Cavalry Beat pikemen Head On!

[Seabourch]

I was at custom battles and decided to pit cavalry against pikemen. I picked Noble Pikemen with max upgrades( armour, weapon and valour) against Khans Guard with max upgrades. I charged the khans at the pikemen when their spearwall was down and they took out the opposing general upon contact. They lost quite a few but in the end still won! They lost 19 men from 41 as opposed to 75 from 76 for the pikemen.

[Henry707]

Hello,

I've read all of the posts with interest around pikemen & getting them to work properly. Back in MTW I used to loves those guys - once they started pointing those sticks no-one was getting past - they seemed much more effective & easier to use - brilliant in sieges.

I'm not expert as I never use them in MTW2 but the stats look about right to me for MTW2. The pike formation should be virtually impossible to break from the front by horses, round the back, sides not probs, sure it's inflexible as well but its a useful formation & I wish it worked better !!

Henri (ex-pikeman MTW1)

[ArT II]

pikes always need support. they will face initial charge, but after that are no match. if you read some of the guides (frogbeastegg) it explains a lot, and the amount of micro management needed for them to operate

[lancelot]

AFAIK, in 1.2, pikemen are bugged and drop their pike and switch to swords...I have seen this personally in a game I played.

Cant say if this was fixed in 1.3 however.

[DVX BELLORVM]

In my experience, pikemen are doing well against cavalry, but have a hard time when dealing with the infantry. Which, I guess, is historically accurate to same extent.

Still, they drop their pikes too soon for my taste.

[TevashSzat]

Well, did you put them in guard when receiving the charge and then turning it off??

This is too ridiculous as I remember in RTW, harder AI simply means the AI units get an invisible bonus to attack/def/morale I think so it was quite common for enemy generals to charge right through a high experience unit of armoured hoplites or something

[Empress_Zoe]

In my experience, pikemen are doing well against cavalry, but have a hard time when dealing with the infantry. Which, I guess, is historically accurate to same extent.

Not at all historically accurate. Pikes became something of an all round unit that had to be stopped by massed musketeers. The infantry units of old (Swordsmen, axemen, etc) were phased out during this period, until the musket/bayonet period eclipsed the pikemen.

[Rhedd]

This is too ridiculous as I remember in RTW, harder AI simply means the AI units get an invisible bonus to attack/def/morale I think so it was quite common for enemy generals to charge right through a high experience unit of armoured hoplites or something

In M2:TW, the battlefield AI enemy DOES NOT get any bonuses whatsoever at higher difficulty levels.

This has been a public service announcement.

[DVX BELLORVM]

Not at all historically accurate. Pikes became something of an all round unit that had to be stopped by massed musketeers. The infantry units of old (Swordsmen, axemen, etc) were phased out during this period, until the musket/bayonet period eclipsed the pikemen.

I agree that pikemen were very vulnerable to musket fire, and before gunpowder, to archers and xbows.
But weren't the zweihanders often used to break the pikemen formations? By getting past the pikes, or cutting them, before engaging into the mellee?

[anders]

damn right, Im so tired of people refusig to accept that pikes were the number one infantry units on the field able to take on pretty much anything frontally and win, as long as they kept cohesion.

Not at all historically accurate. Pikes became something of an all round unit that had to be stopped by massed musketeers. The infantry units of old (Swordsmen, axemen, etc) were phased out during this period, until the musket/bayonet period eclipsed the pikemen.

[Rurik the Chieftain]

How long was the pikemen formation? If it was too narrow, the charging cavalry will wrap around the sides. I have had my general killed instantly like this as well, since he stands on the flank and has no pike. I think if the pike formation is wide enough to stop all of the cavalry unit from getting past, the cavalry will get pretty much massacred on the first charge.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

How long was the pikemen formation? If it was too narrow, the charging cavalry will wrap around the sides. I have had my general killed instantly like this as well, since he stands on the flank and has no pike. I think if the pike formation is wide enough to stop all of the cavalry unit from getting past, the cavalry will get pretty much massacred on the first charge.

Unless, of course, the line is too thin.

[Rurik the Chieftain]

Actually I just tested a few situations in custom, and it seems that there isn't much of a disadvantage to having a thin line. In fact, it seems pretty devastating. Of course, it's pretty unrealistic and not historically accurate, but since when was TW ever any of those things? I had tercio pikemen spread out in a line 2 men thick and it killed ~70% of charging royal mamluks instantly upon contact. The rest eventually lost in melee. I even used scots pike militia and it had the same effect, and I only lost by 1 man (40 some men lost 70 some killed). Even when a few cavalry get through, so many are killed on impact it made up for it.

BTW I'm playing on 1.1 right now so this could have been changed.

[WhiskeyGhost]

the downside to having thin lines, is that it causes that painful "Let's pull out our swords and die" to happen faster IMO. If done right, you could actually keep your pikes out for a long time (i do it by having units overlapping the flanks, so spill-over doesn't hit one pikeman in the side and cause the rest to act like idiots)

[imnothere]

try looking at the cost of unit as well. a noble pikemen unit might cost around 470 (base) or so for 75 men, while a khan's guard will easily set you back 750+ for 40 men.

i've tried some good old scottish clan pikes vs some english knights. true, the pikemen were massacre (willy wally's band of heroes not withstanding) where they stood, but the cost of the victory is high. less than half of the english knights were left standing at the end - a real pyrrhic victory.

so in real game, the enemy knights will charged and get stuck in a prolong combat that they can't afford due to their small numbers, while you swept your other unengaged units back to wipe off the knights in a classic Cannae Manoeuvre (i.e. at their sides and their backsides).

Yes. Pikemen are not great when left to computer to auto-arrange, you will need to manually overlapping to prevent gaps in between units or add a schiltroned units in between the pikes. and oh, the general of the unit, in a one-on-one match in customs game, will ALWAYS (90%+, 100% for my 10 tests in custom game) get his head kicked in by the charging horsemen. so move him to the middle or the back.

[Empress_Zoe]

I agree that pikemen were very vulnerable to musket fire, and before gunpowder, to archers and xbows.
But weren't the zweihanders often used to break the pikemen formations? By getting past the pikes, or cutting them, before engaging into the mellee?

Not at all. Zweihanders/Insert other 'shock' infantry were actually more outclassed than normal sword and shield infantry by this stage. Along with less missile protection, they still did not have the reach to break through a pike formation. This is yet another Total war myth I'm afraid.

At the later stages of this game, Pikemen and muskets should basically be ruling the battlefields, especially in western Europe. Cavalry still had its uses, but more in a scouting role and possibly flanking (In reality that is, not this game). It was also used to chase down already routed troops.

Once we get to muskets with bayonets and proper training....well, its over for the rest. Then we start adding in field guns, and cavalry begins to have some use again in the general battle. But that is beyond Kingdoms so I won't go into it here.

[doorknobdeity]

If you use the Kingdoms expansion/retrofit mod, I find pikes to be really good. My Scottish pikes are good even against the infantry-based Norwegians, and in test battles, I've found that Tercio pikemen consistently win against Gendarmes, even without much micromanagement on my part. Keep guard mode off unless you're actually being charged, and if they drop pikes, toggle spearwall off and on; this will remind them that they have pikes and a formation, and go back to poking.

[Meldarion]

As already mentioned price does factor in, I would rather not lose that many of my Khan's guard as it just wouldn't be friendly on the economy. I have done a little experimentation with pikes myself and they have to be one of the most unreliable and useless units in the game, maybe even "broke" though lets not even venture there.

I had the most success by placing two units of pikes in two rows each and then placing one behind the other, so that even if the front unit does falter and switch to swords the second unit doesn't. However, this would take up two unit slots in your army and really isn't viable.

[Shahed]

I was at custom battles and decided to pit cavalry against pikemen. I picked Noble Pikemen with max upgrades( armour, weapon and valour) against Khans Guard with max upgrades. I charged the khans at the pikemen when their spearwall was down and they took out the opposing general upon contact. They lost quite a few but in the end still won! They lost 19 men from 41 as opposed to 75 from 76 for the pikemen.

What game version ?

[Seabourch]

The line was thick enough( 3-4 ranks) , they were on guard mode, not moving when they absorbed the charge

[pike master]

a slight modification in the unit spacing will fix them.