Roman battle tactics within a city...

[Ketchup]

Hi, I'm just wondering if when the Romans fought a siege (like the ones in EB) did they stick with sending the raw recruits (hastatit) in first (as they did in open battle) or did they try to punch their way through with the veterans (principes and triarii). Personally I would do the latter, but I'm trying to play historically for once so I would like your views!

Also, I started a new Roman campagin and I am only making about 3000-4000 a turn and with one individual unit costing around the 1500 mark or more I think this is abit disproportianate. Is this right or have I got a problem?

Cheers for any answers!

P.S this my first post so I thought I'd say what an amazing mod this is and wish you all the best for EB 2 if it isn't dead already

[konny]

Also, I started a new Roman campagin and I am only making about 3000-4000 a turn and with one individual unit costing around the 1500 mark or more I think this is abit disproportianate. Is this right or have I got a problem?

Did you disband your navy? If not, that is your problem.

[antisocialmunky]

Also, I started a new Roman campagin and I am only making about 3000-4000 a turn and with one individual unit costing around the 1500 mark or more I think this is abit disproportianate. Is this right or have I got a problem?

That's EB for ya, atleast the Romans actually aren't deficit spending on the first turn, just go play the KH if you want to see that.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Ketchup
Hi, I'm just wondering if when the Romans fought a siege (like the ones in EB) did they stick with sending the raw recruits (hastatit) in first (as they did in open battle) or did they try to punch their way through with the veterans (principes and triarii). Personally I would do the latter, but I'm trying to play historically for once so I would like your views!

Also, I started a new Roman campagin and I am only making about 3000-4000 a turn and with one individual unit costing around the 1500 mark or more I think this is abit disproportianate. Is this right or have I got a problem?

Cheers for any answers!

P.S this my first post so I thought I'd say what an amazing mod this is and wish you all the best for EB 2 if it isn't dead already

I'd be quite happy making 3000-4000 in the early stages. And, why would EB2 be dead, have you looked in the forum?

[Bellum]

I don't think RTW depicts sieges very well anyway, do they? From my experience I actually have a harder time taking those paper thin palisades than stone walls sometimes. Generally, unless I've got a huge advantage, I usually sit it out and wait for the city to sally or surrender. Is that not what usually happened?

[Centurion Crastinus]

With Jerusalem, Vespasian and Titus tried hard as hell to take the city. Every time the Romans built siegeworks, the Jewish defenders would either sap them or burn them down.

[cmacq]

A seige is not really the same as an assault on a fortified position

[iceman7291]

Can someone please get back to the task at hand though cause I too have been scratching my head at this and feel it necessary to learn about it.

So, with what men and in what order(if at all) do the Romans assault a city with?

P.S. This is mainly a question for the Camillan/Polybian era because we all know that the other reforms only have one type of infantry and its obvious with what to attack a city then.

[Shifty_GMH]

I'm no expert, but I would guess they lead with the allied troops first. Followed by Hastati, then Principes, and finally Triarii.

[Long lost Caesar]

yeah i reckon shifty hit the nail on the head there: theyd probably send in allied troops, since they were worth less in the commanders eyes. after that i suppose theyd resort to their own infantry. were cavalry used to break defenders will like on an open battlefield? i realise it seems stupid, but id be scared shitless if i saw a horseman charging down the narrow road towards me.

[TWFanatic]

I find Rome just about THE best faction to assault wooden walls with. Typically, this is my battle plan:

note - have fire at will on at all times, and general behind his men "cheering them on" the entire time.

1. Send long range missile troops (archers/slingers/artillery if you've got it) forward first. Target the enemy missile troops. The AI will usually pull back out of range, or dance around within range taking heavy casualties and getting tired.

2. Now that the gateway has been mostly cleared of enemy troops, send the javelinmen (Leves, Velites) forward. Don't spread out too far or the little towers will fire on you, remember. Fire on anyone who comes near - keeping the AI away from the walls.

3. Send hastati to the walls, with principes standing just out of enemy range, in reserve. They're turn comes next. The hastati will launch pila on anyone who comes in range. When they run out, send the principes to the walls and pull the hastati back. Rinse and repeat. If you have Samnites or other allied infantry, send them in next. The point is to use as many of your missiles as possible on the enemy before you even engage. Sometimes, you'll decimate half the enemy army before even making contact.

4. The gateway should now be completely cleared of enemies, probably for a hundred yards at least. You can send the hastati in. Wear the enemy down on the hastati before sending the principes in (though usually the AI will be exhausted by now from running in circles under missile fire, and the hastati can do the job just fine). If they have lots of cavalry, you may want to send triarii in. WHILE this melee is going on, send some cavalry in through another gate (have a ram ready at another gate, pushed by triarii since they wont have missiles and wont be involved in "clearing the gate" by your main attack point). You can head toward the big melee by the main gate and hit the enemy in the rear with the cavalry, or seize the town square if it isn't heavily defended.

Hope that helps.

[konny]

As long as you have enough missle units it is always easy to take towns with wooden walls.

With the Romans I usually assault with a reverted Mainpular Ordre:

[cmacq]

Just like TWFanatic with lower level walls mass slingers at max range, and give the defenders time to guard the gate, as this solves many problems. After they take huge losses they'll back off to withdraw to near the town's center. As your slingers run out of ammo remove them far to the rear.

Next, always make three wall breaches on the same wall (ie. at a gate and immediately on either side). This will allow each assault force to support the other and in effect concentrate your fire power. At each breach, first position a triarii in close order with a principes immediately to the rear. Keep one or more hastati and/or leves in reserve at the center breach behind the triarii-principes combo. Always keep your horse on the flanks and out of the towers' missiles range. Make sure your horse always protects the slingers and watch for the defenders' horse to sally out of a side gate.

In the assault try to get the defenders to counter-attack you. First enter in the center breach to a point immediately inside the wall. Don't go any further (as you want the defenders to hang on your flanks, not out-flank you. Wait to see how the defenders react. Normally as the first unit passes the wall, the defenders will attack as quickly as they can, leaving only a small reserve. If the defenders have horse they will get to the wall first and are easily handled by the triarrii. To the rear volley the principes, hastati, and/or leves in support of the triarii. When the triarrii get tired send in the principes.

As the defenders counter-attack develops, they will expose their flanks to one or both of the other two breaches. First, if the enemy's horse is spent, bring up yours to both outside breaches to just behind the principes. As the horse arrives send in the triarri to seal the area against a possible additional horse (if the defender still have any) counter-attack from the areas outside the other two breaches. If the defenders have keep a small reserve near one or both of the outside breaches, you may have a little fight. If so, they are normally weak units. After the triarri engage, bring in your horse and run them through the defenders. This will often route them, but don't do that if their spearmen. After you control the areas either to the right, left, or both sides of the center breach, bring in the principes, line them up in good order, repeatedly volley them into the backs of the defenders attacking the center breach, then attack their exposed rears.

About this time the tired defenders will route so use your horse to mop them up. Try to get as many routed defenders before they get to the plaza, as you don't to have to fight them again. When at the town plaza use missiles until again they attack you. Then surround and slug it out. This tactic is very effective against the Gallic types and normally you can easily defeat a much larger defending force with only a small loss.

Higher level walls are another issue.

[johhny-turbo]

I don't think RTW depicts sieges very well anyway, do they? From my experience I actually have a harder time taking those paper thin palisades than stone walls sometimes. Generally, unless I've got a huge advantage, I usually sit it out and wait for the city to sally or surrender. Is that not what usually happened?

I don't know about taking them but I have sometimes have had an easier time defending one or two chokepoints behind a wooden wall then several on a stone.

[konny]

Against wooden walls I usually do not break through more than one gate (never the wall, I am not going to pay the repair afterwards). I have much more casualties when I enter the town from different directions, for example due to spies. Provided, fo course, the town is defended by more than three or four units and there are some really decent units inside.

The enemy is holding the "inner line", that means he is able to move his best forces to any of the entries while my different assault forces can't support each other. So his bodyguard cavalry might move to a gate where I only have Peltastai and cut them to pieces, while the Triarii, that might easyly deal with these horsemen, are stucked on another gate in an one sided fight with Pantodapoi.

The concentration on one point also allows for the concentration of fire before the assault, that might kill up to 1/3 of the enemy army, or force the enemy to retreat to the town's centre.

On the point of assault, I always use my best troops with the ram, with further tough fighters following. For example, with the Sweboz I give the ram to the general and have the other family members with their bodyguards standing behind him (that's a question of honor, too). With the Romans I always chose the largest and most seasoned unit of Triarii for that job. With the other Triarii following, followed by Hoplites (if part of the army).

Javelin throwing units, including Principes and Hastati, are placed left and right of the gate to shower enemy counter-attacks. Cavalry usually has no business inside a town, if it is not a very large town with room for manouvers and the enemy has a lot of horsemen himself. Otherwise the horsemen just watch the show and the General only enters the town through the breached gate for roleplaying reasons.


When the fight comes to the town's center I often give controll to the units there to the AI, because it is much better able to micromanage this chaos than me, especially switching between missle and melee combat for units like Hastati. I do not encircle the centre at once but try to push the defenders from the "stage". When that happens the battle is soon over, sometimes with 100 or more defenders still alive. Only if I am not able to do so, I pocket the defenders.

[Ketchup]

Bit off topic but I don't want to start a new thread: How come EB units are so expensive now 1500 for one unit because they used to eb much less in earlier versions 0.8 especially.

[ross1025]

Just like TWFanatic with lower level walls mass slingers at max range, and give the defenders time to guard the gate, as this solves many problems. After they take huge losses they'll back off to withdraw to near the town's center. As your slingers run out of ammo remove them far to the rear.

.....

still some query,if the defenders also have lots troops and placed them behinde the whole front wall where u gonna breach in,which means u have to fight them in each breach,what shall i do then?

pls dont teach me use roman slingers to drive the enemy back as the barbarians usually has little amor so slingers's "ap" attribute seems not very effective.but besides "ap",the roman slingers misstle attack is only 1. what can they do?




anyway, could anyone here tell me how to deal with higher level wall? i'm just beginner and want to learn more. thx in advance.

[TWFanatic]

Against wooden walls I usually do not break through more than one gate (never the wall, I am not going to pay the repair afterwards). I have much more casualties when I enter the town from different directions, for example due to spies. Provided, fo course, the town is defended by more than three or four units and there are some really decent units inside.

I agree to a degree...however I often like to send cavalry in via another rout to hit the enemy engaged with my infantry in the "main fight" in the back.

[ross1025]

Bit off topic but I don't want to start a new thread: How come EB units are so expensive now 1500 for one unit because they used to eb much less in earlier versions 0.8 especially.

i havent played former version of EB but i do think the army upkeep in 1.0 is really appropriately.

take my romani as an example,at first i'm on the edge of bankrupt but now after taking more than 20 settlements(including most carthage lands) my economy still not easy,although i only maitained 2 mainforce(about 12 principles with some hastai/triaii each),and i have few navals at all. every turn i only got about 8000 to develop my 20+ towns(which is really not enough for buildings).

i'm pleased with this situation cause if in the RTW, when i have more than 20 towns, i can buy anything and use them to sweep over the world, and that's the time when i turn to a new campaign. but in EB, i found it just the beginning of my conquer

[konny]

spls dont teach me use roman slingers to drive the enemy back as the barbarians usually has little amor so slingers's "ap" attribute seems not very effective.but besides "ap",the roman slingers misstle attack is only 1.

Have you tried it? Even 1 can be a lot when you have more than one unit and the enemy is not shooting back. On the other hand, when you use your slingers always that way they will soon enough have a silver chevron or two and become most lethal.

You can also recruite archers in Taras (you should conquer the South before you go for the Celts).

[cmacq]

Have you tried it? Even 1 can be a lot when you have more than one unit and the enemy is not shooting back. On the other hand, when you use your slingers always that way they will soon enough have a silver chevron or two and become most lethal.

You can also recruite archers in Taras (you should conquer the South before you go for the Celts).

very right, slinger appear even more effective when they volley into the rear of an enemy formation. that just doesn't sound right, but its true.

[Ketchup]

Why doesn't it sound right? I remember seeing somewhere that when attacking with missiles form the front or shield side it did less damage because a shield gives double protection against missilies than armour and because the only thing protecting trrops from behind is armour, slingers are pretty good there! :0

[cmacq]

Why doesn't it sound right? I remember seeing somewhere that when attacking with missiles form the front or shield side it did less damage because a shield gives double protection against missilies than armour and because the only thing protecting trrops from behind is armour, slingers are pretty good there! :0

you're right, i was wrong...

[Pharnakes]

Your the only one interpreting it that way....

A dirty joke is only as sick as the mind of the person listening to it....

[cmacq]

...as charged, for i'm but a simple beast, at best.

[Spvrrina Vestricivs]

I don't know whether this tactic will work in EB or not as I've yet to play with any artillery. Anyway, here goes.

When taking an enemy settlement with wooden walls I'd have 1 or 2 ballistae and 3 cohorts of archers in the army. During the siege stage I'd build 2 rams.

I'd first get the ballistae to fire at the gate, breaking it down. Then take aim at the 2 nearest towers either side of the gate and remove them. Then target any remaining enemy troops within range.

Next I moved my archers into range (this would be changed to slingers in EB) and open up on anything available while my infantry with the rams approached the walls either side of the gate, now free from getting incoming from the destroyed towers.

Once the archers run out of arrows, pull them back out of the way and advance with my most experienced troops to take and hold the gate while the others head for the other 2 breaches.

Eventually the enemy routs, but I've got my men on defend area, so they don't give chase. I then formed a line of units that still had pila with orders to fire at will and defend area, preferably fresh units to give the others a rest, and waited for the inevitable counter-attack.

Then leap-frog the refreshed units to the front and advance on the center to mop up whatever is left.

As I say, I've not had the chance to try this out in EB yet, as I've not had access to any artillery units, so feel free to refine where and as necessary.

[ross1025]

Have you tried it? Even 1 can be a lot when you have more than one unit and the enemy is not shooting back. On the other hand, when you use your slingers always that way they will soon enough have a silver chevron or two and become most lethal.

You can also recruite archers in Taras (you should conquer the South before you go for the Celts).

yeah i found it really works! thanks man~!

besides,could anyone tell me more about a stone wall assault?
i usually prefer the ladders rather than sap or seige towers.because i found the seige tower moves really slow and take lots casualty from missile attack before they could climb on the wall.

as to sap,which seems only destroy the wall but not the missile tower,that means i have to fight the enemy companied by the missiles from the tower all the time and could do nothing about it

so i wanna learn more about how you guys attacks an stone wall to help me command better. thanks in advance.

[iceman7291]

For some reason this discussion keeps getting more and more off topic. People if you want to talk about all these other things that please start new threads. We still do not have an answer of how exactly the Romans assaulted a city during the early reforms. Can some one please get a historical source and find out for us, and also post it if possible.

[cmacq]

Its simple,
early on, a city would typically make a deal with the romans. later on the romans would starve out the defenders, build ramps to get over the walls, or under-mine the walls. very few cities ever lasted a seige or more than a several months. in fact by the gallic war period a seige may have only last a week or two.

please read

IULIUS CAESAR DE BELLO GALLICO

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've begun moving my armies along with a small reserve, and I use forts extensively to protect them while the main army is doing something else. This way, I can change the stack composition slightly when I assault cities. Since I have more than the main stack of troops near the city, it also doesn't feel as much like exploiting when I use missile troops to kill plenty of enemies around the gates.