ALEXANDER EB

[Maksimus]

Would be glad to test your project after I finish my yellow campaign with Konny's current win conditions.
Best regards
MiniMe.

Excellent, I think that if EB 1.1 does not beat us.. in a week for sure - there will be a download link added.. Alexandros - charge!

[konny]

It's just that most of what you are suggesting (or all of it) is open for talks and test-modding but with Konny, he is the one that is currently messing with a EBBS - and he has my full support.. I doubt he will ever leave CPU unbeatable..

Certainly not. I like interessting games with a lot of challanges, but nothing that is difficult beyond frustration.

The idea is like the following:

Every faction has assigned Victory Conditions. These are some towns they allready posses and much more they have to conquer. Some or all of these can be "cashcows": the AI gets money help as long as it has not conquered them, assuming that it has run in some kind of problems.

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Example: Aedui and Arverni have both the same VC towns in Gaul as tragets. They get money help for every of these towns they don't own. At the start of the game they both get the same (much) money, what is desperatly needed to get beyond the debth created by the starting army and to give them the money to develop their lands and go around conquering.

As soon as, for example, the Aedui start conquering Gaul and/or take lands from the Arverni, they get lesser money help because they now own more VC towns than before. Up to the point when the Aedui controll all of Gaul and they don't get any more money help at all.

Then again, when an invader comes along, for example a human controlled Rome, and starts stealing provinces from them, the money help again pops up and gives the Aedui money for VC provinces they lose; allowing for strong resistance even when reduced by provinces.
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Now, that's the point when frustration might come up, because you are making the AI even stronger by beating it. To prevent from this and to aviod the "Mytilene-Effect", when a faction is reduced to one remote province from where it hardly can re-conquer its homelands but is getting tons of scripted money every turn, most of the factions have a "capital province", that they need to hold to get any money help at all.

In our example that would be Bibracte for the Aedui. So, you can breake the Aedui (i.e. stop any money help for them) by taking Bibracte. I think that will add to the motivation, not the frustration, of the player?


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You see that this can only be done together with assigned VCs. Otherwise we would give the Romans money to conquer Rhegion and they would use that money to take the Alps, ignoring our wishes.

I haven't yet decided on the amount of the money help per town. That will most likely differ from town to town and will be about or a little less the profit the AI will make when controlling that town.

I haven't also decided for the "unbreakable" factions (i.e. without capital province to hold). That will certainly be the two nomads, probably Parthia because the VCs should make them somehow "horde" south, and may be the Sweboz.

[Maksimus]

Bibracte example is nice, that should also be Pella (or maybe Corintos) but for the AS that should be 2 towns, like, Seleucidia and Antioh, for Aegypt I belive Alexandria is ok, Baktria, Athenai, Rome.. other..

I am testing the 'share' system, in wich Hellenes/Barbs would be able to use other - hellenes/barb barracks (just tu use - not 'build over it') because Army and Royal barracks should be really rare - like in the Historic notes,

But when you take Antioch with Macedon or Baktria or Epeiros, you will be able to train anything in their Royal barracks (according to recruitment viewer)... And due to the new barracks test system that would make any factions have army at the start (but with a few and less options to have many - unless they take other factions barracks)

(based on the same conditions even if you take Royal Barracks in Sparta - you will have what you have.. no more according to recruitment viewer and that is 4 types o units, but Athens is something else, do Athenai should have city_b)

Here is what I am thinking... The big barracks will be rare, so in the Army/City/Royal types of them factions that should be able to 'use' eash other's barracks are:: Macedon, Epiros, KH, AS, Aegypt, Baktria...
And Pontos, Armenia and Parthia should have their chances when they take lands form BIG factions, like AS or Aegypt. This system should apply for barb's too, so they could share the 'use' of barracks but they should not have options to overbulid army ontop of some city barracks (if they want to to that - they start from 0)

So, in that respect, anyone can hardly belive that one or ANY! faction could reach as far as Babylon and/or Alexandria and then seek their army to be reinfored by the homland in Britain of Gaul.. So, I belive that ANY! barb faction should have use of ANY! royal barracks if it reaches that land (but, according to the recruitment viewer - in case of celt's there would be almost no advantage even it they take Alexandria).. Even if that means adding the Regional or Mercenary unit's to be able to be build there...

But.. AS or Aegypt are big- they would have no probs in using just their own barracks.. So, Pontos/Armenia/Parthia should have some use of AS or Aegypt barracks and each others, but to some extend, myabe the whole system should be based on City to Royal types of barracks rather than from muster_field...

So in this way, barracks we keep EB teams ideas (like share system) and 'support' the one outmost realistic outcome that would follow one's faction permanent holdings of the enemies regions that have city/army/royal barracks - wich means - Big Cities.. (so you see, ALL factions should have benefits of using each other's city/army/royal bs, but offcourse that should not go in all directions - because ''uncivilised'' factions could use ''civilised'' factions barracks - but ''civilised'' should not use ''uncivilised'' barracks at all..

[Redmeth]

I'm not so sure on of what you're trying to achieve with this mass sharing of barracks.

So if I were to play the Getai and conquered Pella I'd be able to train all my elites from the hellenic barracks built there by the Maks?

First see if the money script coupled with more expensive and longer to build army/city/royal barracks doesn't do the trick. Trying to revamp the system of sharing put in place is quite hard to do not to mention it could create errors and what not. But I guess when 1.1 comes out I'll implement in my build whatever features I like from your endeavor.

[Maksimus]

I'm not so sure on of what you're trying to achieve with this mass sharing of barracks.

So if I were to play the Getai and conquered Pella I'd be able to train all my elites from the hellenic barracks built there by the Maks?.

If you look closely to recruitment viewer - you can see that the only factional units you will have in Pella with Getai using Macedonian Army or Royal barracks - are just Dacian Medium Cav. and Thrakian Medium Cav. so this system is no big deal really - it would just enable you to train 'some' units and use Pellas infrastructure (like maybe som bonusses) a bit - or Destroy it and gain money! But, destoroying buildings especially barracks in times of war was not ever a politic's of ancient states or factions (that wanted to occupy one region)...
And because ''IF'' condition's for building can not be added - even if you add any level of your goverment - you will be able to use just those two unit's - so.. you don't need to spend the money of reaching Royal or Army factional barracks in Pella just to ger two factional unit's and use some moral bonuses.
The regional barracks are up you to develop... do, one solution may be to make all faction's share the USE of barracks - that means that you can use AS city regional barracks as Dacia but you can not upgrade it to Army regional, Also Civilised Faction can't use 'barb's' barracks - so Dacia would have bonus for Pella, while Macedon would have none in Dacia.

Anyway's I was thinking playing with Dacia one campaign right now

First see if the money script coupled with more expensive and longer to build army/city/royal barracks doesn't do the trick. Trying to revamp the system of sharing put in place is quite hard to do not to mention it could create errors and what not. But I guess when 1.1 comes out I'll implement in my build whatever features I like from your endeavor.

As I mentioned, revamping the system of sharing is not in case here.. The simple optional 'use' of other High-eng barracks is in case of history quite right and that is only for the biggest ones. You don't suppose that Getai would destory Macedonian Army barracks and then build their own for years just to have 2 available unit's? - while tha war is on? I am sure they would use them and develop one military revolution fo their own kind

+ Don't wory.. copy paste buisiness is the only thing here - and I don't make mistakes in ''export_descr_buildings.txt'' .)

note: this 'tweak' is in development.. so it might not be in after all .)

[Maksimus]

To add,

If any finall mark would be done by the script - I belive it would not be under some great or major impact of any 'use' buildings or barracks system tweak.. Because it is all based on RViewer and 'default' 'source' unit triggers..

To go simple..

If you one can IMAGINE that ALL provinces have royal barracks (from the start) that are free for any faction to use full time - and even then - due to the 'RESOURCE' that is ''and hidden_resource's'' you would not benefit from all those Barracks as much as it complies with ''resource'' - because in in about 50% of provinces factions can't raise not one factional troop..

SO, no matter what! Epeiros will be able to recruit Epirot Elite Phalanx only in 3 regions, that is Epeir, Thermon and the Illyrian town above Epeir.. And Medium Phalanx only in Pella, Demetrias, Alexandria, Antioch, Babylon, Seleucidia and Baktria! And can train Epeiros Heavy cavalry only in Epeir... so you got the picture?

The point is that if Epeir takes Pella - he would have those units that are in construction viewer - and we all remmember that When A Gonatas came to confront Pyrrus - his 'MACEDONIAN' army just went on Pyrr's side - that is why Pyrrus has Hellenic Medium Phalanx at the start - but can't recruit any until he reaches Alexandria or Media - that is not nice at all - he should have an option as 'he had' to recruit Medium Phalanx in Pella region (and that should be considered as Makedonia - not just 'sacked' Pella)..

This is just an example so the same would go for all factions - it's just that in Gaul, they should use (better have!) two Army barracks top's + in Germania.. and that should be eniough untill 80-150 turns pass..

[Lgk]

You don't suppose that Getai would destory Macedonian Army barracks and then build their own for yers - I am sure they would use them and develop one military revolution fo their own kind

I don't like idea of sharing barracks between different cultures (honestly, i don't like any idea which intentionally makes life easier for human players). And remember, that using/building barracks is an abstraction, no way real-life conquerors can recruit their core troops immediately upon conquest of predominately different culture territory, it takes years to migrate enough military settlers in (or convert loyal locals to conqueror's customs). I believe long building times represent these difficulties well.

[konny]

I would rather make the recruitement of the local militia easyer. We had that topic before, assuming that a conquerer who is moving far beyond his homelands would immediatly grap what armed men he could find on the spot to have a garrison and fill up his ranks.

[Lgk]

I would rather make the recruitement of the local militia easyer. We had that topic before, assuming that a conquerer who is moving far beyond his homelands would immediatly grap what armed men he could find on the spot to have a garrison and fill up his ranks.

And i would rather make it harder. Anything is good that slow down expansion to historical rate. Unfortunately, RTW engine has no such thing as "troop loyalty", nor the city loyalty level is associated with possibilities for troop recruitment. How can we tell if region populace likes conqueror (and/or his people) enough to fight for him? Do they see him as liberator, as useful ally, or as another opressor? RTW can't represent this.

[Maksimus]

I would rather make the recruitement of the local militia easyer. We had that topic before, assuming that a conquerer who is moving far beyond his homelands would immediatly grap what armed men he could find on the spot to have a garrison and fill up his ranks.

My posts are too long.. I know.. one does not read it whole maybe

Konny.. do you have a recruitment viewer?

If you do - you can see my intentions.. but anyway.. we can talk about it a bit..

In the case you mentioned, one general far from homeland would only be able to fill up his ranks according to UNIT - according to the 'resource' - that means he could fill up 'some' low-end unit's ranks in the best and most case those are peltasts - but NOT elites or medium units that we are so afraid of..

The example I have added to the Epeiros is clear really.. They can reach INDIA and can only retrain their low-end troops (some of them) - that means troops that can't win battles for India or Media or the Stepe's .. but can't use elites - unless they take Successor's capital's in wich case they could only profit some units.. see?
And getai could reach Sparta but could only have ragionall units they would have to develop first

Just look at the recruitment viewer? I really think that is clear

I agree for militia do.. That could be done easilly in adding making all share 'use' of regional barracks or connecting it to other structure - like town_hall's or palace's..
personally I would like any faction to use any other faction's regional barrack's wich is alot more troop btw then using your barracks for the core - factional troops..

It is just a matter of resources... so we can add recruitment to any building or change anything...

note for konny.. and you see that I and Lgk have the same signatures.. you could just add one..

[Maksimus]

I don't like idea of sharing barracks between different cultures (honestly, i don't like any idea which intentionally makes life easier for human players). And remember, that using/building barracks is an abstraction, no way real-life conquerors can recruit their core troops immediately upon conquest of predominately different culture territory, it takes years to migrate enough military settlers in (or convert loyal locals to conqueror's customs). I believe long building times represent these difficulties well.

No.. no.. greeks-greeks barbs-barbs it's just that Getai were an example.. anyway's - they have only possibility of usin 2 Unit's no matter what! And the point is that Celt's for example don't have a bonus of Royal Barracks in Seleucidia at all or in Pella or Athenai - the celt's just don't even have an option to raise any army in greece - exept regional - and that needs to be build

And cultures don't share as such.. they just 'use' ones barracks and can't upgrade them .. like in the cases in history when Nikator killed Thracian King and took Thracian army - and then Ptolomy son kiled Seleucid in a tent and then took the same thracian army and made himself a king of Macedon.. just after he came from Asia Minor into Greece and that army was still fighting after that for Pyrros I think..
And Gonatas had problems when his army left him just before the finall fight agains Pyrros - the whole Macedonian army just swiched sides! And made Pyrros their king.. and after Pyrros was dead they went back to Gonatas..

There are proofs for this..

Anyway.. the game is even harder for the player with this army system.. when AI could use some enemies barracks - but see, the point is to make Less Army and Royal barracks as a result - that way the chances for retraining options by human would be 0 or +1

YOU SHOULD LOOK on the Recruitment Viewer

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93502

[Maksimus]

And i would rather make it harder. Anything is good that slow down expansion to historical rate. Unfortunately, RTW engine has no such thing as "troop loyalty", nor the city loyalty level is associated with possibilities for troop recruitment. How can we tell if region populace likes conqueror (and/or his people) enough to fight for him? Do they see him as liberator, as useful ally, or as another opressor? RTW can't represent this.

I would rather make it harder too but the "troop loyalty" issue was discussed more time's over.. And we can't tell if region populace likes conqueror (and/or his people) enough to fight for him - but what we may say is that it this case - those are REGIONAL troops - not factional so you and I and anyone can consider them to fight for money - like in the war's of the Successor's states..

But - yes, You are right 100% if we are talking about factional troops.. But if you think that Hellenic native phalanx officer's had a hard time of filling the ranks of their units - I would say no.. really.. I would say yes if Macedons are in Germania or North-East Africa or India - but not in the places that are MARKED in Recruitment Viewer for Native Phalanx..

The point is that you can't retrain units in AREAS that are not mented for that unit to be trained - like in Germania or the Stepes.. And one more thing is here at hand... you know.. When Napoleon at Russia he took about 650 000 men of wich about 180 000 were from the Germanic states of wich about 50 000 of Serbs for Austro-Hungarian Empire .. see, those Serbs even had to go or loose their famillies, and that goes too for many german's...

And.. in those Ancient times the most important were the CULTURES not the rulers by my opinion - all ruler's were tyrants mostly that forced the population to fight to some extend - that extend is wery well done in the Ecruitment Viewer - the '' another opressor '' issues are already implemented by the resources that 'give' an option to train certan units..

please look at the Recruitment Viewr.. anyways - we don't have to implement whole barracks system or any part of it ... it's just that this way WE MOTIVATE players to realy take Alexandria with another Greek culture..

And пријатељу PLEASE HELP more in the BI features.. get some sleep and then type

be well my friend!

[konny]

Oh, okay. I'm probably not that interested in an EB mini-mod that's geared for VH/VH, and am pretty concerned about letting the AI develop golden stacks of anything, since although the human player might capture such a city, the AI definitely wouldn't.

It was allready said, but just to ensure: The AI is retraining, but not everything, everytime, everywhere. It also seems to merge, leave the units as they are and build new ones instead of retraining. I have no idea what influence that decision.

I had so far two occasions in which the AI was constantly retraining: the one was Pella, with its "monster army" and the other occasion is Taras. But the AI is also moving these forces away when the town is not constantly threatened. That happened to the retrained Baktrian "militia force" of what I had posted a screenshot in the other thread, and that had now also happened to the garrison in Pella, where I only could find one full unit of 2x gold Petzhetairoi of the old garrion while the rest were all 'fresh' levy-class units.

My posts are too long.. I know.. one does not read it whole maybe

Well, I am to apologize if I had brought up something that was allready discussed. It's getting close to Christmas and the customers are running amok, so I had not so much time today to read the entire thread.

Konny.. do you have a recruitment viewer?

I launch that tool more often than EB itself, planning my next army in every spare minute.

In the case you mentioned, one general far from homeland would only be able to fill up his ranks according to UNIT - according to the 'resource' - that means he could fill up 'some' low-end unit's ranks in the best and most case those are peltasts - but NOT elites or medium units that we are so afraid of..

OK, let me step in here the first time: I am not afraid of the elites. In fact I am happy when they are offering me anything better than Pantodapoi or Lugoae. And since I often outnumber the AI, not so often with the ALX.exe, I must admit, I don't mind when the overall quality of the AI units is better than that of my army.

The example I have added to the Epeiros is clear really.. They can reach INDIA and can only retrain their low-end troops (some of them) - that means troops that can't win battles for India or Media or the Stepe's .. but can't use elites - unless they take Successor's capital's in wich case they could only profit some units.. see?

That's the fate of the Epeirotes living on the Adriatic shores, I would say. They have no businness to hang around in India. And yes, they get Phalanxes and Thureophoroi from the Succesor major towns because there the needed number of Hellenics is living used to fight in that manner.

May be that example is not so obvious because the Epeirote are somewhat Alexandrish and he was in India. But send them the other way. What means does a top level Casse MIC have for Epeiros? No one there has ever heard of Linothorax, long pikes, fighting in formations, heavy cavalry and the like what makes the Epeirote military machine.

And getai could reach Sparta but could only have ragionall units they would have to develop first

Yes, that "develop" in EB gives me a little headache, because I don't see what the Getai must develop in Sparta to make the Spartans fight as Hoplites. But there must be a way to distinguish the boni of the different governements, and the only way I can think of is spliting the army into "locals" and "factionals".

It is just a matter of resources... so we can add recruitment to any building or change anything...

But, is that really needed?

[Maksimus]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Konny.. My english is much worse than your's so I have probs in explaining what I think..

The point of my post's that is based on 'tweaking' the ''exp_descr_units.txt'' was already tested by myself in various occasions in my modds for RTW.. I call it Army-system.. Now..My mod is very popular ones in my country just due to that system.. so..but.. ufff..

I am getting sleepy..Ok.. Just trust me on this.. We will test it.. ok?
I will finish those tweaks in two day's and upload it here so we can discuss it .. I am sure it will be fine.. This is what I will mod so it can be tested a bit..


1- Making Faction's capitols start with Army Barrack's (or Royal in case of Seleucid's and Aegypt).. + na army barrack's in Seleucidia maybe ? but we shoud sure make Spartans a royl one so one can use them as they were used against Pyrros

2- Make factions share 'use' of barracks but not 'upgrading' them (so the EB share system persist's)

On one side: Hellenes shold share 'use' (epir,mak,kh,bak,as,aegypt) and on the other side barb's (celt's,germania,dacia,spain), the nomads (sar,saka,parthia) and the last - the easterns (pont,armenia,parthia).. Now, Saba, Pontos and Armenia can 'use' hellenic and carthaginina faction's barrack's (as one small faction would have had to use!). Parthia should use only AS's, Baktrian and Aegypt's barrack's, And All barb's could use ''civilised'' factional barracks in the City/Army/Royal level - and that would help them with almost NO UNIT's AT all..

Also, there are some +1 or in royal +2 bonuses (for law and trade) that could be altered

3- This is most important, I will make this test version adding the construction times for barrack's nad Palace's + 4 to + 6 times ..

4- I will add the system for regionall barrack's so anyone can 'use' anyone's regional barrack's (so, here too, the EB share system persist's )

I wiil make this in one-two days and post here for tes't - JUST test's .. Ok?

note: Lgk.. for you I will add the manual so you can - copy paste it -- or 7z ?

Ok... Of I go!

[Lgk]

2- Make factions share 'use' of barracks but not 'upgrading' them (so the EB share system persist's)

On one side: Hellenes shold share 'use' (epir,mak,kh,bak,as,aegypt) and on the other side barb's (celt's,germania,dacia,spain), the nomads (sar,saka,parthia) and the last - the easterns (pont,armenia,parthia)..

4- I will add the system for regionall barrack's so anyone can 'use' anyone's regional barrack's (so, here too, the EB share system persist's

Please, no! I don't like shared "auxiliary barracks" in XGM, and definitely don't wish to see such things in EB. Neither with factional MICs. As i said, rebuilding "barracks" is rather an abstraction representing period of stabilization in recently conquered region. In that context, any hindrance to fast expansion is good imo. Come to think, greeks/macedons/epirotes/etc squabbled each other for centuries, and never one "faction" emerged as total victor, crushing all opposition permanently - that is, until very roman conquest. Because of RTW limitations, small patch of ground like Greece can be blitzed in just one year. This is even more aggravated by the lack of regions there in EB (XGM has a much better map in most respects... but that's another story). Maybe only post-marian Rome deserves such bonus as ability to use other factions MICs.

I mean, first and foremost we should think how to delay human player (while not getting him killed early, except that rush should be punishable by death imo - hard to implement, but worth trying) and provide more interesting mid-to-late game experience rather than speed up the AI expansion.

note: Lgk.. for you I will add the manual so you can - copy paste it -- or 7z~

Any way you like.

[Maksimus]

Please, no! I don't like shared "auxiliary barracks" in XGM, and definitely don't wish to see such things in EB. Neither with factional MICs. As i said, rebuilding "barracks" is rather an abstraction representing period of stabilization in recently conquered region. In that context, any hindrance to fast expansion is good imo. Come to think, greeks/macedons/epirotes/etc squabbled each other for centuries, and never one "faction" emerged as total victor, crushing all opposition permanently - that is, until very roman conquest. Because of RTW limitations, small patch of ground like Greece can be blitzed in just one year. This is even more aggravated by the lack of regions there in EB (XGM has a much better map in most respects... but that's another story). Maybe only post-marian Rome deserves such bonus as ability to use other factions MICs.

I mean, first and foremost we should think how to delay human player (while not getting him killed early, except that rush should be punishable by death imo - hard to implement, but worth trying) and provide more interesting mid-to-late game experience rather than speed up the AI expansion.


Any way you like.

Ok.. ok...ok... I will stop working on it this instance
my god But you must give me proof that you have had a look at Recruitment Viewer - so I know that you are not thinkig that sharing maens what it ment in vanilla?

...No matter.. ok. I am stoping my work on barrack system right now and I am back to vanilla *txt... What now?
What do you propose?? How do we delay human player so that it would be ok??

(note: We should add those changes to Horse Archer's that would give them 1,2 or 1,5 hit points that should reflect auto-calculations among CPU faction's)

What else? Do you want unit tweak's or some *txt_files changes?

ok

::WE HAVE::

Changes in the EBBS script so we can control money inflows.. and AI expansion's with all features that could be tested Lgk, see with ]Konny that we have ONE way.. for testing.. you know ; I am waithing for you two to go out with something so I can test it like upload your done EBBS files here... ok?

Thing's that should be in EBBS script are the added Army barracks for all factions in the capitol's (exept AS that would have one more in Seleucidia) and Royal barrack's for Alexandria and Antiochus and Sparta (so that Spartan's can be used right away)... and building's for Nomad's that would have level ''royalh'' or ''highkingc'' while I think the Saka should be the strongest there...

In export_descr_building's I will add bonuses of law and trade (like +1) for Army and Royal barracks, I also think that Walls shoud have a small bonus, then the Academy.. Here The Academic building's have had one major importance for all in one city - MA Antonius saw that and added it to City Mod.. that is very nice..

Also adding a wall to Pella or Pergam and Armenian and Baktrian and Pontos capital - would be good, also mine's in Pergamum, And Sidon and the Western Province of Armenia - so we can support small faction's players more..

And Palaces should have + 5 or + 8 times longer to build.. so we don't end with super Imperial Cities after 100 turn's - there should not be alot of Huge Cities ...

And Mercenaries should have atleast +1 expirience that would bring realism..

Now... I want comments on these issues please (note: all comment's are welcome but Konny and Lkg are the ones that are needed here )

And one more thing - Anything you want to be added or modded - just say..

[Lgk]

Recruitment viewer and AOR system don't matter here. I mean, conqueror shouldn't be able to recruit anybody (even cheap/low quality troops) immediately upon conquest of alien region... even more, he must spend extra time and money to install proper government and build new barracks, thus making his expansion slower.

[Redmeth]

Adding law and trade bonuses to upper tier barracks doesn't seem like a good idea, you already have the city garrison buildings for the law bonus and the trade bonus doesn't feel right, although you could argue that at the highest level they'd produce more weapons than they need thus trade...

Be careful with placing mines, placing them near small factions in rebel settlements could work but don't give them to factions like Maks (be careful of the balance in Greece) doing something might make one of the factions there win in Greece all the time.

[konny]

Ok.. ok...ok... I will stop working on it this instance
my god

You can mod your files as every you like, but you should always keep in mind that everything you do to slow down or help the humand player will even more slow down or help the AI; unless you use scripts that include a "not faction is local" line.

That is in particular true for raising build times for structures. When you make barracks 4x or 5x slower to build you won't stop the AI from building them anyways. Even more, the AI will build them even when it does not benefit from it. Set your towns to "automanage" and you'll see poping up of local barracks in your very heartlands, even though you will never be able to raise any units from them.

When you have 12 turns (i.e. 3 years) build time for a top level barracks you can be sure that the AI will build them ASAP and whereever possible, blocking the respective towns for three years. The human player is much smarter and would build top level barracks only were desperatly needed. He would (or at least, I would) rather build mines or a harbour before, because having elite barracks is pointless when you don't have the money to pay for the elites.

Now imagine the build time would 12 or 15 years(!). You won't stop the AI from building these structures (barracks and town halls are the first one it builds), but would prevent him from building anything else there in all these years. Most likely, it would lose the town to rebellion meanwhile.

What do you propose?? How do we delay human player so that it would be ok??

We simply don't. It is up to every player to use or not use houserules and to roleplay his characters to set the speed of his advandce. He might or might not blitz the map. I don't do so, but I won't spend any time in preventing other players from doing it.

In fact, I think that EB has allready gone a step to far with the respawning stacks. For the human player these provinces might as well belong to Arabia Deserta - but the AI is butchered there.

(note: We should add those changes to Horse Archer's that would give them 1,2 or 1,5 hit points that should reflect auto-calculations among CPU faction's)

Under absolute no circumstances should any regular units get more hitpoints. Deleting the 2 hitpoints from the Naked Fanatics was about the first things I did with EB 1.0. It is completly unbalacing the game, especially when the AI starts spamming those units.

In export_descr_building's I will add bonuses of law and trade (like +1) for Army and Royal barracks

What do barracks have to do with trade?

[Redmeth]

The AI will stop spamming Gaesatae or at least will do so in the late game due to changes in their AOR they will be mostly available around the Alps in the area contested by Gauls, Romans and Sweboz although each of the Aedui and Arvernii might get a chance to recruit them...

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

is there any chance that simply using the city mod will solve the balance problem?

[Maksimus]

Well, all I stand for is because I would like to find more balance betwean the game and historic note's - this under show's that EB did not found one;





Now. Everyone can see and know that you too would like that 'NOT ALL' cities go to Huge or Large - that can be worked out by adding negative population bonuses so the cites that were never big - become big only in the case Human invest's time and money

You can mod your files as every you like, but you should always keep in mind that everything you do to slow down or help the human player will even more slow down or help the AI; unless you use scripts that include a "not faction is local" line.

That is in particular true for raising build times for structures. When you make barracks 4x or 5x slower to build you won't stop the AI from building them anyways. Even more, the AI will build them even when it does not benefit from it. Set your towns to "automanage" and you'll see poping up of local barracks in your very heartlands, even though you will never be able to raise any units from them.

When you have 12 turns (i.e. 3 years) build time for a top level barracks you can be sure that the AI will build them ASAP and whereever possible, blocking the respective towns for three years. The human player is much smarter and would build top level barracks only were desperatly needed. He would (or at least, I would) rather build mines or a harbour before, because having elite barracks is pointless when you don't have the money to pay for the elites.

Well, not for me I play on VH/VH and extensive campaigns so I have risks and Heroic victories that are allowing me to Sack enemy town's and raise elites that I need to expand! Look at this, it's my early Epeiros campaign on VH/VH based on Alex.exe
This one is based on Alex.exe and on VH/VH and huge armies

This is the finall battle against Romans.. I had one Heroic infront of Rome


And the end of the battle (fought without time limit fo 1 hour)

and some against KH in the same camapign
At Kypros fighting Rebel-ends of KHellenon that have been destroyed a battle before after I took Rhodos

I ended very good for me on VH/VH.. the rest is history!


And then I was campaigning in North Italy with elites!



And Massalia !




So I think we have different views on EB after all, It's just that I can not Imagine to win agains't Rome without Elites - that is not history! And about money thing - it is not history that Pyrros or Any faction's of that time had to waith for 50! turns so it can afford them

BUT! Making the Army barrack's at the start will enable ME (for example) to use SOME small number of elites because I play extensive campaign and anyone that does not - so you can have them - but work for them

Now imagine the build time would 12 or 15 years(!). You won't stop the AI from building these structures (barracks and town halls are the first one it builds), but would prevent him from building anything else there in all these years. Most likely, it would lose the town to rebellion meanwhile..

Making the 'core' buildings (for me those are structures that AI is hardcoded to build) construction times last 5 or 10 times more (like we have 30-60 turns for some In EB!) would make AI not develop as fast and furious as it is now and eventually lead that town's don't become Large or Huge (unless you like all those super-mega-cities as early as 150bc). So either implementing a more wider version of City Mod or giving the - high-end Palaces + 3-4 times to construction - would have solve this too.. I really hate to see Huge and Large cities all around me until a reach Asia with my army from Greece

We simply don't. It is up to every player to use or not use houserules and to roleplay his characters to set the speed of his advandce. He might or might not blitz the map. I don't do so, but I won't spend any time in preventing other players from doing it.

That's fine.. the game setting's are hard as they are

Under absolute no circumstances should any regular units get more hitpoints. Deleting the 2 hitpoints from the Naked Fanatics was about the first things I did with EB 1.0. It is completly unbalacing the game, especially when the AI starts spamming those units.

Konny.. I think you did not get the point (because I did not explained).. EB 1.1 will come with these HP tweaks - only because anything betwean 1 and 2 HP (like 1,2 or 1,6 or 1,9) is just 1 HP for battle's - but is 1,2 for Auto-calculations that AI uses, in that way even when you play against Horse Archers you will have 50% losses with Infantry and most likely loose - but on Auto-calculations you will have 10% looses and win - That is a bug from vanilla.. (the same was for elephant's or chariot's that were owerpowerd in autoresolve but not in played battles) and EB 1.1 will tweak that anyway ..

What do barracks have to do with trade?

When Army is eqiuped - that takes money and 'Imports' and if you have big army and Armoury - that means more imports and/or even exports if the armoury start's to make arms for export's - Trade Market's can be in this buissines but and can have + 1 to trade when there is an city/army/royal barrack's but due to the 1.5 engine it can not be used in EB for RTW, and I am not sure if that could be used in ALex engine - So the barracks it self give the trade and law boost - even today, armies and their barracks keep economic growth and boost trade and income for local's in more region's of the world than we can imagine. Some times just because for the army state create trade and economic growth

I know that I am Master of Economy

[Maksimus]

is there any chance that simply using the city mod will solve the balance problem?

That may be one solution with some tweak's that would enable more town's to be huge or large - in this case capitol's of all faction's ... but not all cities in Asia and Greece

[Maksimus]

Adding law and trade bonuses to upper tier barracks doesn't seem like a good idea, you already have the city garrison buildings for the law bonus and the trade bonus doesn't feel right, although you could argue that at the highest level they'd produce more weapons than they need thus trade...

They point is not production - but import's and export's of weapon's and arm material's.. Just one example, the pikes of the phalanx, are made after wood is imported from outside the city - so, when a trader come's and sell's the wood to the army he will gain profit's but he would do that in the market or in the direct conntac't with the army - but then there is competition to that trader that want's a part of the share state is giving to the army.. so you see, the trader's pay a share on their goods when they enter a city.. some part of that can finish in barracks or on the market - BUT the first cause trader's would come to the city is becasuse the State has it's army (that has money given by the state) in the city.. + the army keeps peace and protect's the trade and boost's the trade... Even armoury boost's trade..

And Academy due because it makes smart and rich traders that finish school and that make new markets and banking or investment's system's

The Stone Wall's also have nice effect to the trade and and population growth, look at Corintos or Athenai, or Constantinopolis.. No big trade would be in motion in cities without good defences and army.. nor would big population live and boost in 'big' cities without Stone Wall's... There are no big cities without stone walls... that's why CityMod solve's much

But the point is that due to the 1.5 patch engine - EB team can not add bonuses to building's if other building's are constructed

So the bonuses must come to the building itself..

Be careful with placing mines, placing them near small factions in rebel settlements could work but don't give them to factions like Maks (be careful of the balance in Greece) doing something might make one of the factions there win in Greece all the time.

I think that there are no mines that should be added to greece - unless.. those epic mines of Pelle (but if that would bring down the balance - then no)

[Maksimus]

Recruitment viewer and AOR system don't matter here. I mean, conqueror shouldn't be able to recruit anybody (even cheap/low quality troops) immediately upon conquest of alien region... even more, he must spend extra time and money to install proper government and build new barracks, thus making his expansion slower.

That is in EB already, only thing we can't break is the ''resource'' system of EB, because the EB team made it work by the historic populaiton standard's so you can't have elite phalanx trained in Germania.. Or you can... but after a long time that could take to construct a barrack's.. That long time for Army or Royal barrack's (that would enable elites in Germania should be like 30-40 turn's not less)..
But then again, that is without resource system that makes one essence... of EB... and that would take week's to implement.. like - we don't want elephants to be built in Gaul? No? Well then we have to keep '' and resources '' for some units and maybe not for some..

Still , you do understand that if Alexandros went to Germania, he would need like 40-60 years to make local population fight in Macedonian way (like phalanx) for Makedon, unless there are Military settlers

Now.. Militery Settler's could be a solution to that - so We can make that that building also gives option's of training phalanx .. But what about, Celt's in Athenai?? The could not use their naked warriors in Athenai?? No way that that kind of barb population would live the barb way in Athen's and then produce barb warior's. It is more likely that civilised faction's would use their factional troops even in Gaul, but Gaul would not do the same in Greece - becasue they would surrely come through one renaissance and become more Greek that Gaul..

Even Greek's were once barrbarian's.. unitl they came to meat civilisation of Crete and Thera

What would you do?

[Redmeth]

If they conquered Athens the Celts would probably not use Naked Fanatics nor would they have fought in a phalanx in time a sort of Massilian Hoplite would have probably developed but that's fantasy and even if you could argue it's a probable what-if unit the amount of combinations is too large to go down that road. IMO the MIC system in place now does a very good job, if you as the Celts want to conquer the steppes do it but don't expect to be able to train your troops there...

And as royal barracks taking 40-50 turns to build... your really can't block a city for that long whether you're human or AI, I can understand to increase it to 20-25 turns for the royal ones but not more, to limit the AI building royal barracks like crazy everywhere limit their cash flow go down the road of the city mod and money script first. And even if they build those royal barracks it's not like they can retrain their elites everywhere only in the center of their empires...

Playing VH/VH must leave you drained and pretty frustrated take it slower... konny and Lgk seem to be disagreeing with you on some of these points and you should try to all work together and organize this better. I know how it is, you get flooded with what seem like very good ideas and you want to do a lot of things but the thing is (don't be offended) many of them have been probably already tried and proved not be as effective either by the team or by other modders...

EDIT: Phalanxes should under no circumstance be available in Germania they'd have to deforest the place to properly use them, it's not only the population it's the area, in another discussion it was pointed out the Roman Imperial Cavalry Auxilia were light because of the environment in Europe where the geography prevented the effective use of Cataphracts for example...

[Maksimus]

If they conquered Athens the Celts would probably not use Naked Fanatics nor would they have fought in a phalanx in time a sort of Massilian Hoplite would have probably developed but that's fantasy and even if you could argue it's a probable what-if unit the amount of combinations is too large to go down that road. IMO the MIC system in place now does a very good job, if you as the Celts want to conquer the steppes do it but don't expect to be able to train your troops there...

And as royal barracks taking 40-50 turns to build... your really can't block a city for that long whether you're human or AI, I can understand to increase it to 20-25 turns for the royal ones but not more, to limit the AI building royal barracks like crazy everywhere limit their cash flow go down the road of the city mod and money script first. And even if they build those royal barracks it's not like they can retrain their elites everywhere only in the center of their empires...

Playing VH/VH must leave you drained and pretty frustrated take it slower... konny and Lgk seem to be disagreeing with you on some of these points and you should try to all work together and organize this better. I know how it is, you get flooded with what seem like very good ideas and you want to do a lot of things but the thing is (don't be offended) many of them have been probably already tried and proved not be as effective either by the team or by other modders...

EDIT: Phalanxes should under no circumstance be available in Germania they'd have to deforest the place to properly use them, it's not only the population it's the area, in another discussion it was pointed out the Roman Imperial Cavalry Auxilia were light because of the environment in Europe where the geography prevented the effective use of Cataphracts for example...

You are right about the system , it's really a fantasy to know what could have happend, that is why I am for the use of EB 1 or EB 1.1 solution's in means of resources and even share system - as it is ..

We all agree that Editing the EBBS is one step forward, Konny is working on it as well as Lgk.. but it seems that I am waithing for them to upload their files here so I can see it.. Konny needs to address the remarks on EBBS that Lgk made - in terms of solution's..

And me, well I am for changes it's just that I can not stand the fact that all cities are Large or Huge untill 150bc - and that alone is to much for me.. to much in all respect's
I also belive that all capitol's should have Army barracks at the start so their factions can use unit's they really had in that time.. and then add the 20-25 turn's c_bonus for Royal and Army Brcs. , and that faction's should make more money in general.. The bonuses for various buildings are not that important..

One more thing, Is or can CITY MOD be a solution for this gap's?.. We can make more town's to be huge or large - all faction's capital's should be huge by definition.. What do you think?


I am waithing

[Redmeth]

Factions making more money... some maybe but as Epeiros I had all of Greece and Krete + Serdike I believe (abandoned Taras at the start to let Romans expand) and I had a million by 250 so you can do very well if you're not completely surrounded by enemies.

Access to elites at the start... you could do that capitol thing it won't influence the game much giving every capital a L4 MIC

City Mod.. didn't use it too much can't say it could help. Limiting the huge cities could be more historical but it will not solve your army problems because MICs aren't tied to city size so having huge cities by 250 is not bad for the conqueror (they ensure a lot of loot) it might weird having all those huge cities but huge is relative it's a term in the game it's population over 16000...

The main problem is AI retraining and in order to cope with that you'd probably be better off with a money script that's not so generous to the AI. The balance is really hard to find going from hyperactive to stagnating will make you go . And stagnating is worse than hyperactive IMO.

Human players using steppe factions will probably be in for a crazy ride but I believe playing a Greek or Roman faction on M diff battles and bringing 2 stacks at least for invasion, striking hard and reinforcing with mercs etc will probably be enough to topple even a powerful AS or Ptolies, even if they're retraining if not go raiding take out their recruitment centers in the empire's heart, raze their barracks and the rest of the buildings and they will take a lot of time to regroup.

[Maksimus]

Factions making more money... some maybe but as Epeiros I had all of Greece and Krete + Serdike I believe (abandoned Taras at the start to let Romans expand) and I had a million by 250 so you can do very well if you're not completely surrounded by enemies.

Access to elites at the start... you could do that capitol thing it won't influence the game much giving every capital a L4 MIC

City Mod.. didn't use it too much can't say it could help. Limiting the huge cities could be more historical but it will not solve your army problems because MICs aren't tied to city size so having huge cities by 250 is not bad for the conqueror (they ensure a lot of loot) it might weird having all those huge cities but huge is relative it's a term in the game it's population over 16000...

The main problem is AI retraining and in order to cope with that you'd probably be better off with a money script that's not so generous to the AI. The balance is really hard to find going from hyperactive to stagnating will make you go . And stagnating is worse than hyperactive IMO.

Human players using steppe factions will probably be in for a crazy ride but I believe playing a Greek or Roman faction on M diff battles and bringing 2 stacks at least for invasion, striking hard and reinforcing with mercs etc will probably be enough to topple even a powerful AS or Ptolies, even if they're retraining if not go raiding take out their recruitment centers in the empire's heart, raze their barracks and the rest of the buildings and they will take a lot of time to regroup.

I was thinking of adding the Army/Royal barrack's hidden resource.. and expanding the City mod option's to more huge and more large town's to be enabled... Also, all faction's Capitol's should have an option enabled to to run Huge or Royal/Army barrack's..

I agree about ''striking hard'' strategy it's just you have to be mean to do that

[konny]

You are searching for solutions of problems that do not exist. In EB you do not need high experinced Agema Phalanx and artillery to win against Lugoae, Gaeroas and the like half naked savages. When I go for Segesta in all my many Roman campaigns my army is composed of inexperinced Camillans, supported by some Greek allies from Taras (Hoplites and Peltasts); and I usually win this battle without serious problems. And that's ok, because my lads are better armoured and armed than this Celtic mob.

But when you insist in playing on VH/VH, everything is seriously messed up, beginning with the overaggressive behaviour of the AI (did you know that they get a hardcoded 10,000 mne bonus every turn on top of everything that the script is granting them?) and ending with barbarian levy spearmen that cut your professional Greeks to pieces.

So, it's quite easy: change the settings back to default (M/M), play some campaigns and after that decide if there is a misbalance in EB or if there is not. As long as you use some houserules to not exploit the AI stupidity (both on the strategical and on the tactical screen), you'll should come up with the sollution that EB itself is well balanced.

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BTW, you have again nearly no medium infantry in your amry.