Are the Koinon Hellenon too hard? (Poll inside)

[gran_guitarra]

Do you think the KH are too hard in the beggining?

I believe so. THey are far likelier to lose than anyone else because they have all those huge Makedonian armies nearby. Think about it, the KH need luck more than anything else in the beggining. If Pyrrhos doesn't attack the Makedonians in the begining you are toast because they will attack you.

If you combine all of your forces in the Peloponesse you have just enough to defeat Krateros, but then Antigonos will slaughter you. Areus *can* take Krete, but it requires very good generalship, and you have to wait for them to sally, since in the streets you are far likelier to lose.

Also, remember that you have to rely on the Generals of the KH, specifically the 3 Spartans, since Chremonides has too few people to really make such a difference.

So basically the KH's military situation seems to me to be just far too difficult to win without a huge amount of luck. Heck, if you take every single KH unit, and the three Spartan generals, you are barely likely to defeat Antigonos, especially if Krateros joins him.

This means that you have the options of saving Sparte and taking Kydonia, while risking to lose Athenai and soon after become irrevocably screwed, or leaving Krete and trying to save Athens through some miracle of God.

The only other factions that have such tough starting positions are the Casse (because of the hp switch bug), Hayasdan (because they are at the mercy of AS while beggining), and Pontos (for the same reasons as Hayasdan).

It seems to me that the KH are just far too rough compared to the other Greek factions. Makedonia has enough military power to hold off Pyrrhos, Siege and possibly take Athens, and siege and take Sparta. This means that they have enough military power to take all of Greece by 260BC, at most. By 250 they should have everything parallel and below Buridhava, and both coasts of Greece, plus Krete and Rhodos.

This means that they can make more headway than anyone else in less time.

Epeiros is not quite as powerful, but can still manage to take all of Northern Greece in less than 12 years, and all of Greece less than 20 years later.

[Sakkura]

I don't think KH are too hard. Once you get out of trouble against Makedon, you're in a great position.
Even if you do lose Athens and Sparte, you still have Kydonia and Rhodos, so you can bounce back. Either by taking the isolated Makedon town Mytilene, or going for Halikarnassos.
I find some of the steppe factions are in a much tougher situation.

[johhny-turbo]

Yeah, unlike Pontus or Hayasadan you have isolated places to fall back on.

[Landwalker]

I do not agree. I think the KH are quite capable of succeeding, luck be damned. In my experience, the faction that requires the most luck is easily Hayasdan. Their entire existence is contingent on when the Seleucids stab them in the back. The Greeks might lose Athens, but that is (1) historically not a shocker, and (2) Not a crippling blow. A competent player can easily hold on to at least Sparta, and from there (and Rhodes), it's not too difficult to start expanding, even if you're doing so with Athens.

Cheers.

[NeoSpartan]

I don't mean to brag but...

I've beaten Mak, Epiros, Pontus, and pushed AS out of Turkey as KH in VH/VH with Fatige OFF!!!! (NO mini-mods of $$, and other stuff)

SO u can do it too.

Try winning with those settings as the Aedui, Saka, Hyadastan (sp)... Ain't happening.

[gran_guitarra]

Yeah, but how long would that take?

You'd have to build an infrastructure that could support at least 6 units+2 generals to have any chance of success.

The most you'd be able to get out of Kydonia are Areus, two levy hoplites, and one Kretan archer unit. Combined with Rhodos' garrison that gives you:

3 Levy Hoplites
1 Cretan Archer
1 Slinger
1 Spartan General.

That is hardly a conquering army, and even if you take Mytilne that still makes you leaves you incapable of conquering anything. In fact, the only reason the player can rebuild after something like that is because of the AI's disregard of naval invasions, which in EB2 (Medieval 2 Total War AI) or EB with BI.exe is not possible.


So if you lose both Athens and Sparte it would take like 20-30 YEARS (over 75 turns) to rebuild to the point you could do anything useful.

[Sakkura]

I do not agree. I think the KH are quite capable of succeeding, luck be damned. In my experience, the faction that requires the most luck is easily Hayasdan. Their entire existence is contingent on when the Seleucids stab them in the back. The Greeks might lose Athens, but that is (1) historically not a shocker, and (2) Not a crippling blow. A competent player can easily hold on to at least Sparta, and from there (and Rhodes), it's not too difficult to start expanding, even if you're doing so with Athens.

Cheers.

Yeah, you can even consciously decide to swap Athens for Korinth since that leaves you with an easier border to defend. Then you can mass your forces and retake Athens in due course.

PS: Kydonia is practically handed to you on turn one.

[blank]

no, they're quite easy

[gran_guitarra]

I do not agree. I think the KH are quite capable of succeeding, luck be damned.
Cheers.

That is not true. The reason I posted this is because if Pyrrhos decides he wants to go chill in Ambrakia with his army (happened to me) you are toast. Antigonos is quite capable of fielding two full stacks against you (happened to me), which there is no way you can hold out against.


Frankly the KH are the second tier of difficulty, and need luck more than anything else to survive.

Like I said, the only ones who start harder are the Pontics and the Armenian, since they all live based on how long the Seleukids take in betraying you. Other than that no. The Aedui/Arverni depend on the generalship of the player. The Baktrians and the Phalavans depend on luck, but not so much since with diplomacy and exploiting the AI you can keep the Seleukids from betraying you till the others are dead.

My point is that, unlike any other faction except Pontos or Hayasdan, You simply cannot hold out should the worst scenario come about.

[Landwalker]

Yeah, but how long would that take?

It doesn't matter, it's still doable. I've frequently run my factions tens of thousands of mnai into debt with early-game rapid expansion (screw disbanding armies. They can die on the battlefield). It appears crippling, but it really isn't. If you have a secure base, you can wait out the recovery, and if you can recover (and you can), then the faction isn't unplayable, and you certainly haven't lost.

You'd have to build an infrastructure that could support at least 6 units+2 generals to have any chance of success.

Actually, you don't. One of my strategies in my first Casse game was to recruit an army I couldn't support, run into debt while I captured a settlement, then disband the whole army. Without their upkeep, I would be back at making a good profit, and a couple of years later I could recruit another unsupportable army, and repeat. Eventually, you won't have to disband as many (or, eventually, any) of your units, and then you just roll right along as normal.

In fact, the only reason the player can rebuild after something like that is because of the AI's disregard of naval invasions, which in EB2 (Medieval 2 Total War AI) or EB with BI.exe is not possible.

But the question is not about EB2 or about EBBI, it's about EB (which, remember, was made for RTW, not for BI). So in this mod, as it was created, the KH are very playable with a little patience and strategery.

So if you lose both Athens and Sparte it would take like 20-30 YEARS (over 75 turns).

Really, you shouldn't lose Sparta in the first place, especially if you bring Areus back from Crete without capture Kydonia. In almost all of my games, which usually begin nowhere near Greece (Baktria, Ptolemaioi, Hayasdan, Pontos, Lusotannan, Casse, etc.) the AI KH will lose Athens but capture Corinth, and then it will hold out solidly. If the AI can maintain its hold in the Peloponnese, so can you. Alternatively, you could wholesale abandon Greece, capture Kydonia, and then take your army elsewhere (Cyrenacia? Hallicarnasus? Byzantion doesn't have a challenging garrison, so why not take it?)

There are a number of options that lead to success. The demand for patience and flexibility does not make a faction unplayable.

Cheers.

[NeoSpartan]

Well it was about 250some by the time I was done... And I though that I took TOO long.

Listen man its simple.

Mass ur troops, use ur biggining $$ to train hopitles and levi hoplites. DON'T let ur army get divided the AI will try to divide you. AThens MAY get sieged a few time but DON'T LOOSE IT.

USE FORTS to delay the enemy, put 10 or 15 men in it (out of 80 men).

Take Corinth 1st, DON'T take many casualties in battles.

Attack with full stack to 1/2 & 3/4 stacks. Unless u absolutely have to, OR the enemy has crappy units don't fight a full stack.

Fight on the UP HILL!!!

Don't get corned to fight in bad terrain.

Soon you will be making a +income, get some hoplites. Don't be afraid to exterminate the population when the settlement has a LARGE population (8-10k or above). WHY? Because u don't have men to leave as garrison, u need $$$, and u don't want it rebelling.

[johhny-turbo]

Yeah, you can even consciously decide to swap Athens for Korinth since that leaves you with an easier border to defend. Then you can mass your forces and retake Athens in due course.

And let those horse loving drunks touch the sacred Acropolis? I think not!

[Bootsiuv]

In .8x they were way too easy IMO.

They should be one of the hardest factions in the game so nigh impossible would be a nice rating for them really.

As far as I know (haven't played a 1.0 KH game yet) they're only very challenging.

There are still several others which are far more difficult.

[AntiochusIII]

Well, historically Antigonos did pound the Greeks really good: he took Athens, defeated the Spartans, and pretty much pacified Greece, and all that with the Greeks being supported by Ptolemy's war chest and a large Ptolemaic fleet operating in the region -- a luxury KH players in EB don't have, I admit -- so what's the complaint?

It's actually not *that* hard really. Just a few challenging early battles and you're good to go. If Pyrrhus does lend a hand it's even easier since Antigonos will go north right away.

Unite the Peloponnese, maybe take Kydonia if the you feel confident enough on the mainland not to need Areus there, take a detour to Mytilene and Chalkis, hold on to Attica at all costs...and there you have it, an economy that can sustain a full-stack army and with only Attica to defend. More expansions in Greece, Epirus, and Macedon will only further increase your wealth to impressive proportions. The Aegean is one of the potentially richest regions in the game after all.

It's true the Makedonian phalanx can give you trouble, but their cavalry shouldn't really be able to do much as long as you point the pikes in the right direction; unless of course you play in VH battle, which in that case it would be your own fault.

Hayasdan and Pontus, on the other hand, will have to go through economic hells before they can even do basic things like building up their infrastructure and maintaining a decent army. Sure, once the mines get rolling they too get rich, a lot in fact, since a lot of the provinces in the region can build mines -- but what can one do if there's not even the money to invest in the mines in the first place, and an enemy far mightier than Macedon breathing on your neck for half the game or so?

The Casse just have sucky bodyguards, a bunch of pathetically weak chariots that is. When I play I them I just pretend that my generals don't have bodyguards and kept them safely behind the lines in all my battles. If I don't they die en mass. And I'm saying here as a person who loves using his bodyguard units as the decisive arm of the battle!

[HopliteElite]

The KH has been my easiest campaign to date, except maybe the Romani. The key is simply, combine your armies on the mainland, disband your rhodes units and navy and always always always use your generals to their fullest in early city sieges. I was able to siege and take Korinth without losing a single man by using my generals as wall scalers and city center takers. Granted Antigonos did not attack me within the first 3 turns but by the 4th, I believe, he did, but at that point my Sparte army combined with my Athenai army and I crushed him with a proper hill defense strategy. After that it is just a matter of cleaning up the mess quickly before Makedon can throw another full stack at you. This is not a strategy for people that do not like blitzing though...

[TWFanatic]

My brain is a sponge, absorbing information like water that will assist me in my upcoming KH campaign.

The Casse just have sucky bodyguards, a bunch of pathetically weak chariots that is. When I play I them I just pretend that my generals don't have bodyguards and kept them safely behind the lines in all my battles. If I don't they die en mass. And I'm saying here as a person who loves using his bodyguard units as the decisive arm of the battle!

And for some shameless self-advertising, try this!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94341

[MiniMe]

Please forgive me for being a bit emotional, still this post contains no personal offense. Anyway, we're talking about a game here.

It'd be great if majority of forum inhabitants'd really start playing and replaying the game instead of making assumptions.

1.0 KH is a piece of cake. All you need to do is to survive ONE siege only, be it Athens or Corinth. STONE walls. Stone walls are walls made of stone.
If you're not able to survive one siege against enemy far superior in numbers but not in quality while you have numerous spartiatai with bonuses against enemy's hetairoi... well then, perhaps EB is really too hard.
Afterwards... Sometimes my KH union is expanding just because Lusotatannan or Carthadastim AI is a bad manager and their greek_culture mediterran cities rebel to my cause. I've got four provinces for free thus far.
One more thing: Phalanx. The real one, with long pikes. Now you got them, and you can recruit them anywhere, from Taras to Antioch.

Syracuse hoplitae... mmmm, what a unit.

Well, some of my Rodios and Corinth family members have really nasty traits and habits, since it's the same with me, I can undersand and forgive them.

The only thing that's really annoying me about KH is their vessels movement speed.

[Xehh II]

My KH campaign was pretty difficult until I allied with Epiros, then it was pretty easy, that was 100 years ago and Epiros hasn't even attaced me yet.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I voted breeze... I know I'll probably get castigated but in 9 out of 10 cases the KH overthrow Makedonia easily and take all of southern Greece. And that's the AI. It should be a cake walk for a human being.

[Bellum]

In my KH campaign (H/M) I allied with Epiros and dismantled the Macedons in 12 years (Killing the remaining 3 family members in 1 epic battle a few miles away from Pella. Beautiful.) I'm really not all that good. Hoplites against the Phalanx is quite easy, just hold with levies and flank with generals and peltasts.

Really, it was challenging, but not frustratingly so. Plenty of exiting battles.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I voted breeze... I know I'll probably get castigated but in 9 out of 10 cases the KH overthrow Makedonia easily and take all of southern Greece. And that's the AI. It should be a cake walk for a human being.

Did not vote for breeze. I mean that's what them Romani & Qartadastim are. Voted the good challenge.

They are note too difficult in the beginning, and become easier mid game. End game however provides you with a quite different challenge - talk about stretched & incoherent borders.

But they are certainly not in the same class as the Pontus, Saka, Sauromatae or Hayasdan.

[Sakkura]

Really, you shouldn't lose Sparta in the first place, especially if you bring Areus back from Crete without capture Kydonia. In almost all of my games, which usually begin nowhere near Greece (Baktria, Ptolemaioi, Hayasdan, Pontos, Lusotannan, Casse, etc.) the AI KH will lose Athens but capture Corinth, and then it will hold out solidly. If the AI can maintain its hold in the Peloponnese, so can you. Alternatively, you could wholesale abandon Greece, capture Kydonia, and then take your army elsewhere (Cyrenacia? Hallicarnasus? Byzantion doesn't have a challenging garrison, so why not take it?)

There are a number of options that lead to success. The demand for patience and flexibility does not make a faction unplayable.

Cheers.

I agree, if you lose Sparta you're doing something wrong. Athens can sometimes be another matter, depending on what the Maks do.

However, if you want to bring the men from Krete up to defend Sparta, then you definitely might as well take Kydonia first. Most times you can take it on the first turn, and otherwise on the second, with near-zero casualties either way. And it only needs a very light garrison.
And you won't lose Sparta in the first 2-3 turns, that's for sure.

[Sakkura]

And let those horse loving drunks touch the sacred Acropolis? I think not!

Hey, it worked against the Persians, why shouldn't it work against the Macedonians. And I bet Spartans secretly like seeing the enemy pillage Athens a bit before they get repulsed.

[Sakkura]

I voted breeze... I know I'll probably get castigated but in 9 out of 10 cases the KH overthrow Makedonia easily and take all of southern Greece. And that's the AI. It should be a cake walk for a human being.

You can't judge by what the AI does with the faction. The AI get cash bonuses, and they are (AFAIK) different for each faction. So it's completely separate from what the player will experience as that faction.

Still, my opinion is that KH is certainly challenging, but by no means extremely difficult. My first campaign in 1.0 was KH, where I did well after some intense battles early on. Full of confidence, I started my first Pahlav campaign. And I got creamed

[Dayve]

I played KH in previous RTW builds, they're a breeze compared to some factions whose names i need not mention. Luck doesn't come into it with the KH, what you have at the start is sufficient enough to beat the Maks. If i can do it, anyone can, because i'm a lazy armchair general... I like to line my units up on defensive mode and just manouvre 1 or 2 units around.

If you wanna see impossible, go start a VH/M campaign as the Hayasdan... Then you'll see a real challenge.

[Olaf The Great]

Stone walls are walls made of stone.

Is now a meme

[Fearless Samnite]

I don't think they are hard at all.......maybe if they started off with one city and no troops and one general with silver death attacking them

hard as in what you do

you can either stay or migrate

if you migrate, massilia and sycruse are already greek and can produce units (especially UNIQUE)as soon as you take them

just destroy all your buildings and group all your guys on a ship and sail west
I took roma for fun that way.......very interesting early in the game ;)


anyway if you stay and fight
destroy what buildings you want to get some cash at turn one
and group all your troops together to fight the black death even sail your east general back to you

then que 1 unit in each of your cities for garrison and have your general in the field buy a truck load of mercs and add those to your already large army........

let black death attack you crush them and take their cities one by one......
exterminate and leave one unit in each conquered city


the end
el fin

they also have cool heavy spearmen generals instead of calvary tend to live longer in battle imho


I play to survive and i play to build an empire
im not playing to simulate history im trying to change history
my armies aren't composed of historical accuracy they are composed of whatever i have at the time thats best

this isn't a simulation its a war game

[Bootsiuv]

I think people place too much importance on Antigonos' Army in southern Greece.

You could easily hold all of southern Greece by turn 4 in .82.

Antigonos (almost) always went north to fend off Phyrrus. If the Epeirote King still threatens Makedonia Proper from turn 1, he probably does this in 1.0 as well.

Although, I'm not sure of the KH make-up in the beginning, so I hope it isn't possible to blitz Corinth and Chalkis by turn 3 anymore.

In my humble opinion, the KH should have the feeling of being on the edge of annihilation in the early game, as the Chremonidean League was never really in a position to build a pan-hellenic empire.

[Malik of Sindh]

KH is pretty easy,just a bit of challenge at start.Anyway Antigonos seems to attack me much sooner than he did in .82.And these spartan generals kill the economy.

[gran_guitarra]

They are easy IF ANTIGONOS GOES AWAY!!

If he and his buddy Krateros stay to play you're gonna have a very hard time. Why? Because you'll be facing a full stack with less than half of your own. If Alkyoneus comes out to play with his army you'll have 1 full and one 3/4 stack breathing down your neck. (This has happened to me every time I've tried to play the KH).

Their worst case scenario (which happens a lot to me for some reason) means that you are left facing nearly two full stacks with only a half stack of your own. That would be incredibly difficult with elites only, but with nasty levies you get owned.

My point is that in a worst case scenario the only ones who are worse off than the KH are Pontus and Armenia.