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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default The Kingdom of Koth

    The Kingdom of Koth

    “Then the great drift of the Hyborians swept southward from the cradle-land of their race near the northern pole. It was a titanic drift, extending over centuries and ages. But in the reign of Thugra Khotan, the last magician of Kuthchemes, gray-eyed, tawny-haired barbarians in wolfskins and scale-mail had ridden from the north into the rich uplands to carve out the kingdom of Koth with their iron swords. They had stormed over Kuthchemes like a tidal wave, washing the marble towers in blood, and the northern Stygian kingdom had gone down in fire and ruin.” – Black Colossus
    Capital: Khorshemish (Koth)
    Other Settlements: Khrosha, Korveka, Dagoth, Shamla
    Current Ruler: Akkutho (Since the previous king Strabonus was killed at the end of The Scarlet Citadel, I chose to create a new one sharing the name of a Kothian king mentioned in the same story.)

    One of the first generations of Hyborian kingdoms, possibly even the very first to be forged by those tawny-haired barbarians, ancient Koth was contemporaneous with Acheron and Imperial Stygia. Along with Corinthia and Ophir, Western Koth was a vassal state under Acheron's rule, regaining it's independence when the second Hyborian migrations shattered Acheron's domination of the continent. Out of all the existing Hyborian lands, Koth may have been poised to fill the vacuum of power left by Acheron's destruction, but for whatever reason fate conspired to snatch those early dreams of empire away, and the younger Hyborian lands overtook them.

    Koth is the most imperialistic of the Hyborian Kingdoms, demanding tribute from the lesser Hyborian Kingdoms, and seeks to subjugate all the Hyborian realms under their banner. Although the King has absolute power, there have been instances of mass rebellions led by princes and barons which threatened civil war: the previous King (or Emperor as he styled himself) had employed dark sorcery as an extreme measure to quell such rebellions. The people of Koth enjoy a begrudging alliance with Shem, and employ many Asshuri mercenaries in their armies; however, this is no guarantee that the Meadow Cities won’t turn against them on a whim.

    Based on what is known of Koth from the tales, the Kothic military appears to function similarly to the traditional Hyborian model. However, due to some interesting parallels to the medieval Roman Empire of Byzantium, I decided to take the Byzantines as inspiration for the rest of the roster in a similar way Hellenic Greece inspired Corinthia. Koth's military will consist of two halves: the professional military consisting of paid and well-trained soldiers, and the "modern" Hyborian army of nobles and levies. Depending on how the player wants to tackle Koth, both halves, or even a mixture of the two, would provide a campaign unlike the other Hyborian kingdoms.

    Units


    Skoutatoi Spearmen
    “The mighty gates between the huge towers of the outer wall clanged open, and the king rode into his capital between lines of glittering spearmen, while fifty trumpets pealed salute” – The Scarlet Citadel
    The backbone of the Kothic army since the glory days of Acheron, the Skoutatoi were so perfected to their role that they changed little in the thousand years of their service. They retain the heavy shields and mail of a pattern similar to the ancient Kothic barbarians, though refined over the centuries to make them effective, proud and steadfast spear infantry. In recent decades, their role in the Kothic army seems to be reduced in favour of recent Hyborian developments like the pike and the armoured knight: a wise commander would not waste these seasoned veterans.


    Kontarioi Pikemen
    “The pikemen moved forward, flowing over the ground like the glinting waves of a river of molten steel...” – The Scarlet Citadel
    A new innovation in the Kothic Army, Kontarioi are the Kothic answer to the traditional pikemen of other armies. Although they are equipped with good scale armour and trained well, they lack the centuries of prestige and historical experience of the Skoutatoi, so are less reliable to hold a line. However, used in conjunction with their more anachronistic counterparts, they can be a formidable infantry line that could stop a full knightly charge.


    Peltastoi Skirmishers
    Like the Corinthians, the ancient Kothians used skirmishers heavily along with phalanxes and heavy cavalry. As armour became stronger and more refined, however, the Kothians abandoned mobility in favour of power, and the javelins wielded by these soldiers are heavy and deadly enough to fell an unarmoured horse. Like the Skoutatoi, the Peltastoi are in danger of being replaced by archers and arbalesters, but the centuries of conflict these troops have seen prove they can still be useful in the late Hyborian Age.


    Pronoiar Infantry
    An early prototype of the Hyborian knight, the Pronoiars were soldiers offered land grants instead of gold. Operating somewhat like barons in their small pockets of land, they were expected to maintain their property, serfs and slaves to the best of their ability. Unlike modern knights, however, their land was still technically the property of the king, and so it was not a true feudal system; nonetheless, this system contributed to just as much strife and rebellion as the baronies in Aquilonia or fiefdoms in Nemedia. Usually armed with maces, these soldiers are effective against "real" knights and nobles.


    Varyags
    Blood started afresh from the pierced palms as the victim's mallet-like fists clenched convulsively on the spike-heads. Knots and bunches of muscle started out of the massive arms, and Conan beat his head forward and spat savagely at Constantius's face. The voivode laughed coolly, wiped the saliva from his gorget and reined his horse about.
    Koth has employed Hyperborean mercenaries since the days of Elder Hyperborea, when reavers and plunderers would seek work and adventure in the southern lands. Western Koth would often be fighting with it's eastern half, providing plenty of action for these northern warriors: over the centuries, it became almost a tradition for young Hyperboreans to seek work in Koth, and for Kothic soldiers to venture north for training and experience. As ferocious and dangerous as any of their other elite warriors, the Varyags are some of the finest shock troops available to Koth. Commanded by a Voivode who answers only to the King, the Varyags are nonetheless faithful to whoever pays them, and will fight tooth and nail to get their pay, swinging their gigantic axes with enough force to fell any man in a single blow.

    NEW!


    Hetairian Swordsmen
    “By Ishtar, his heel is on the necks of my finest swordsmen! It took seven years and stacks of gold to train each, and there they lie, so much kite's meat.” – Black Colossus
    The Hetairian or “Companion” Swordsmen are possibly the most intensively trained swordsmen in the Hyborian nations. Drawn from the cream of men-at-arms, they are exclusively trained in the use of the sword, and are arguably the finest fencers outside of Zingara. They are often encouraged to forge their own swords: a swordsman can achieve the most precise balance, weight and synergy with a sword he makes himself, and can attain an almost spiritual bond with the blade. Seven years of training at Khorshemish’s elite academy later, and the swordsman is enlisted in the army (or is recruited by one of Koth’s many rebellious barons).


    Basilikon Guard
    “Here stood a guardsman in crested gilt helmet, silvered cuirass and gold-chased greaves, with a long-shafted battle-ax in his hands.” – Black Colossus
    The Basilikon Guard are the elite infantry of Koth, charged with guarding the Imperial Palace of Khorshemish. Though they rarely see field action, they are remarkable warriors, well-trained and skilled in dealing with a variety of foes.
    Wielding great axes that function generally as halberds, they are highly effective against infantry and cavalry alike, and their decorated plate armour of nigh-impenetrable Aquilonian steel keeps them invulnerable to all but the mightiest of archers. Like the Sacred Guard of Corinthia, these soldiers are most useful as garrisons to defend settlements, being prohibitively expensive when taken outside on patrol or to invade.


    Kataphracts
    “The general commended his soul to Ishtar and sounded the golden oliphant. With a thunderous roar the forest of lances dipped, and the great host rolled across the plain, gaining momentum as it came. The whole plain shook to the rumbling avalanche of hoofs, and the shimmer of gold and steel dazzled the watchers on the towers of Shamar.“ – The Scarlet Citadel
    The Cataphracts are an ancient military corps dating back to Acheronian times. A Hyborian response to the heavily armoured Iranistani cavalry, the Cataphracts are heavily armed and armoured horsemen who still see action on the battlefield. The Cataphracts serve much the same purpose as the Hyborian knights: unlike their western counterparts, the Cataphracts are pure soldiers, with none of the social and political heft that noble knights enjoy. As such, they are far more disciplined and coordinated than the reckless knights, and can be relied upon to follow their general's orders far more. Compared to other cavalry they are slow, but with even their horses encased in heavy armour head to foot, their charge can be devastating. In the later Hyborian Age, the professional infantry of early Koth is starting to lose favour with the government, who feel that a "modern" feudal military was the future. However, the discipline and competence of these soldiers should not be overlooked. In modern times, cataphracts are armed with heavy maces to punish plate-armoured foes, carrying lances to charge infantry, and wearing a complicated and multi-layered suit of armour, honed to perfection from millennia of development.


    Klibanarians
    “The clash and clangor of steel was as that of a million sledges on as many anvils. The watchers on the walls were stunned and deafened by the thunder as they gripped the battlements and watched the steel maelstrom swirl and eddy, where plumes tossed high among the flashing swords, and standards dipped and reeled.” – Black Colossus
    The Klibanarians are the latest evolution of the Cataphract, utilising new advances in armour technology to create a sort of hybrid cataphract-knight for a truly awesome battlefield juggernaut. Deriving their name from an ancient Kothic term, "metal fire", the Klibanarians are composed of the elite of cataphract warriors, and are the hammer of the Kothic army. Combining the discipline of a Cataphract with the spirit of a knight, as well as carrying a fine sword and kite shield, they may well be the finest cavalry of the old Hyborian kingdoms.


    Knights of Koth
    “Across the plain they thundered, grimly riding the storm that scattered their way with gleaming knights like autumn leaves. Another hundred paces and they would ride among the Bossonians and cut them down like corn.” – The Scarlet Citadel
    The Knights of Koth are much like the knights of other Hyborian realms, except perhaps more fatalistic and, some would say, suicidal due to their worship of Ishtar. They prefer to wear plate armour rather than utilise the lamellar and scale armour of the professional Kothic soldiers, which they consider anachronistic and ungentlemanly. Taking great pride in their personal appearance even in battle, knights commonly have their armour lavishly decorated with intricate fluting etchings, gilding and occasionally even paintings depicting scenes of great Kothic battles or mythical motifs. Though powerful and worthy warriors, they are expensive to recruit on their own compared to traditional Kothic knights: their primary role on the battlefield is to encourage their troops, intimidate the enemy and protect the general. While they may resent their beautiful armour being scuffed or scratched, this has little effect on their ferocity or deadliness.

    Coming Soon (hopefully):
    Zaheemi Hillmen
    Zaheemi Riders
    Last edited by Taranaich; 11-13-2007 at 23:41.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Koth is everything we had hoped!
    ξυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
    Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)

  3. #3
    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Cheers Caladwer! Koth has been a real pain to get "right" in my head (they either looked to western or too eastern for my tastes) but I think I have a good enough "Byzantine" look. The Hetaireian Swordsmen are going to be pretty special given how they're described in the stories: the finest Kothic swordsmen are trained for seven years, so they'd better be pretty good!

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadwalader
    Koth is everything we had hoped!
    Better!!! Those Varyag are awesome!


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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Cheers Keravnos, I desperately wanted the Varangian Guard for Koth, so I gave them a sort of slavic twist based on a theory I had about Constantius being a Hyperborean (Voivode is a Russian term, Hyperborea is roughly where Russia is, Russia's where the Varangian Guard come from... and Koth has a few Byzantine teases!)

    Updated! See first post.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Hi, Those units are neat. Just got another couple of books dealing with the Crusades and one delineates the byzantine military system and units very well and it is supposedly the best modern book on the military aspects of the 1st Crusade, but cost $30 or so. The Byzantines of that time had a blend of imperialism and feusdalism more or less. Your units look good and interesting, but I still have yet to load and try METW 2, as I still like the first one and EoD-End of Days based on RTW-BI, but as you know am looking forward to your mod.

    Thanx for the look-see at the units, Chris

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    In Howard's work a substance called "Kothic Demon-Fire" is mentioned. It is an explosive stuff that sorcerers throw in glass orbs at their enemies and is sometimes used in sieges. The name suggests that it is something Koth is capable of producing in large quantities. How about adding units using the substance in to the list? MTW2 - Kingdoms has a mangonel unit that fires explosive oil barrels, I think it could serve with little tweaking as a unique siege weapon for Koth. I can think of a light cavalry unit armed with globes of demonfire instead of javelins, lobbing them at the enemy as well.

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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    I had been toying with the idea of giving Koth some "firebombers" like the Naffatun, maybe this is just the way to do it.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranaich
    I had been toying with the idea of giving Koth some "firebombers" like the Naffatun, maybe this is just the way to do it.
    Mounted Naffatun?

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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Heh heh heh, sounds nasty doesn't it?

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Naffatun for Koth sounds Nasty!

    Good luck with them.

    Zaheemi Hillmen
    Zaheemi Riders
    I am totally clueless on them, I must say.


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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    The Zaheemi are the name of a Shemite tribe that inhabit the hills and mountains around Koth:

    "The hills were the rim of the uplands, stretching in an almost unbroken wall. Here they were bare and desolate, inhabited only by the Zaheemi clan, whose duty it was to guard the caravan road." - Black Colossus

    The two Zaheemi units will be archers and horse archers, since they are used in those roles in Black Colossus. They will be pretty effective in desert climates, with the usual long range of the Shemite bow combined with hardiness and reasonable morale. Since they tend to work for the Hyborians, they might have a mixed heritage with them, and the other nomadic Shemites despise them for their defense of caravans that they'd usually prey upon. As such, they're sort of like the Hyborian turcopoles.
    Last edited by Taranaich; 12-12-2007 at 06:51.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Oh, Ok. I must admit that it has been a while since I last read Robert E. Howard. I do remember though that the thought of being able to read the Master of Konan in his native tongue was one of the biggest motivating factors when I started learning English all those aeons ago.

    And then I just wished his mother had lived longer...


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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    As good a reason to learn English as any.

    It is a shame he didn't stay in this world long, even though he wrote thousands of stories it still seems too little. A couple more Conan tales would've been grand.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Another though about Koth came up - how about making Pelias the true ruler of the ruler? Although the sorcerer is not portrayed as monstrous as his rival Tsotha-Lanti, powerful wizards seem to have a habit of playing kingdoms for puppets in the Hyborian Age. This could be accomplished by making Pelias a ancillary that always appears at the faction leaders retinue when the old king dies. Although the kings are nominally in charge, it is that ancillary Pelias that truly leads things - and kind of is the alter ego of a player choosing to play Koth. Living years of sorcerers are not limited like those of mortal men, so having him stick around for centuries is not a problem. After all, in the Scarlet Citadel it is implied that he is very old already and yet looks handsome and young.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Ruler of the kingdom, not ruler of the ruler... I can't seem to find out how to edit my posts, is it not possible on the boards or does it require a certain post count?

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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic7
    Another though about Koth came up - how about making Pelias the true ruler of the ruler? Although the sorcerer is not portrayed as monstrous as his rival Tsotha-Lanti, powerful wizards seem to have a habit of playing kingdoms for puppets in the Hyborian Age. This could be accomplished by making Pelias a ancillary that always appears at the faction leaders retinue when the old king dies. Although the kings are nominally in charge, it is that ancillary Pelias that truly leads things - and kind of is the alter ego of a player choosing to play Koth. Living years of sorcerers are not limited like those of mortal men, so having him stick around for centuries is not a problem. After all, in the Scarlet Citadel it is implied that he is very old already and yet looks handsome and young.
    I had indeed planned Pelias to be an ancillary character - someone had to run the Scarlet Citadel while Tsotha-Lanti's away looking for his head! I took the liberty of assuming that Pelias would commandeer the Citadel, seeing as he was apparently just as powerful as Tsotha-Lanti, and such a hotbed of eldritch activity would be a highly prized resource for any wizard. When controlled by the AI, Pelias is more interested in sticking around the Scarlet Citadel where the king of Koth just leaves him alone with his experiments, but the possibility of the player role-playing as Pelias is certainly available.

    Besides, the implication in the stories is that the current king of Koth is just a puppet vassal placed by Conan, so Pelias would probably be the "true" leader of Koth anyway.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    That mentioned Iranistani group ,will they be a faction ?


    Cause that would go along so well with these guys and the other greek like group .


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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Iranistan will be a faction in a later edition, probably the second. Although virtually nothing is known about them, they seem to have a pretty major role in Hyborian politics and trade, plus they'll make playing Turan, Vendhya and Stygia more interesting. I'm basing them on the Persians (since they're Iranistan), so they'll have elements of Achaemenids, Parthians, Sassanians and other Iranian cultures.

    More about them will be written in the Iranistan preview (which will be a ways off) but even considering the very little written about them they seem to have made quite an impact on the eastern world.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  20. #20
    Gangrenous Member Justiciar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    You know what I could never figure out? Howard claims that the Nordic-Nemedians and various other groups would merge to become the Aryans. And yet there you have Iranistan of all things, in the middle of the Hyborian Age. Whassup!?

    Meh. A quibble.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondsmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bound, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty. - John Ball

  21. #21

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Also is there a Roman like faction in this time ?


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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by Justiciar
    You know what I could never figure out? Howard claims that the Nordic-Nemedians and various other groups would merge to become the Aryans. And yet there you have Iranistan of all things, in the middle of the Hyborian Age. Whassup!?

    Meh. A quibble.
    Howard did tend to be a bit all-over-the-place with his naming conventions that aren't necessarily linked: Ctesphon is the king of Stygia in the HA, but becomes a Persian city in modern times. Howard's Cimmerians are nothing like the historical Cimmerians, who were equestrian nomads instead of Gaelic hillmen.

    Iranistan is conspicuous in its absence in the Hyborian Age essay, but that doesn't mean it wasn't important: Acheron, Vendhya and Kosala are also absent, despite their obvious importance to their areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by russia almighty
    Also is there a Roman like faction in this time ?
    There isn't really one "Roman" faction so much as a lot of factions have Roman bits and pieces. Aquilonia and Nemedia have Roman-style buildings and agents, though the military is largely feudal/medieval. Ophir, Corinthia and Koth have Classical Greek/Byzantine overtones in their units. Ophir is probably closest to the Roman infantry, with gold-plated armour and red silk dominating, though they're actually more Ptolemaic than anything else.

    However...

    All the Hyborian nations will be able to produce Legions at the highest level of barracks to reflect the rising strength of professional military over nobility, able to be used for a variety of roles. Since the Hyborian Age seems to lack gunpowder (which I feel is the sorcerous community's doing, since anything in the stories that resembles explosive powder is usually attributed to sorcerer's magic), they'd have to evolve a different sort of general-purpose infantry, which I feel would resemble the classical-age heavy infantry most commonly seen as legionaries. Units similar to the legions (some even developed independently like the gallic Neitos and Iberian Scutarii) seem to support the evolution toward heavy infantry with big shields, short swords, a few javelins and highly-trained professionalism in infantry.

    To reflect each nation's evolution over the Hyborian Age, their legions will all look slightly different: Brythunian legions will look like Neitos, Corinthia's will be like Macedonian assault infantry, Zingara like the Scutarii etc. Ophir's will probably look the most like Hollywood Rome's if you like that sort of thing, with Koth's more realistic. Each will also have slightly better/worse stats depending on the nation, which will be achieved through buildings and resources since I'm already running out of room for new units (!)

    Nemedia's legions will be the official Legion From Hell: imagine if the Romans had gothic armour...

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

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    The Scourge of Rome Member Spartan198's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    I like the idea of each kindgom having their own Legionaries,but one question:
    By Macedonian assault infantry,do you mean hypaspists?
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    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Indeed, the very unit I had in mind was the Hypaspists, except they'd use their swords rather than spears. Maybe they'd be more like Pheraspids.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

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    The Scourge of Rome Member Spartan198's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Makes sense. In fact,in Alexander,the hypaspists performed almost identically to Roman legionaries,but weren't nearly as durable.

    P.S. - Sorry for my long absence. ISP problems.
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    The Scourge of Rome Member Spartan198's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Oh,and one more quick question - Your Kothic/Kothian (not sure which it actually is, REH used both in a couple stories) units all have Macedonian names. Am I correct in assuming Macedonia was your model? Good choice, I'm just a little curious.
    My Greek Cavalry submod for RS 1.6a: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=368881

    For Calvin and TosaInu, in a better place together, modding TW without the hassle of hardcoded limits. We miss you.

  27. #27
    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanGlory1983
    Oh,and one more quick question - Your Kothic/Kothian (not sure which it actually is, REH used both in a couple stories) units all have Macedonian names. Am I correct in assuming Macedonia was your model? Good choice, I'm just a little curious.
    Well, the main model for Koth were the Byzantine Romans, who seemed to use Greek names for them, most of them gleaned from historical mods like Chivalry and Broken Crescent. Then again, since Macedonia was a big part and influence of the later Byzantine empire I suppose one could say the Macs were an inspiration by proxy.

    Corinthia will be more reminiscent of the Macedonians, though they've been fleshed out a bit since the preview: the four regions of Corinthia are have a little distinct flavour; North is Thracian, East is Seleucid, South is Ptolemaic, and West is Macedonian, though all are still traditional Hellenic/Medieval.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  28. #28

    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranaich

    All the Hyborian nations will be able to produce Legions at the highest level of barracks to reflect the rising strength of professional military over nobility, able to be used for a variety of roles. Since the Hyborian Age seems to lack gunpowder (which I feel is the sorcerous community's doing, since anything in the stories that resembles explosive powder is usually attributed to sorcerer's magic), they'd have to evolve a different sort of general-purpose infantry, which I feel would resemble the classical-age heavy infantry most commonly seen as legionaries. Units similar to the legions (some even developed independently like the gallic Neitos and Iberian Scutarii) seem to support the evolution toward heavy infantry with big shields, short swords, a few javelins and highly-trained professionalism in infantry.
    Hyborian Age is a mix of different eras and well, it is fantasy after all, but still... I must say that having a medieval feudal army develop towards Roman-like forces sounds very..emm... strange. The key point here is the the legionary-like units were developement of the classical era - as the Roman Empire matured, its military reformed to something quite different as the legions of Marius. Hyborian warfare in general is described as being close to 14th Century Europe. Historically, Western European warfare proceeded from that point toward pike squares, lancers, firearms (tercio squares) and units specialized in breaking pike squares - meaning either light, swift troops like Spanish (Castillian) sword and buckler -men or heavy shock troops like zweihanders.

    Thus I must say that having a feudal army turn in to classic units as a developement is...well...very strange. I'd see something like tercio squares with firearms replaced with arbalests and the like instead as the more likely way for things to turn. Of course,legionary-like troops could serve as the mentioned specialized troops used in breaking pikemen or storming cities, but even such case.. well.. I guess it is the javelins that bug me most. They pretty much dropped out of use as infantry weapons in west coming in to the medieval times, replaced by crossbows and more specialized infantry.

    So the point of this rant is - I think legionaries or other classic units are out of place as advanced units for otherwise medieval armies. However, the Hyborian Age sure is anachronistic place as it is... and it your mod, not mine.

  29. #29
    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    I should say that the Legion unit is one of those "player choice" units that generally wouldn't appear in enemy armies, but one that the player can pursue. The only nation mentioned to have legions are Aquilonia 500 years after Conan, and that's just as likely to mean "professional soldiers" as the standard Roman cohort: I just thought it would be a fun thing for the player to do, it won't really be a major factor on the battlefield unless the player chooses to make it so.

    To be honest, the legions are really a more "original" unit than anything else, since Howard's so vague about it. They are meant to represent, basically, really strong professional infantry utilizing extreme unit cohesion and formation. In practice, they would be used as you suggested: flanking pikemen, besieging and defending settlements. It's just a bit hard for me to imagine what a late Hyborian infantry unit would be like: they're already High Medieval in Conan's time, but without gunpowder we can't use the "real world" as an effective model seeing the effect it had on warfare. Who knows what European infantry would be like in the 1800s without gunpowder?

    But the vast, vast majority of Hyborian Age warfare will be very High Medieval in style, even late medieval if you swap guns with crossbows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic7
    Hyborian Age is a mix of different eras and well, it is fantasy after all, but still... I must say that having a medieval feudal army develop towards Roman-like forces sounds very..emm... strange. The key point here is the the legionary-like units were developement of the classical era - as the Roman Empire matured, its military reformed to something quite different as the legions of Marius. Hyborian warfare in general is described as being close to 14th Century Europe. Historically, Western European warfare proceeded from that point toward pike squares, lancers, firearms (tercio squares) and units specialized in breaking pike squares - meaning either light, swift troops like Spanish (Castillian) sword and buckler -men or heavy shock troops like zweihanders.
    You've pretty much described later Hyborian warfare as I see it. One thing I'm trying to implement is the idea of "tandem units", or two units that are designed to work closely with each other: an example would be specialized versions of Zingaran Pikemen and Crossbowmen. These two units have large gaps in the rows to accommodate their partner unit, so you can make a good "pike-and-shot" formation. Although they'd work fine on their own, they'd be highly formidable in a defensive position.

    So the point of this rant is - I think legionaries or other classic units are out of place as advanced units for otherwise medieval armies. However, the Hyborian Age sure is anachronistic place as it is... and it your mod, not mine.
    They are indeed out of place, hence why they're a choice for the player. Same with anyone who wants to make Hyperborea a land of evil wizards, or have Nemedia abandon Mitra for Set: all about choices that never actually happened in Howard's writings, but were reasonable extrapolations from the stories.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  30. #30
    The Scourge of Rome Member Spartan198's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of Koth

    I like your "tandem unit" idea. It could also apply with heavy shock troops, such as sickle-men or broadswordsmen. You could possibly make them capable of melting through a phalanx or pikewall without disrupting the formation to wreak additional havoc on opposing infantry or cavalry?
    My Greek Cavalry submod for RS 1.6a: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=368881

    For Calvin and TosaInu, in a better place together, modding TW without the hassle of hardcoded limits. We miss you.

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