Out of character thread XVI

[Privateerkev]

OK is in the states, but he has graveyard shift at work.

Zim is west coast. GH, OK, and TC are east coast. I'm Chicagoland.

EF is in England like Econ.

Others have been mentioned already.

[Zim]

OK is in the states, but he has graveyard shift at work.

Zim is west coast. GH, OK, and TC are east coast. I'm Chicagoland.

EF is in England like Econ.

Others have been mentioned already.

deguerra's in Australia, but is not an Aussie. I think Factionheir lives in the UK as well, but I'm not sure.

We're very international in a mostly English-speaking country sort of way.

[Privateerkev]

We're very international in a mostly English-speaking country sort of way.

Seeing as we mostly reside in England or English speaking former colonies, I am not too surprised that we speak English.

*edit*

I should say Britain since colonizing mainly done in the areas were talking about after the Act of Union...

[Zim]

Seeing as we mostly reside in England or English speaking former colonies, I am not too surprised that we speak English.

You wouldn't say that if you lived in Texas like I used to.

[gibsonsg91921]

haha well me and PK live in chicagoland so we know exactly what you're talking about bud. no offense, im all for immigration.

[Privateerkev]

Well, Texas was eventually taken over by colonists that came from a country that used to be colonized by Britain.

Hence... English as one of the major languages in Texas.

[Zim]

haha well me and PK live in chicagoland so we know exactly what you're talking about bud. no offense, im all for immigration.

Me, too. Living in Texas is certainly a good way to learn Spanish if nothing else.

I wasn't sure if Chicago was like that as well. A couple of people from Mexico I used to work with had some family there, but said they hated the weather. Too cold.

[Privateerkev]

Me, too. Living in Texas is certainly a good way to learn Spanish if nothing else.

I wasn't sure if Chicago was like that as well. A couple of people from Mexico I used to work with had some family there, but said they hated the weather. Too cold.

Chicagoland has an absolutely massive Latino population in some parts of the city and in some of the suburbs. I went to a Highschool next to Ohare Airport and it was over half Latino because housing is more affordable where it is loud from the planes.

As for immigration, my stance is a tad different from a lot of people. I advocate for the dissolution of the nation-state as a political structure so immigration becomes kind of moot if that ever gets realized. But until that happens, I'm up for taking care of whoever happens to make it here. If your here, your part of the system and society so you should benefit from everything that means.

[Stuperman]

Well, I'm in, as Bill O'Rielly would call it, Northern Canukistan, and close enough to Quebec to regret not paying more attention in French Class.

@Zim, no offence but your former workmate's family are wussies, It's gonna be -27 tonight, and I love it

[Privateerkev]

Another former British colony...

[Zim]

As for immigration, my stance is a tad different from a lot of people. I advocate for the dissolution of the nation-state as a political structure so immigration becomes kind of moot if that ever gets realized. But until that happens, I'm up for taking care of whoever happens to make it here. If your here, your part of the system and society so you should benefit from everything that means.

I'm not sure the nation-state has outlived it usefulness yet, but the part in bold is pretty much the same as my feelings about immigration. I think if people want to come here to work we should make it easier for them to become legal. Aside from it being the moral thing to do, from a national security viewpoint it would be safer if we could keep better track of everyone (and thus be able to find the few people who really are dangerous) and it might make it harder for businesses to get away with paying people half of minimum wage just because they're undocumented and can't do anything about it.

Stuperman I know, but hey, one of them hadn't seen snow until it snowed at work one night (we get about one day of snow a year in Texas ), so I guess they can be forgiven.

[Privateerkev]

I'm not sure the nation-state has outlived it usefulness yet, but the part in bold is pretty much the same as my feelings about immigration. I think if people want to come here to work we should make it easier for them to become legal. Aside from it being the moral thing to do, from a national security viewpoint it would be safer if we could keep better track of everyone (and thus be able to find the few people who really are dangerous) and it might make it harder for businesses to get away with paying people half of minimum wage just because they're undocumented and can't do anything about it.

I'm quite convinced that the nation-state is a horrible way to form governing bodies and will cause much death and suffering in the future. Drawing lines around geographical spaces and then making special rules for some people in those lines leads to a lot of trouble in my opinion.

As for immigration, it has to do with the fact that those people are... people. I don't care if you've lived here 100 years or 30 minutes. Once your in the social and cultural structure, I have an ability to help you through my tax money and civil instruments, like voting. So then I will do so. I would prefer if I could extend this to everyone on the planet but one thing at a time.

[Zim]

PK,
Well, with the growing importance of regional political entities over national ones, as well as truly global ones (like the U.N. or World Bank) it might only be a matter of time. Although growing movements for the political independence of small ethnic minorities in places like the European Union might be signs of a countervailing trend. I think any process that results in the end of the idea of the nation-state will take a very long time, with lots of hiccups and setbacks along the way.

In the meantime, I don't think they're all evil. Pre-state societies have rates of death by violence far higher than the most warlike nation states in history. If nothing else, nation-states have caused people to look beyond terms of their own family or tribe, and it's in such entities that truly developed theories of social justice have arisen. Now it's just a matter of consolidating them all into one, which might be the difficult part.

My views on immigration seem to be similiar to yours.

[Privateerkev]

I'm not advocating going back to feudalism. I just rather move towards a single global spanning government where todays nations are more like states in the US.

And I have no problem equating hyper-nationalism with "evil". World War One is but one example of the dark side of the nation-state.

The idea that I'm supposed to think and feel something different about someone just because they are on the other side of an arbitrarily drawn line, is completely anathema to everything I believe in.

[Zim]

So, to keep from being banned for hijacking the thread...

How about those rebels? What would the odds be for betting on Hummel beating out the Loyalists in the Civil War? 2:3, 1:2?

[Privateerkev]

Go back through the old OOC threads and you'll see us posting all sorts of goofy non-KotR related things.

I figure this thread is for community building. While spam is not allowed, general OOC conversation is. I could go and gab in the Frontroom or Backroom but I specifically like gabbing with you guys because we play together, and hence, I know you guys better than the other people on the board.

[Zim]

I'm not advocating going back to feudalism. I just rather move towards a single global spanning government where todays nations are more like states in the US.

And I have no problem equating hyper-nationalism with "evil". World War One is but one example of the dark side of the nation-state.

The idea that I'm supposed to think and feel something different about someone just because they are on the other side of an arbitrarily drawn line, is completely anathema to everything I believe in.

Hyper-Nationalism certainly has led to some terrible things, but something I read for a college class a long time ago stuck with me. Apparently the rate of death by violence in pre-state societies is dreadful, averaging about 1 in 3. Even the very worst Nation-States have never matched that. It was safer to be a German or a Jewish person in the first half of the 20th century, than to be, say, a Native American before Columbus, if your main concern is death by violence.

I read something interesting by a writer once who right up until about the beginning of the Second World War (he died before it came to a head). He was talking about nationalism, and why German nationalism at the time scared him. He said nationalism became especially dangerous when it moved from being proud of your country to being proud of being from your country(or of it's majority ethnicity, or whatever).

In the former you're presumably judging your country by some outside standard, and rightly or wrongly, find it measure's up well. In the latter he thought you would fall into the trap of thinking something is right or wrong depending on whether it fell in line with what your country was doing.

i.e. In the first case someone might be proud that the U.S. fought against Germany in the first World War, in the second someone might say that the Iraqi War is right because America is in it.

I thought it was pretty interesting, considering what actually happened regarding German nationalism after the
fellow died.

Edit: I know you're not arguing for a return to tribalism, PK, but after finding out we essentially agree I wanted to ramble a bit.

[Zim]

Go back through the old OOC threads and you'll see us posting all sorts of goofy non-KotR related things.

I figure this thread is for community building. While spam is not allowed, general OOC conversation is. I could go and gab in the Frontroom or Backroom but I specifically like gabbing with you guys because we play together, and hence, I know you guys better than the other people on the board.

It's also very nice to be able to say something political on a forum without initiating either a flame war or a bunch of mindless yes-man responses.

[Privateerkev]

Hyper-Nationalism certainly has led to some terrible things, but something I read for a college class a long time ago stuck with me. Apparently the rate of death by violence in pre-state societies is dreadful, averaging about 1 in 3. Even the very worst Nation-States have never matched that. It was safer to be a German or a Jewish person in the first half of the 20th century, than to be, say, a Native American before Columbus, if your main concern is death by violence.

Which is why I am not advocating going back to pre-state societies.

(I thought I said that earlier...)



Though I might take issue with your implication that post-Columbus America was not deadly. Millions of indigenous people died from disease, overwork, and war as a direct result of European intervention.

Also my Polish step-grandfather has a thing or two to say about how deadly it was in in the first half of the 20th century since he spent all of World War 2 in Auschwitz as slave labor.

So, my point is, pre-state societies and nation-states were/are both deadly. I would prefer to have a government based on neither. I rather move forward and create something else that takes care of the greatest amount of people possible. And I know we're capable of it which makes me stubborn because I know we can do better than what we've done and what we have now.

[Ramses II CP]

Hummel pretty dramatically increased his odds by catching the loyalists with their general away. If he can wipe out, or even badly damage, the siege army and then recruit to spend his wealth then I'd put the odds at 1:1.

On the political front, just let me say that as much as I dislike the idea of nations, I find the notion of a world government utterly abhorrent. Politics is like any other industry, it's primary goal and purpose for existence is to continue itself. The larger you let it get, and the longer it exists continuously, the more of a people's resources it will mindlessly consume in bureaucracy and paper shifting. To make a government smaller you have to, literally, destroy it. Anything else just adds to it as you pile layers on layers struggling to control the corruption and waste.

From time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed by the blood of patriots. (Paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson because I'm too lazy to look it up)

The more power you give someone the more power their successor will demand until you're left with none. This is the inevitable course of history, reversed only when outrage finally exceeds tolerance. If you're lucky, and most of us are, you'll live near the apex of a society and skate through without ever going hungry or having to worry too much about the theives at the top.

I hope my daughter is that lucky, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Privateerkev]

Studying history for a living, the idea that anything is "inevitable" gives me pause.

[Zim]

I know, I just felt like rambling a bit.

I was just going by the numbers. A 33% chance of dying by violence is much worse than that experiences by any society based on nation states. Arguing against the pain of individuals would both accomplish little and make me feel like a jerk.

Despite the terrible injustices inflicted by the Spanish on the natives of central America (most under some kind of government that would have evolved into a nation state), I've always been taught that disease was a far greater culprit in the horrendous death rates than even the tendency for the Spanish to work slaves to death. A lot of the stories about the Spanish were propaganda spread by France and England, that we're only now learning is false.

The only thing that scares me about a worldwide nation-state is the kind of worry Ramses expressed.

Anyway, I'm off to church now, so no more debating for me. Feel free to refute my pathetic arguments. Oh, and Doug is playing his Teutonic save tonight, so we might have another of those "three turns in a few hours"
moments.

Which is why I am not advocating going back to pre-state societies.

(I thought I said that earlier...)



Though I might take issue with your implication that post-Columbus America was not deadly. Millions of indigenous people died from disease, overwork, and war as a direct result of European intervention.

Also my Polish step-grandfather has a thing or two to say about how deadly it was in in the first half of the 20th century since he spent all of World War 2 in Auschwitz as slave labor.

So, my point is, pre-state societies and nation-states were/are both deadly. I would prefer to have a government based on neither. I rather move forward and create something else that takes care of the greatest amount of people possible. And I know we're capable of it which makes me stubborn because I know we can do better than what we've done and what we have now.

[Zim]

Studying history for a living, the idea that anything is "inevitable" gives me pause.

Studying politics for a living, the idea that any world state would be more concerned for the welfare of its people, and less with accruing power to itself, than every other state in history, gives me pause.

[Ramses II CP]

Then you're looking at it too closely. (That really is supposed to be funny rather than me pretending to be an expert. I'm a duffer.)

Take the long view and ask yourself where civilization has existed continuously for a significant, from the long view, quantity of time without failing due to corruption or simple ineffectiveness or refreshing itself via rebellion. By the long view, I mean the long view of human existence and future potential. Our forms of power are ephemeral by their very nature, and better for it, but when they unravel... Cry Havoc and all that. I dread to think what the first failure of a world government will be like for it's people.

[Privateerkev]

Despite the terrible injustices inflicted by the Spanish on the natives of central America (most under some kind of government that would have evolved into a nation state), I've always been taught that disease was a far greater culprit in the horrendous death rates than even the tendency for the Spanish to work slaves to death. A lot of the stories about the Spanish were propaganda spread by France and England, that we're only now learning is false.

1.) Your assuming that indigenous societies would just "naturally" find their way into becoming a nation-state. Nations were not inevitable but created and then supported by a mythology that made them seem inevitable.

2.) Having done no small amount of reading about the Spanish Empire, I can tell you there is overwhelming historical evidence that many of those stories are true. But France and Britain were by no means innocent...

3.) Disease came about partly because some European settlers deliberately gave blankets from their smallpox wards to native tribes as "gifts". But even though some of it was by accident, it still happened because people from one area of the world, sailed to another area of the world and insisted on conquering and converting people that were doing quite fine on their own.

[gibsonsg91921]

PK, ur ideas are radical and idealist. I DIG EM! lol

but exactly. under these circumstances i dont care who comes in as long as theyre paying as much of their share of taxes as me (or in my case, my mom and dad)

[Privateerkev]

PK, ur ideas are radical and idealist. I DIG EM! lol

Thanks!

Though I am sad my ideas are considered radical... To me their like breathing air.

[deguerra]

am at work, so ill keep it brief. to add to your nationalism/nationstate debate:

i have to say i quite like where germany is at the moment. ever since ww2, germany has been a distnictly un-patriotic country, as even the slightest show of patriotism was percevied (or cried down) as far-right nationalism.

we do not learn our national anthem, we do not hoist our flags at many public buildings and are generally not taught to be proud of our country.

i have two insights on this:

1. patriotism is somewhat inevitable (yes, i used it because of previous discussion :P). as german patriotism was frowned upon, people instead showed patriotism for their states (bavaria, hamburg etc.) for their dialects or for their municipal regions. instead of having national festivals, we had smaller ones. the idea of becoming utterly unpatriotic seems not to work.

2. patriotism can be good. i was never proud of germany in my life until i left it. i think it had do to with the combination of seeing how other countries WERE patriotic and viewing germany from a distance for the first time, but i slowly began to not only accept but be happy with my heritage. to me now, being german is about reminding the world of what ultra-nationalism can lead to, and ironically, being proud of that role, perhaps i am guilty of a little nationalism.

i still think many countries go to far. the USA is always a prime example, but really many other countries are not that different. to be honest, I find that most every country's citizens have a lot to be proud of, and should be. it is only when it leads to degrading other countries...be it officially, in stereotypes or just by idiots on internet forums ( ) that I sometimes sit back and worry at the destination this world is heading to.

its good to see such open people as on this forum, and indeed i find myself more conservative than some of you. but that is for another time.

brief...hah

deguerra

[Privateerkev]

am at work, so ill keep it brief. to add to your nationalism/nationstate debate:

i have to say i quite like where germany is at the moment. ever since ww2, germany has been a distnictly un-patriotic country, as even the slightest show of patriotism was percevied (or cried down) as far-right nationalism.

we do not learn our national anthem, we do not hoist our flags at many public buildings and are generally not taught to be proud of our country.

i have two insights on this:

1. patriotism is somewhat inevitable (yes, i used it because of previous discussion :P). as german patriotism was frowned upon, people instead showed patriotism for their states (bavaria, hamburg etc.) for their dialects or for their municipal regions. instead of having national festivals, we had smaller ones. the idea of becoming utterly unpatriotic seems not to work.

2. patriotism can be good. i was never proud of germany in my life until i left it. i think it had do to with the combination of seeing how other countries WERE patriotic and viewing germany from a distance for the first time, but i slowly began to not only accept but be happy with my heritage. to me now, being german is about reminding the world of what ultra-nationalism can lead to, and ironically, being proud of that role, perhaps i am guilty of a little nationalism.

i still think many countries go to far. the USA is always a prime example, but really many other countries are not that different. to be honest, I find that most every country's citizens have a lot to be proud of, and should be. it is only when it leads to degrading other countries...be it officially, in stereotypes or just by idiots on internet forums ( ) that I sometimes sit back and worry at the destination this world is heading to.

its good to see such open people as on this forum, and indeed i find myself more conservative than some of you. but that is for another time.

brief...hah

deguerra

I found it interesting to hear your point of view with regards to being German. Germany has indeed been discouraged from being "nationalistic" which is ironic because they didn't exactly invent genocide. Genocide has been perpetrated by many countries including my own. But so many people treat the holocaust as somehow "worse" than your "run of the mill" genocide. So the idea that German nationalism is somehow more dangerous than other nationalisms has always bugged me.

And deguerra, I have found that many people find themselves more conservative than me. I have learned to just roll with it.

[gibsonsg91921]

yeah, if your ideas were accepted by the conservatives of the world, they would be fabulous. if people were perfect, communism would be great. unfortunately, people aren't perfect. call it adam and eve, call it ambition, call it whatever the @#$% you want, but people ain't perfect.