Celtic elite units

[NeoSpartan]

Well, my armies were like this: 4 gasaetaes, 1 general, 2 slingers. Thats all. And with these units i conquered cities with 8, 9, or 10 units garrisoned,and only 20 gasaetaes of my army getting killed. So, there was 2 armies marching to north killing casse, one armie marching to west, defeating lusotanna, 2 armies at the east killing what remained of sweboz and epeiros, and 2 on greece. From each turn, playing vh/m, i could take 2, 3 or 4 cities.

I used to end eachturn with only 6000 denarii, but was very rare to left one citie with no structures getting built. I never had a good amount of money, like 20000, or 30000, because all my money was used to recruitment and bulding. So i think its possible to upkeep many gasaetaes and conquer many cities. But anyway, ill create a new campaing VH/VH, and see if recruiting more levy or medium units will be more effective.

I agree with you that AI doesn't know how to fight gasaetae, they almost dont create missile units and use them with the porpuse of killing my naked man, and thanks forthe information Decimus Attius, i didn't know that defense skill only covers meele xD... but, anyway, thanks for the discussion guys, i realy earned good information, and i'll make more tests to take new conclusions ;D.

NONONNONONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!

IF your going on VH/VH you HAVE TO spam Gaesatae Anything less won't do trust me on that.

Anyways... whatever difficulty your playing now.. start a new campaing AND do the following:
TAKE FATIGE OFF!!!!

this will make the AI in battle much more of a challenge as it won't tire its troops. As u know tired troops have lower morale and being attacked by Gaesate drops thier morale even more so they will ROUT in an instant. Fatige Off doesn't let this happen. Nor does it let u sit back and the AI tire its troops to get to you when ur defending

Another thing u can do when you ARE NOT in VH/VH is after u kill the Arverni is to start taking some rebel settlements. The big strong garrison makes it harder in 1.0 and DON'T attack Rome until it attacks you. In my Aedui Campain Rome took unitil 250some to attack me, the Boii Gallum and Sagistanii (SP, the guys next to the Boii Gallum) held Rome back for YEARS!

[pezhetairoi]

Well, considering half-naked units like the Botroas and the Pictones only have 1 armour, I have in the interests of fairness decreased my Gaesatae and Tindanotae to 1 armour as well, but to maintain their eliteness, i have increased their skill by 1. I'm expecting they will be weakened now, but are still superior to Pictones, who are practically 1HP equivalents of the Gaesatae.

[NeoSpartan]

Botroas and pictones don't have a helmet.

Look at unit without helments, and no other type of armor you will see they have 1 armor points. (some have 2 points but I think they have a leather cap or something [Sweboz unit, forgot the name])

ps: do not confuse Botroas with Bataroas. Its easy to mix the names up, I used to all the time.

[Thaatu]

Carnutes can, yes. But I'm talking about the Drwdae, as in the Casse unit, which doesn't posess that ability and yet is more expensive than the Calawre with nearly identical stats.

My bad.


About the Gaesatae helmet armor, I think it'd be plausible to divide the helmet bonuses between armour and defence skill. Considering that a helmet, especially cheekguards, are more protective in melee, since in a swordfight the juiciest target is the head, while with javelins and arrows and such you usually aim for the chest. If the Gaesatae armor was divided something like +3 armor, +3 defence skill, would that make a difference?

[pezhetairoi]

Right about the helmet, I had forgotten about that. I'll nerf that one skill and add 2 back for the helmet. Yups.

[blank]

My bad.


About the Gaesatae helmet armor, I think it'd be plausible to divide the helmet bonuses between armour and defence skill. Considering that a helmet, especially cheekguards, are more protective in melee, since in a swordfight the juiciest target is the head, while with javelins and arrows and such you usually aim for the chest. If the Gaesatae armor was divided something like +3 armor, +3 defence skill, would that make a difference?

Happy birthday man

Here is a dancing elephant and his little band for ye:

[Thaatu]

Thanks mate, I'm a big fan of the pink elephant.

[NeoSpartan]

Right about the helmet, I had forgotten about that. I'll nerf that one skill and add 2 back for the helmet. Yups.

Pez... why don't u run a test take ur Gaesatae and have then fight another melee elite? Like Agyrastidai (sp), or some of those guys.

You will notice that Gaesatae don't tend to overwhelm them, even though they have 2 hps.

The Gaesatae's a**kicking nature is that they only take MIC IV to make (they used to be at MIC III!), but the real power is that they will rout your regular units when they are down 50-60/80. (unless u have a really good general)

[Slim_Ghost]

I use naked fanatics mainly as a fear-inducing unit. Kind off a cheap but durable alternative to elephants or chariots.

[NeoSpartan]

I use naked fanatics mainly as a fear-inducing unit. Kind off a cheap but durable alternative to elephants or chariots.

Exactly thats what makes Gaesatae powerful right there.

I remember in MP Gauis was holding my Helvetii phalanx with some cheap units, and even though they were down to 30/120 they stayed fighting. I got pissed so I moved in my Gaesate (exposing them to javelings) behind my phalanx... and the Gaesatae said "BOO!" and they all ran away

[Digby Tatham Warter]

More than one post has stated that playing on VH battle, requires armies of Elites to win. So what is the point, in that surely it's no different from playing M or H battle using more balanced armies, after all the challenge is no greater is it?

In my ignorance, the only reasoning I can come up with, is that people can have the satisfaction of saying, they play on the hardest settings possible(even though they have unrealistic numbers of Elites to be able to do so).

No criticism intended just curious.

[NeoSpartan]

naahhh VH is a "different" ball game, than M.

Its a different way to have fun.. you need to field elites, and the AI elites beat ur elites. You need to use ground advantage ALWAYS, you need to RUSH the AI so that (a) it doesn't get stronger (b) you can get $$ from sacking to keep training armies.

Its fun! Its a challenge because the AI can beat u in straight fight so u have to improvise and break all rulez of roleplaying.

VH is for people who are NOT that interested in HEAVY roleplaying, and sim-city style game.


but listen.... don't worry about all the fuzz you hear about difficulty settings and whatnot. At the end of the day... the ABILITIES of a player are shown in:

MULTIPLAYER!!!!

[Thaatu]

Does MP work in 1.0?

[NeoSpartan]

Does MP work in 1.0?

NOT exacly.

madmatg got it working (along with a few other guys) BUT factions are missing a many of their factional units. Some factions are missing more than others:
ex:
Romani are missing ALL Roman units exept velitets and other levies.
KH is missing Classical Hoplite, and copy-Pezetaroi (sp).

Its really a mess.... and it makes me wanna somebody

I am HOPING the EB team gets MP fixed by 1.1.

[Thaatu]

Is it just the MP edu that's screwed up, or is it something deeper?

[Stone and Blood]

At Multiplayer battle the player shall use two things: First:Good sense about how to uuse the money.Second: Good tatic in battle. And gasaetae would not become overpowered, or anythink like that, because we, humans, with our superior intelect, know how to use missile against gasaetae, or charging them with cavalry. So the player will find cingetos, or solduros realy usefull, with theyr big armor rating ( what doesn't hapen playing agains computer). And you could not create an army full of elites because your money would not afford it. So your army will have a good variety of units, in order to use tatics that a human could use against you, and AI cannot.
But anyway, as generals, we know that battles are realy important, but, maybe more important is the campaing, wich we can't use through Multiplayer. But it is not impossible, is it? Just a dreamer's words xD.

[Pharnakes]

I remember just beofre I left, I created a "fear stack" with pontus, that relied on the following strategy: Use cheap phlaignites to hold the line for a while, exhuasting the enemy soldiers. Use money saved to stock up on naked galatains (I know, he shame, but that was before Admetos revelaed the truth to me) and cavalry.

Then exhaust oponent with pike, wait untill there is a large mass of enemy untis clumped toghether, then charge chariots right throught the middle of the whole lot, and follow imediatley with Tindantonae. This creates optimal conditions for the tindantonae, the only inf that stand a chance against them are disciplened troops that can hold a decent line of battle, but when you have disorganised their line with pike and chariots, thats not possible.

Plus as chariots and tindantonae cause fear to foot, combined with casulaties and exhaustion, total rout was the invetiable result.


One battle I fought against a complete noob, who had onlly preatorians and camilian equites in his army, my chariots soon rounted his cav, and returned to defeat his praetorians with an overall loss of 17 percent...

I loled. prehaps I even rofled, now I come to think of it...

[runes]

i;ve never really fought chariots.

best strategy to take em down anyone?

[NeoSpartan]

I F*ing hate charriots.

I remember when Madmatg 1st deployed them... kicked my a*** REALLY bad.
(he was seleucid, I was ptolemoi)

The 2nd time.. it was a CLOSE match. But he still won.
(He was seleucid, I was Aedui)

The 3rd time... it didn't work for him..
(he was Casse, I was Seleucid)

The 4th time... he ctded, it was very close to me, but he said I won.
(he was seleucid, I was Mak)

Eventhough I am better at dealing with the Charriots I STILL hate them.

[NeoSpartan]

i;ve never really fought chariots.

best strategy to take em down anyone?

Strategy???? hell.. I can tell a few guidelines, but the strategy is going to vary in MP as a human player is very unpredicable

1-Don't let them close to ur cavarly.
2-Don't let them hit u in the rear of ur line.
3-Attack them with archers/slinger.
5-He peltats in reserve and then...
4-Send PELTATS to charge them, throwing javelings is a waste of time as they are always moving.
5-Don't send heavy infantry to them.

[antisocialmunky]

Those things are pretty chaotic. No real strategy except when you unleash them in battle to disorganize an enemy.

[Raphia]

It wasn't just Teleman which the Gaesatae did poorly at:

Same with the 'mighty legions', they failed on more than one occasion

[Frostwulf]

Same with the 'mighty legions', they failed on more than one occasion

I completely agree with you. Of course there are some differences. The Gaesatae have some really incredible stats, some deserved (frighten others) and most are not.
Now certainly the 'mighty legions' failed, but from my cursory view they were more successful then not, the same could not be said of the Gaesatae. Now if you could show me where the Gaesatae deserve their stats(sited sources) I would love to see some as I have been begging for them for quite some time now. From the written sources the Gaesatae performed poorly.

[Raphia]

I completely agree with you. Of course there are some differences. The Gaesatae have some really incredible stats, some deserved (frighten others) and most are not.
Now certainly the 'mighty legions' failed, but from my cursory view they were more successful then not, the same could not be said of the Gaesatae. Now if you could show me where the Gaesatae deserve their stats(sited sources) I would love to see some as I have been begging for them for quite some time now. From the written sources the Gaesatae performed poorly.

The sources - ask team EB about that, I am just a forum memeber. One know the frightening infantry stat should be there, it has been stated in sources that fighting nude shock up many troops. Playing the game the Gaesatae are not too hard to beat ironically the best way to defeat them is with skirmishers :p bascilly the do what the Romans did at Telamon

[pezhetairoi]

I second that. So essentially the Gaesatae do deserve their stats. It only remains to be seen whether you can use them in a setting that puts those stats to best use.

[Mykingdomforanos]

In custom battles my Elite Thracian Infantry (Rhomphaiorii?) sliced up the Gaesatae 3/3 times, (flatland, 2 exp, and 1 armour + light/heavy weapon upgrade each) and falxmen are really AP specialists whereas Gaesatae dont have much armour so they may look scary but falxmen are w1n :D

[Frostwulf]

The sources - ask team EB about that, I am just a forum memeber. One know the frightening infantry stat should be there, it has been stated in sources that fighting nude shock up many troops. Playing the game the Gaesatae are not too hard to beat ironically the best way to defeat them is with skirmishers :p bascilly the do what the Romans did at Telamon

I second that. So essentially the Gaesatae do deserve their stats. It only remains to be seen whether you can use them in a setting that puts those stats to best use.

It wasn't just Telamon they performed badly at, but also at Clastidium and Mediolanum:

until he came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near the place called Clastidium, a Gallic village which not long before had become subject to the Romans. 4 There was no time for him to give his army rest and refreshment, for the Barbarians quickly learned of his arrival, and held in contempt the infantry with him, which were few in number all told, and, being Gauls, made no account of his cavalry. For they were most excellent fighters on horseback, and were thought to be specially superior as such, and, besides, at this time they far outnumbered Marcellus. Immediately, therefore, they charged upon him with great violence and dreadful threats, thinking to overwhelm him, their king riding in front of them. 5 But Marcellus, that they might not succeed in enclosing and surrounding him and his few followers, led his troops of cavalry forward and tried to outflank them, extending his wing into a thin line, until he was not far from the enemy. And now, just as he was turning to make a charge, his horse, frightened by the ferocious aspect of the enemy, wheeled about and bore mostly forcibly back. 6 But he, fearing lest this should be taken as a bad omen by the Romans and lead to confusion among them, quickly reined his horse round to the left and made him face the enemy, while he himself made adoration to the sun, implying that it was not p451by chance, but for this purpose, that he had wheeled about; for it is the custom with the Romans to turn round in this way when they make adoration to the gods. And in the moment of closing with the enemy he is said to have vowed that he would consecrate to Jupiter Feretrius the most beautiful suit of armour among them.

7 Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. 2 Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him. 3 Then leaping from his horse and laying his hands upon the armour of the dead, he looked towards heaven and said: "O Jupiter Feretrius, who beholdest the great deeds and exploits of generals and commanders in wars and fightings, I call thee to witness that I have overpowered and slain this man with my own hand, being the third Roman ruler and general so to slay a ruler and king, and that I dedicate to thee the first and most beautiful of the spoils. Do thou therefore grant us a like fortune as we prosecute the rest of the war."

4 His prayer ended, the cavalry joined battle, fighting, p453not with the enemy's horsemen alone, but also with their footmen who attacked them at the same time, and won a victory, in its sort and kind, was remarkable and strange. For never before or since, as we are told, have so few horsemen conquered so many horsemen and footmen together. After slaying the greater part of the enemy and getting possession of their arms and baggage, Marcellus returned to his colleague, who was hard put to it in his war with the Gauls near their largest and most populous city.9 5 Mediolanum was the city's name, and the Gauls considered it their metropolis; wherefore they fought eagerly in its defence, so that Cornelius was less besieger than besieged. But when Marcellus came up, and when the Gaesatae, on learning of the defeat and death of their king, withdrew, Mediolanum was taken, the Gauls themselves surrendered the rest of their cities, and put themselves entirely at the disposition of the Romans. They obtained peace on equitable terms.

As I have stated earlier I have no problem with the Gaesatae having the fear factor, as that was stated by Plutarch at the battle of Telamon. The rest of the stats I have a problem with, which I will address in another thread later.
In custom battles my Elite Thracian Infantry (Rhomphaiorii?) sliced up the Gaesatae 3/3 times, (flatland, 2 exp, and 1 armour + light/heavy weapon upgrade each) and falxmen are really AP specialists whereas Gaesatae dont have much armour so they may look scary but falxmen are w1n :D

Two things about this.
1. The Gaesatae are outnumbered and have 60 while the Elite Thracian have 80.
2. Every time you are the Thracians the Gaesatae always try to run away to throw their javelins, where upon they take casualties. Try playing as the Gaesatae against the Thracian elites, you will win every time.

[Spendios]

It wasn't just Telamon they performed badly at, but also at Clastidium and Mediolanum:


Two things about this.
1. The Gaesatae are outnumbered and have 60 while the Elite Thracian have 80.
2. Every time you are the Thracians the Gaesatae always try to run away to throw their javelins, where upon they take casualties. Try playing as the Gaesatae against the Thracian elites, you will win every time.

7 months of membership here, and 100% of posts complaining about celtic units stats ?
As a gift will should maybe release a special "EDU Frostwulf edition" with 3 HP Gaesatae and 80 men per units ?

[blitzkrieg80]

I think Frostwulf, as many reasonable people might, expects all units in EB to actually be based on evidence rather than conjecture, especially in consideration to how much is drastically required for other factions than the Celts. Contemporary literature doesn't even speak highly in the case of the unit mentioned yet somehow the words of alleged authority carry weight beyond / in lieu of academic record and available material. Or where is such evidence, if I am mistaken?

[Watchman]

Now I can't speak about whatever research led the EB team to stat the Gaesatae like they did as I know jack all about that, but something I do know is that Frosty's particular examples here blow.

At Telamon the "naked Gauls", whom we can I think legitimately guess to have in EB terms been a mix of Gaesatae and Uirodusios, were caught in a situation unarmoured infantry basically should never end up in lest it be decimated; under the tender attentions of enemy skirmishers without a skirmish screen of their own. There's preciously little close-order heavy infantry can do in such a situation except huddle behind their shields (which even light javelins penetrate dangerously readily, which would not all have been large enough to be truly sufficient cover, and were in any case bound to soon get severely weighed down by javelins) and bleed. Sure, they can toss javelins - both theirs and, if they have the time to pick them up and pull them out of their shields, the enemy's - right back, but that's something of an exercise in futility against nimble open-order skirmishers who can simply dodge them (javelins are large and relatively slow), a luxury close-order troops can straight out forget.

It's sort of like capital ships and torpedo boats; without suitable light and nimble escort ships of their own, the big hitters were wont to get decimated by the cheap little torpedo craft which their main guns were too cumbersome to track and whose attacks they were too big and clumsy to ereliably dodge... or WW2 capital ships regarding bombers, should they be lacking fighter cover, if you want. Same thing. Those skirmish screens were a dire enough necessity, as the Greeks also found out back when they first ventured into Thrace and got hounded to death by the javelin-tossing locals.

Unsurprisingly when the Roman skirmishers finally ran out of ammo and the maniples came forwards - with their salvoes of hard-hitting, shield-crippling, short-ranged and easily dodged (if you had the room to move in...) pila, the Gaesatae were shortly kibbled. The result could not have been anything else in the circumstances.

That's like arguing riflemen in a trench aren't a workable form of defense because an enemy assault preceded by a massive artillery preparation rolled over the survivors...


As for the second - Clastidum and Medionalum - one rather suspects Plutarch is there using the name "Gaesatae" rather loosely, for there seems to be no mention at all of naked warriors - and given how strange and disquieting the Romans seem to have found that particular practice, it seems quite unlikely they would not have been mentioned had they been present. Nevermind now that such freebooting mercenaries are rather unlikely to have ever had a "king" of some sort. My hunch is "Gaesatae" could be - or at least here is - used to refer to any kind of freebooter or mercenary from across the Alps (and not necessarily even from that far away; in other words, these would be the two types of Curoas rather than Gaesatae in EB terms), and Plutarch is for one reason or another using the term as the name of both the mercenaries and whatever Cisalpine tribe was employing them. Probably because he couldn't find the actual name of the latter anywhere and had to use something.

Summa summarum, the "Gaesatae" Plutarch is talking about there are something quite different than the EB unit of the same name.


As it goes, Telamon is the only recorded instance of the Romans fighting the weird naked warriors from across the Alps that I've read of (which of course doesn't prove too much...); and as they were at a grossly disadvantageous situation there and decimated by skirmishers, it reveals preciously little of their combat prowess if and when they could deploy sans such a serious handicap to do what Celtic shock infantry did best - charge their heavy-infantry opposite numbers and try to tear them to pieces in hand-to-hand combat.