? BTW, I didn't know that only citizens were allowed to serve in the professional Legions in our time frame.

[Sakkura]

And Roman citizens cannot be Roman mercenaries (or if you like, payed professional soldiers of the Roman army)? BTW, I didn't know that only citizens were allowed to serve in the professional Legions in our time frame.

AFAIK the general rule was that the legions were for Roman citizens only; others could join the auxilia and gain citizenship that way.

And the definition of a mercenary is someone who goes to war in the armed forces of another nation, for profit. I suppose you might also regard someone who fights for his own nation but outside the regular army (and with profit as the main motive) as a mercenary. But that isn't the case with the Roman legion.

[konny]

AFAIK the general rule was that the legions were for Roman citizens only; others could join the auxilia and gain citizenship that way.

Yes, your are absolutly right for our time frame. Hireing foreigners for the Legions and giving them citizenship in reward did not become a habit before the 2nd Century.

And the definition of a mercenary is someone who goes to war in the armed forces of another nation, for profit.

That is a very modern definition of mercenary, what does not fit our time frame.

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On the other hand, I think you had missed my point, why later Legionars should be more expensive in upkeep than Republican Legionars:

They are mercenaries that have to be hired and garrisoned, while the Principes are a militia unit that have just to be called to arms.