Prisoners...

[ULC]

What is the benefit/point of executing the ringleaders/executing them all/releasing them. What abou the "Value of Confiscated Lands"?

[Tratorix]

Executing them all gives your leader a chance of gaining a dread boosting vice. Executing the ringleaders does nothing. Realeaseing them gives your leader a chance of gaining a happiness boosting vice. Don't know what the value of confiscated lands thing means.

[Dodge_272]

That's just the money you get from them anyway, regardless of what happens to them.

[caravel]

Gaining the butcher line of vices from slaughtering prisoners in the field is not worth it IMHO. You're better off waiting for the ransom as either way you win. If the AI pays you get richer and potentially blow away his economy, as he goes into debt and also acquires a host of demoralised and low loyalty units that could plunge his faction into civil war. If he doesn't pay then you win because he loses his army anyway and loyalty for not paying to bring his own men back. It's win win.

[macsen rufus]

What Caravel says is true, but applies to AI FACTION troops, but YLC was referring to the post-battle options for captured REBELS, who IIRC once captured, exit the pool of combatants even if they are released. The choices there are simply whether you want to make your general a nice, neutral or nasty cop. On balance I tend to choose between nasty and neutral - either I execute them all or just the ringleaders. In maybe 1% of cases I might release them all, if I feel like taking the risk of my general turning into some sort of enlightened lily-livered crypto-pinko pansy This is Imperialism, dammit, not a popularity contest

"Value of confiscated lands" is just a way of covering the fact that rebels don't have anyone to ransom them, so it's presumed you steal their land instead (but it always got me little confused as to why you can't steal the lands of those you'd actually KILLED in the battle - after all, dead men are easier to rob )

When it comes to slaughtering prisoners ON the battlefield (ie the little red box) your general is likely to earn the "butcher" line of vice, but if you kill them off AFTER the battle he's likely to get the "swift justice" line instead. I can't recall how these develop, but both add dread.

[caravel]

When it comes to slaughtering prisoners ON the battlefield (ie the little red box) your general is likely to earn the "butcher" line of vice, but if you kill them off AFTER the battle he's likely to get the "swift justice" line instead. I can't recall how these develop, but both add dread.

IIRC if you do not execute prisoners on the field then you will not be able to decide later. Either the AI faction will pay for them or it will not. Once the battle is over it's totally in the AI faction's hands. It is only in the rebels situation that you get the all/ringleaders/release option.

[King Kurt]

I try to role play the choice - if the current leader feels ruthless or say the rebels are a different religion, I kill them all. But if my leader feels kinda loveable, I let them go.

[Xehh II]

It says in the manual that executing prisnors in battle lowers the enemy morale, that's why I execute them if i'm losing, I even managed to turn the battle around once.

[gregori99]

What is the benefit/point of executing the ringleaders/executing them all/releasing them. What abou the "Value of Confiscated Lands"?

I actually roleplay this. If I invade a rebel-held province successfully, I always release the prisoners - after all, they were just defending their homes. But if one of my own provinces rebels I have no mercy on them and execute them all, because they were disloyal. They took their chances and lost

[Bregil the Bowman]

I actually roleplay this. If I invade a rebel-held province successfully, I always release the prisoners - after all, they were just defending their homes. But if one of my own provinces rebels I have no mercy on them and execute them all, because they were disloyal. They took their chances and lost

You shouldn't take it personally. Execute the ringleaders and send the misguided peasants back to the fields.

In battle, I slaughter prisoners only if I'm in danger of losing or if there is a prisoner I particularly want dead - e.g. an enemy king with no heirs. I try not to pick up vices unnecessarily, hence my general rule of mercy for the common soldier.

[Heidrek]

Hi all, I recently started playing MTW Gold Ed. - Great game, I'm throughly addicted now!

Is it possible to get both the Swift Justice type vice/virtue and also get Occasional Mercy or other nice guy traits as well?

How much does Dread actually help in keeping the populace happy? Is it worth it or should you just go for straight happiness boosting traits?

I often kill prisoners in battle for a couple of reasons:

1. To get the Scant Mercy vice/virtue for the +1 Dread.
2. To restrict the amount of soldiers my opponent can potentially field against me later. This makes the conquest easier and more importantly faster. this is particulrly true against the Golden Horde, who show up with a huge army, but no provinces of their own to replenish themselves. Killing every one of their captured soldiers means their army gets dramatically smaller than if you ransom them, and therefore reduces their ability to mount further attacks.

The money you get from ransoming back a bunch of horse archers and heavy cavalry wont help you much when those same units come back with more friends in a copule of turns under a new general. It's not unusual to get 3-400+ prisoners against the Golden Horde, which equates to around 6-10 full units or troops. If I can sacrifice a couple of thoudsand florins to kill half an army that the enemy can't replace, especially when I'm already outnumbered, I'll do it.

Most often I'd rather lose a bit of cash than have to re kill good or annoying units like Horse Archers, heavy infantry/cavalry units. Also, if I've captured an enemy general with a decent command rating I'll kill them all for sure, just to get rid of him. I'd rather face an enemy with a 1 or 2 star general than a 4-5 star general with a -ve morale trait. Especially when they can also get the Captured trait which loses them 1 command, but gives a morale bonus to offset Good Runner.

Didn't know that killing prisoners reduces enemy morale, good to know. I wonder if the number of trooops executed affects the amount of morale lost? I hope so, otherwise you could get big morale swings by many small groups of troops.

The exception to my Kill 'em all approach is weak units. I'll happily ransom back pesants, woodsmen, spearmen and other weak units I've chased down. Good untis though are unlikely to survive a lost battle against me.

Question: Is it only the commanding general that takes a morale hit if they flee? If I ransom back 40 heavy cavalry, and they get lead by a new general, do they have lower morale, or do they keep their natural morale?

[Heidrek]

One other thing too, the Captured Vice gies +3 Morale but -1 Command. If this is on the General of an army, does the whole army get +3 Morale or just his unit?

I have a 9* general at the moment with Expert attacker. If he got the Captured Vice, he'd be 8* with +3 Morale, a pity good trade considering the 9th * only gives extra morale anyway.

Likewise, the Good runner vice gives a -3 morale penalty. does this apply to the generals unit only, or the whole army?

I still favor killing prisoners unless I desperately need some money. I'd rather hasmtring my opponents ability to raise an ongoing defense or counter attack than gain a few hundred florrins. Most likely that would only buy me a couple of new units anyway, some or all of which would die fighting the men I ransomed back. I'd also have to wait to get those new units to the front where I needed them. Killing them now gives me the benefit immediately.

[Tratorix]

The captured and good runner vices affect the entire army under that generals command. So getting your 9* general captured can be helpful, though if your not careful he might flee the field or get himself killed.

[Heidrek]

Even aside from my 9 Command general, the Captured vice is actually not a bad one to have. There are plenty of ways to get your general a few (3-4) stars to allow his troops a small edge in battle. Once he has a few stars he can start winning battles in his own right.

The global Morale boost is pretty decent for the loss of a single star. I might have to start looking for units with Captured commanders to promote with titles and turn into fully fledged generals.

[macsen rufus]

If you want to use the "captured" vice, it's best to find a general that already has it, rather than trying to "earn" it for one that doesn't yet have it. Why? Remember that to get captured, a soldier first has to be running away, and the AI tends to the perverse - if you're trying to get 'captured', you can pretty much expect to get 'good runner' instead .

[axel]

Hi
I ones killed the general and released the prisoners but ended up with a new rebel faction on my land

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
OMG axel is not a chatroom bot but a true orgah?
.

[Ironside]

If you want to use the "captured" vice, it's best to find a general that already has it, rather than trying to "earn" it for one that doesn't yet have it. Why? Remember that to get captured, a soldier first has to be running away, and the AI tends to the perverse - if you're trying to get 'captured', you can pretty much expect to get 'good runner' instead .

You can try to get the whole army captured on the campaign map instead.
Still not easy, but possible if invading (to help an ally or fail the battle) and having disrupted shiplines for example.

[Heidrek]

I ended up with a Captured General yesterday. He was a 5*, but wasn't commanding the army. when I autocalced the battle, we lost and after I checked to see who I ransomed back, there he was. Now a 4*, but till had his other great traits. Gave him a the Grand Marshal title of office to make him 6*, gave him a new army and sent him to terrorise my foes.

He turned out to be one of the best generals I had. It's tough to beat a 6* general thats a Natural Leader and an Expert Attacker, even after he's been Captured. I could have given him an army of teched up peasants and he'd still have kicked arse I suspect. Good times.

Sometimes being captured isn't all bad - it appears to build character!

[The Unknown Guy]

OK, I admit it. I dont know to what extent dread serves any purpose. But in case it does, I tend to make my first king a war criminal with huge dread because his line inherits it.

[Heidrek]

I didn't know this - your heirs stats are determined by the parents? that's damn handy to know. If only you could bestow titles and such on your king to up acument and command etc.

[Martok]

OK, I admit it. I dont know to what extent dread serves any purpose. But in case it does, I tend to make my first king a war criminal with huge dread because his line inherits it.

A general with high Dread who's governor of a province will improve that province's happiness (due to the people's fear of him). Each point of Dread increases a governor's province's happiness by about 8% or so.

Likewise, a faction ruler with high Dread will improve the happiness of all his provinces, but to a lesser overall extent -- each point of Dread improves his kingdom's happiness by around 2-3%, IIRC.


Edit: Good point, Caravel. I've changed "loyalty" to "happiness" to minimize confusion.

[caravel]

OK, I admit it. I dont know to what extent dread serves any purpose.

MTW has two entirely separate "loyalty" parameters:

1) Loyalty of provinces

2) Loyalty of generals

Provincial loyalty tends to be more commonly referred to as "happiness". In fact in game the only place you'll see it referred to as "loyalty" is on the castle info pic, where you can adjust taxes. "Happiness" is the stat that is affected by the stat dread. A high dread governor makes a province "happier". A high dread faction leader make all provinces feel "happier". This seems somewhat contrary but read "happy" as "oppressed" and it makes perfect sense. Certain buildings such as a Church, Brothel or Town Guard, and a governor's or faction leader's V&Vs also affect provincial happiness. In the case of V&Vs the effect can sometimes be a negative one.

Loyalty of generals affects only the loyalty of your army. It has no relation to the happiness in your provinces. Dread has no affect here nor do those buildings that affect happiness. The generals themselves may develop V&Vs that may either positively or negatively affect their own loyalty and the faction leader may develop V&Vs that affect the loyalty of all generals to him. Influence is the key stat, as a faction leader with little or no influence will find it difficult to maintain the loyalty of his generals and heirs (their loyalty will drop and newly trained units will have very poor loyalty). They key point regarding the loyalty of generals is that if the number of disloyal outnumber the loyal and if the disloyal find a leader (usually the best general among them and sometimes an heir) a civil war can occur.

So to summarise. Dread has a purely provincial affect (no affect on army) and has no affect on the battlefield.

[Bregil the Bowman]

"Value of confiscated lands" is just a way of covering the fact that rebels don't have anyone to ransom them, so it's presumed you steal their land instead (but it always got me little confused as to why you can't steal the lands of those you'd actually KILLED in the battle - after all, dead men are easier to rob )

Dead men's sins die with them. If they die in battle their land passes to heirs who may have no taint of rebellion or treachery. But if they are captured and tried, confiscation of property may be part of the punishment, along with enslavement or removal of body parts if so desired.

Isn't King John supposed to have said the best favour he could do his son was to die before he lost the civil war?

[Jxrc]

When it comes to slaughtering prisoners ON the battlefield (ie the little red box) your general is likely to earn the "butcher" line of vice, but if you kill them off AFTER the battle he's likely to get the "swift justice" line instead. I can't recall how these develop, but both add dread.

Swift justice is only for the king to get an not the general. You can only have you king get it once you decided to kill all captured rebels (and not other factions prisoners) a few times.

A weird thing I noticed is that selecting "kill all rebels" once the king is past fifty is rather dangerous. Almost everytime I do it my king dies in the same turn (call that retribution ???)

[ULC]

Maybe He does it personally, and killing that many people by hand can be tiresome...

Personally, I just think it's coincidence and bad luck. I don't htink prisoners do much beyond effecting florins and VnV's. Heck, I had an ailing King who lived longer whenever I DID kill the prisoners.

[sharpshooter]

Interesting thread ... I'm very careful with executions, because they lead to morale and loyalty lowering vices. I'm curious about global effects for stats, and the inheritance of stats that I saw mentioned as well.

Battlefield execution of prisoners - affects only the commanding general
Where the number of prisoners executed is less than 1000 - for the commanding general: first Scant Mercy (+1 Dread). Next execution gives No Mercy (+2 Dread -1 Morale). It's a while since I followed it through, but I think the next is Merciless (+3 Dread - 2 Morale) and then into the Secret Bloodlover, Bloodlover vices - more Dread boosting, but more Morale losses for the troops under that general's command - I think up to -6 Morale. The MTW rationale for the Morale loss is that executing prisoners prevents the troops from getting ransom money.

Where the number of prisoners is greater than 1000 - first execution gives Butcher (+2 Dread). You can get Scant Mercy and Butcher from the same execution for +3 Dread if the general had none of the execution vices previously, but occasionally you may also get No Mercy straight away. If the general already has Scant Mercy he will get Butcher and No Mercy. Continuing to execute battlefield prisoners again leads on to the Bloodlover line.

I seem to remember there's a super Butcher vice, from executing 3000 or more prisoners, but can't remember the effect. Is it an instant Bloodlover?

There is no effect on the King's Dread - unless, of course, the general commanding is the King - or the crown prince, who will ascend to the throne with the increased dread.

Executing rebels on the parchment - affects only the King
Usually on the second execution the King will get Swift Justice (+1 Dread). Continuing to execute prisoners will give Secret Rough Justice (+1 Dread), then Rough Justice (+2 Dread -10 Happiness). It goes on to Tough Justice, and Random Justice (+3 Dread - 50% Happiness). The MTW rationale for happiness/loyalty loss is that the King is executing people who aren't really rebels, using it as an excuse to get rid of people he doesn't like and this makes the people unhappy.

Not a good idea if your king has low Influence, or you're an Islamic faction.

In short, handle executions with care.

Releasing Prisoners
Releasing all prisoners used to lead to the Occasional Mercy, Frequent Mercy line of virtues, which are piety boosting. I used to get these with MTW only, but I haven't seen them with MTW VI, and I'm curious if anyone has.

Generally, I had the impression that rebel executions lead to slightly higher loyalty, and that if you released everyone you got slightly lower loyalty. I can't confirm this.

Inheriting Stats
Caravel - is it confirmed that the King's Piety and Dread have a global effect? I've seen it so for Acumen.

I'm also curious about inheriting stats, since I've not been able to confirm this. The events and activity running up to maturity seem to have the biggest effect.

[Ironside]

Inheriting Stats
Caravel - is it confirmed that the King's Piety and Dread have a global effect? I've seen it so for Acumen.

I'm also curious about inheriting stats, since I've not been able to confirm this. The events and activity running up to maturity seem to have the biggest effect.

Stats inhieriting is affected by influence, the higher the influence, the better stat roll (it's -4-+3, but usually between -2-+2 on all the king's stats).
The young hiers stats are fixed until something happens that changes the king's stats though, even if winning a battle in the empire is enough, even without influence change.
The v&v is decided on the year of "coming of age".

I'm quite certain that dread is global, so piety is probably that as well, although I'm not sure about all the effects piety has.

BTW the governour of the province will get stats depending on what's happening to the rebels. IIRC they're slighly different from those the king gets. But as I'm not that fond of having rebellions on my own provinces, I'm not that familiar with that v&v line.