The Suren clan of Pahlava

[Malik of Sindh]

I am playing a pahlavan campaing right now.I have a few FMs with Suren ethnicity and I am very interested in this clans history.If anyone knows any good sites or books on them please tell me.I really hope The Persian Cataphract will reply to this thread,his endless knowledge about Iranian history will really help me.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Apart from the fact that there are Zoroastrian groups in today's Iran claiming descent from them, while fostering somewhat different traditions and practices, while maintaining a great deal of treasures, and more importantly to the scholars, a much debated treasure of lost literature, there really isn't a lot to read about from Prof. Bivar's treatise on Gondophares, apart from the writings of contemporary Graeco-Roman authors (E.g. Plutarch) on the subject. We have a set of clan badges, coat-of-arms and insignia, and we know the clan had certain possessions along the Eastern frontier; Undoubtly the peaks of this enigmatic caste of nobility were during the age of "Surena's" campaigns against Mithradates III and the great victory and capturing of Roman standards at Carrhae. But also, if Bivar's (And ultimately Ernst Herzfeld) interpretation is correct, the conquests of Gondophares and the supplaunting of the "Sakavaraka", in effect as far as the Indian metropolis Mathura, certainly immortalized the "Pahlavas" in the writings of contemporary Indian chroniclers; It may in effect later have contributed to the Pallava colonian state in Dravidia, however that remains a matter of interpretation.

There are supposedly unpublished "Sistan-cycles" providing legends and creative deviations of historiography which has lead to many of these conclusions. You may want to refer to Prof. Bivar's entry in Encyclopaedia Iranica:

http://www.iranica.com/articles/v11f2/v11f2021.html

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic.../v5f1a001.html

[Malik of Sindh]

Thanks TPC

[Sarkiss]

Suren is an Armenian name pretty popular even nowadays. guess it derives from Persian like Tigran does?

[cmacq]

endless knowledge about Iranian

right, no end to it as i bit my tongue.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Suren is an Armenian name pretty popular even nowadays. guess it derives from Persian like Tigran does?

Correct; Even though Armenian is a branch separate from the Iranian languages, even words such as "Aznvakan" (*winks to Sarkiss*) are derived from the Iranian cognate of "Aznavar" which means "noble". Other terms and phrases include "Aspet", "Nizak", "Zrahakir", "Sparapet", "Marzpan", "Marz", "Ambar", "Vajarakan", "Baghnikner", "Metz", and "Zoratun" are all the result of rather steady cultural exchanges.

[Sarkiss]

Correct; Even though Armenian is a branch separate from the Iranian languages, even words such as "Aznvakan" (*winks to Sarkiss*) are derived from the Iranian cognate of "Aznavar" which means "noble". Other terms and phrases include "Aspet", "Nizak", "Zrahakir", "Sparapet", "Marzpan", "Marz", "Ambar", "Vajarakan", "Baghnikner", "Metz", and "Zoratun" are all the result of rather steady cultural exchanges.

Persian influece on Armenia is pretty big and diverse: from ancient relgious believes and rituals, royal dinasties to (as i have just found out, thanks TPC) even modern Armenian names. btw, "Ambar" is in use in Russian too. what does it originaly mean in Persian?

[The Persian Cataphract]

"Anbar" means "storage" in its most general form, and may be used as a container-suffix. "Water reservoir" thus becomes "Ab-Anbar". It is derived from Bar/Burdar which means "Carrier"; Another phrase used for something which is to contain or carry something, would be the term for "pit/well", which is "Chah" (My keymapping is messed up for the moment, so I'm disabled from diacritic symbols per dead-key).

[artavazd]

Persian influece on Armenia is pretty big and diverse: from ancient relgious believes and rituals, royal dinasties to (as i have just found out, thanks TPC) even modern Armenian names. btw, "Ambar" is in use in Russian too. what does it originaly mean in Persian?

Yes. There was Persian influence on Armenia, but its not entirely correct to say those words were originaly Persian which were then borrowed by Armenians ( alot were borrowed especialy administrative terms). The common Indo-European root between Persians and Armenians gives us words which are both Armenian and Persian equally. For example in Armenian there are alot of words which sound similar to Germanic/English. (door= door, vot- foot, armung= elbow has connection with the word arm, vat=bad, kov=cow, amar= summer) It is the common Indo-European language and not one borrowing from the other.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Precisely. This is also why I used the word "cultural exchange" because in reality Armenian and Persian find many relative cognates, in spite of belonging to separate branches in the Indo-European root (In spite of the notion of some of these being the result of loaning). However, the perception of Armenia being a cultural "Persianate" is quite profound, but the perception of the separate Armenian cultural entity is derived from a few but otherwise very remarkable events, ranging from the Urartu roots, to the Artaxiad ascension, the approval of Christianity, and the battle of Avayrar Fields.

Some of the terms are however derived from one common point though, which is defining to Armenia's pre-Christian history; Zoroastrian/Avestan terminology. An example of this is "Zrahakir"; It is cleary a cognate to the very ancient "Zradha", as much as the Middle Persian "Zreh" is. So we must be careful to not generalize: There are some give and takes, but some of it is sprung from a common root.

[artavazd]

Precisely. This is also why I used the word "cultural exchange" because in reality Armenian and Persian find many relative cognates, in spite of belonging to separate branches in the Indo-European root (In spite of the notion of some of these being the result of loaning). However, the perception of Armenia being a cultural "Persianate" is quite profound, but the perception of the separate Armenian cultural entity is derived from a few but otherwise very remarkable events, ranging from the Urartu roots, to the Artaxiad ascension, the approval of Christianity, and the battle of Avayrar Fields.

Some of the terms are however derived from one common point though, which is defining to Armenia's pre-Christian history; Zoroastrian/Avestan terminology. An example of this is "Zrahakir"; It is cleary a cognate to the very ancient "Zradha", as much as the Middle Persian "Zreh" is. So we must be careful to not generalize: There are some give and takes, but some of it is sprung from a common root.

right on brother

[Mouzafphaerre]

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While knowledgeable friends are around, do you have any information or guess about the connection between Arabic ورد - werd and Armenian vart (at least in Western Armenian), both meaning rose? How and which way the traffic may have happened?
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[Sarkiss]

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While knowledgeable friends are around, do you have any information or guess about the connection between Arabic ورد - werd and Armenian vart (at least in Western Armenian), both meaning rose? How and which way the traffic may have happened?
.

if there has to be a connection then my guess would be from Arabic to Armenian, perhaps during Arabs invasion. i might be wrong, however. Artavazd, any ideas?

[Sarkiss]

Yes. There was Persian influence on Armenia, but its not entirely correct to say those words were originaly Persian which were then borrowed by Armenians ( alot were borrowed especialy administrative terms). The common Indo-European root between Persians and Armenians gives us words which are both Armenian and Persian equally. For example in Armenian there are alot of words which sound similar to Germanic/English. (door= door, vot- foot, armung= elbow has connection with the word arm, vat=bad, kov=cow, amar= summer) It is the common Indo-European language and not one borrowing from the other.

you're right of course

[kambiz]

do you have any information or guess about the connection between Arabic ورد - werd and Armenian vart (at least in Western Armenian), both meaning rose?

Are you sure this is Arabic???

[The Persian Cataphract]

It took me a while to figure out, but in the Gulf dialect of Arabic, Khuzestani upbringing tells me the Arabic word for flower (In general) is pronounced "war'ed". No relative phrase found in the rather Aramaic-heavy Middle Persian language, but we mat also consider the word Aramaic residue; The word appears in the quite Persian-influenced Mandaic language. If only I could get the online Aramaic dictionaries to work to cross-examine this...

[kambiz]

@TPC
Savar joon ,Werd parsi'e ha ! Masalan migan : "Felan chiz werde zaboneshe" ya "Dare werd mikhoone" . Werd Parsie.

[artavazd]

Are you sure this is Arabic???

Its not Arabic. The word Vard is indo-european. It is the root word Var which varun meaning firey as in a person full of "life"and a component of the name Vardan a Perso-Armenian name. It is very likely that it got into Arabic through Persian.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I'm sure of the Arabic. Now, I know it's an IE origin loanword. Thank you guys.

Vartan in Western Armenian. A common name amongst the Hai in these parts. Translated "with roses, rosy" etc.

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[artavazd]

You are welcome.