Phalanx V-formation...exploit?

[gurakshun]

The one I'm talking about is a tactic I've seen on youtube and later fully optimized it for my own usage (optimal physical position of the phalanxes, optimal angle to keep them, etc.)


If you're not familiar with it, it kind of remembles this :
iiiii
\i/
Where "i" represents walkable areas, and the slashes represents where the phalanxes are places - basically you use them at chokepoints like bridges and gateways/wall breaches.

The enemy that walks in gets almost instantly killed because they are getting stabbed from 2 directions at the same time, and the "vertex" of the formation is virtually unbreakable because the pikes are crossed and there is virtually nothing but pike points in that area.

It's been really effective, you can use it with any units that are able to phalanx. It does get broken however...due to a couple of reasons
1) enemy missle units that fire up on your now exposed flanks
2) medium amounts of bodyguard cav/cataphract level cavs are able to push past the pike points and can stay significantly longer than any infantry.
3) the enemy sometimes DOES flank you by crossing at another location (it even happened to me once in a bridge battle, I was so impressed i gave them the victory)

I was undecided whether this was actually an exploit or just a good formation to use in bridge/city battles, because I have a hard time believing that V-formations werent used in history by significantly outnumbered defenders of narrow chokepoints like thermopylae, city walls, or other areas - with proper flank and missle fire, it is unbreakable.

[The Internet]

Thats the thing that annoys me about cav in this mod, they seem to be able to push right through spearmen and units in a phalanx and stand their ground for ages instead of being run through like kebabs.

[fallen851]

And 1000 lbs of horse and rider moving at 20+ mph is simply going to stop dead when a few men put some flimsy spears in front it? I don't think so.

[Conradus]

Horses stop dead most of the time when they're storming towards a wall-like object. After all the animals don't have any intention of breaking their bones when running into walls. A phalanx or schildtromformation resembles such a wall, so I doubt that many horses actually charged right into such formations.

[Moros]

Unless specifically trained?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, I wish the game would make it where the horses just wouldn't charge in on spears from the front - they'd shy and turn or halt just before they hit or veer off. That would be pretty awesome if it would do that, but it'll never happen.

[blank]

Unless specifically trained?

if you charge at a wall of spear points with your horse then your horse is going to go down awfully fast

[overweightninja]

Unless specifically trained?

As blank said even if you could train a horse not to brick it when it saw a wall of spears, it would still just be turning itself into a kebab.

[Sarkiss]

As blank said even if you could train a horse not to brick it when it saw a wall of spears, it would still just be turning itself into a kebab.

hah, you all seem to forget that it would take hell of a lot of power to hold those spears pointed, especially against an armored horse. no one seem to think about broken human arms and twisted shoulders.
and yes, horse were trained. they were trained to the point when the obstacle would not scare them but irritate and desire to tear it apart.

[tapanojum]

I noticed on Midieval II spearmen actually dropped cavalry REALLY fast...

[Landwalker]

I noticed on Midieval II spearmen actually dropped cavalry REALLY fast...

Spearmen, or pikemen? It's been a while since I was playing Medieval 2, but I seem to remember heavy cavalry being entirely capable of obliterating a unit of spearmen with a well-formed, straight-on charge. Pikemen, on the other hand, were a different story completely--they were so effective they even skewered your own cavalry.

Cheers.

[Bootsiuv]

hah, you all seem to forget that it would take hell of a lot of power to hold those spears pointed, especially against an armored horse. no one seem to think about broken human arms and twisted shoulders.
and yes, horse were trained. they were trained to the point when the obstacle would not scare them but irritate and desire to tear it apart.

Exactly....a ton of horse and metal isn't going to just stop because it's dead....the sheer momentum of the dead beasts would probably kill quite a few of the phalanx men in and of itself.

[Poulp']

Exactly....a ton of horse and metal isn't going to just stop because it's dead....the sheer momentum of the dead beasts would probably kill quite a few of the phalanx men in and of itself.

if you stick the other end of your pike into the ground, the problem's solved

[Pharnakes]

but then you have to have the pike pointing into the sky, or crouch down on the ground which is useless for two reasons:

1. The angle means that you won't be able to effeictivley dig the pike butt in, it would just scrape throught the earth like a plough.

2. You are now crouching on the ground, which is hardly an ideal way to defend yourself against any cavalry which does somehow make it thorugh the pikes, or against any enemy infanry which was sent in suppport of the cavalry.

[Bootsiuv]

Those must have been some strong pikes, or lil' ponies with aluminum armor....otherwise, I don't see how it would just stop dead in it's tracks....

Admittedly, I've never taken a full frontal cavalry charge while holding a pike for fun, so I have little first hand knowledge.

I do know that a ton of horse going at even 5 mph would create 'quite' a collision...

[Landwalker]

if you stick the other end of your pike into the ground, the problem's solved

In addition to the obvious angle problem with this, there are others. First of all, only the front line or, at best, two lines could manage this, and everybody behind them would have to hold their pikes above the ground (e.g. overhead, as you see in M2TW). You will never convince me that even the strongest human could hold that position without giving ground to the impact of a huge warhorse in metal barding, carrying a big knight with metal armor. As for the poor mucks in the front two lines, in addition to crouching down (because we don't want to get any roadkill marks on the upper barding, you know), it would have been expensive and impractical to mass produce pikes that were entirely metal. You get a long wooden stick, maybe with a metal point. And when that knight hits you at that angle, your pointy stick is going to snap like a twig, so even if you do manage to kill anything, you now have no pointy stick, and you're still in the front line, so you're either going to get crushed by that dead horse, or mashed to a pulp by the one behind him, which in addition to not being dead no longer has to contend with your pointy stick (and could probably knock away the pointy stick of the guy behind you like a twig, since, as mentioned above, there's no way the guy could maintain that unbraced position with enough force to puncture metal barding).

Cheers.

[NeoSpartan]

hum... charge in with heavy cavarly to a massed formation of disiplined spearmen with armor, shields, & brancing for impact..... Sound to me like a good way to WASTE you cavarly.

[Bootsiuv]

I never said I thought it was the smartest tactic....I just think people fail to realize how much force 2000 lbs has at even a few mph. People die in car accidents every year going at speeds under 20 mph.

[Pharnakes]

Just by the by, but nobody has actualy answered the OP's question, personaly I don't regard it as an exploit, though I don't use it myself, what do other people think?

[dezzerx]

In addition to the obvious angle problem with this, there are others. First of all, only the front line or, at best, two lines could manage this, and everybody behind them would have to hold their pikes above the ground (e.g. overhead, as you see in M2TW). You will never convince me that even the strongest human could hold that position without giving ground to the impact of a huge warhorse in metal barding, carrying a big knight with metal armor. As for the poor mucks in the front two lines, in addition to crouching down (because we don't want to get any roadkill marks on the upper barding, you know), it would have been expensive and impractical to mass produce pikes that were entirely metal. You get a long wooden stick, maybe with a metal point. And when that knight hits you at that angle, your pointy stick is going to snap like a twig, so even if you do manage to kill anything, you now have no pointy stick, and you're still in the front line, so you're either going to get crushed by that dead horse, or mashed to a pulp by the one behind him, which in addition to not being dead no longer has to contend with your pointy stick (and could probably knock away the pointy stick of the guy behind you like a twig, since, as mentioned above, there's no way the guy could maintain that unbraced position with enough force to puncture metal barding).

Cheers.

Entirely metal pikes would probably break faster anyway. I'm not even sure if the wooden shaft of the pike would snap like a twig. Also this second horse you mention doesn't seem to be affected by the dead horse infront of him at all?

If pikemen where so bad at defending against cavalry charges then why were they used at all. Or why where they able to win battles against strong cavalry forces (the Scots against the English or the Flemish against the French for instance?).

[Bootsiuv]

They're the best option for defending against a cavalry charge, that's certain, until the advent of gunpowder anyways.

That doesn't mean it's ever easy for a human to stop a horse. They can weigh upwards of 10+ times what the human weighs, and the human is standing still, while the horse has the momentum on its side.

[Pharnakes]

Entirely metal pikes would probably break faster anyway. I'm not even sure if the wooden shaft of the pike would snap like a twig. Also this second horse you mention doesn't seem to be affected by the dead horse infront of him at all?

If pikemen where so bad at defending against cavalry charges then why were they used at all. Or why where they able to win battles against strong cavalry forces (the Scots against the English or the Flemish against the French for instance?).

IIRC Makedonian pikes were made of very high quality and very well seasoned birch, which where incerdibly tough and resistant to shattering, snaping.

Afterall, a poor piece of wood would likely "shatter" when very dry, leaving you holding a handful of sharp splinters..

[Bootsiuv]

Regardless, it was a foolish commander indeed who wasted his valuable well trained cavalry on a frontal charge of a pike line....my original point is that people seem to think spears and pikes made cavalry null and void for a frontal charge....I think it would considerably messier than that.

[dezzerx]

That doesn't mean it's ever easy for a human to stop a horse. They can weigh upwards of 10+ times what the human weighs, and the human is standing still, while the horse has the momentum on its side.

I would indeed definatly be a horryfing experience.

[Bootsiuv]

I've actually heard of reports of middle age battles where knights would canter (note canter, as full charges were almost impossible to keep in rank, thus they were rarely used by professional forces) up to a line in hopes of breaking the enemy moral....they would then feign retreat, and repeat the process....probably VERY unnerving for those poor levies waiting to be trampled....

[Pharnakes]

Maybe, but you have to consider the fact that even if the horses could be trained, the men of the elite cav would be:

1. Fairly indespensible, so no one but an idiot is going to throw them away attacking pike head on.

2. Influnetial nobles/minor royalty, in other words, the rest of the nobility is not going to be pleased with a general who threw away their fathers?
/sons/brothers by attacking a pike line from the front.

Therefore, pike would be effeictivley immune to cav for the simple reason that very few generals would be prepared to try throwing elite cav head on at pikemen, maybe if somebody was actualy crazy eniugh to try such a tactic it would work, indeed, I rahter suspect it would, albeit with appaling causlaties on both sides, but it would at least disrupt/demorilize the enemy pike sufficently for your own inf to try and break the line. The disadvantage is of coures that you now have no cav, and if the enemy pike can just hold together whilst the enemy cav reacts, then your pretty screwed without your own cav to hold the flanks.

[BigTex]

The idea of even a ton of horse moving a phalanx is a bit far fetched. The man on front didnt need to take the full force of the impact from the horse. He was braced and held by 2 men behind him, and those 2 had 2 others holding them. By the end of the phalanx the horses impact has been split and absorbed by dozens of men.

Not to mention a 1,000lb horse, who's then been armored, and has a fully armed and armored rider on top. Is not going to be able to charge at 20mph. 10 mph maybe, but even then it's unlikely to hold that speed for long.

Even with that momentum at 10mphs with a around 1600 lbs of wieght behind it. Your forgetting the basically laws of physics, if you hit that 1 micron thick pointed stick it will not snap immediately. It's going to impale the horse, go many inches deep then snap and remain inside of the horse. If you think that wont stop a horse dead in its tracks your mistaken. Once that first horse is stopped the rest behind it are going to stop, and quickly.

Charging spear points has never been a good idea. Which is why it generally never happened.

As for the OT, it's kind of a cheap way to win. But an exploit, no since it can be broken quickly with high mass troops.

[Pharnakes]

The idea of even a ton of horse moving a phalanx is a bit far fetched. The man on front didnt need to take the full force of the impact from the horse. He was braced and held by 2 men behind him, and those 2 had 2 others holding them. By the end of the phalanx the horses impact has been split and absorbed by dozens of men.

No, we are (I assume) talking Alexandrian phlanx here, which, IIRC was quite a losse formation, manily to give them men sufficent room to weild the sarrisas without stabing the guy behind them in the guts...

Which brings me to another point, I realy would not like to be directly behind someone when cav charges a phalanx, there is no way that the pike is not going to move back at least a bit, and lets face it its is probaly going to shoot backwards, stabing you in the gut if not careful.

[Bootsiuv]

Even with that momentum at 10mphs with a around 1600 lbs of wieght behind it. Your forgetting the basically laws of physics, if you hit that 1 micron thick pointed stick it will not snap immediately. It's going to impale the horse, go many inches deep then snap and remain inside of the horse. If you think that wont stop a horse dead in its tracks your mistaken. Once that first horse is stopped the rest behind it are going to stop, and quickly.

No way....even 2000 lbs going 5 mph will hurt the front line. Using your logic, the front men would be smashed in between the cavalry and his own men, a fate hardly more comforting IMO.

I also fail to understand the logic behind a spear point stopping a horse dead in it's tracks....they're is just too much weight behind it.

This is assuming heavy cavalry of course, which would be the only cavalry equipped enough to even consider a suicidal tactic like that.

As to why commanders didn't do it....do you have any idea how expensive it is to train and maintain a good warhorse? It wasn't worth the loss of valuable cavalry when the same thing could be accomplished with infantry.

Like I said, it was a foolhardy commander who employed such tactics, but that doesn't mean a phalanx would just blow off frontal heavy cavalry charges.

Nothing short of seeing it actually done will convince me otherwise.

[gurakshun]

As for the OT, it's kind of a cheap way to win. But an exploit, no since it can be broken quickly with high mass troops.

You sure? In other campaigns I've beat 3/4 full to full stacks of enemies with just 3 phalanx units at the bridge. Maybe a real life Thermopylae? The Persians didnt win until they snuck around the other side anyway, which is the only way I lose too (and sometimes even then no....phalanxing the river crossing can hold them off too sometimes...)