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Thread: Celtic elite units

  1. #1

    Default Celtic elite units

    Hello, i've been playing with aedui. I defeated arveni, then i defetead romani, after this i exterminated the sweboz and lusotanna, and at 244 BC i left the epeiros with only one city, destroyed half of the koinon hellenon and defeated completely the casse, achieving the victory conditions, and with 65 regions. I did it all playing with gesaetae, archers, slingers and generals. So i got bored and modificated the script to make me get the reforms at 243 BC. And i felt no difference, because gasaetae are stronger and cheaper than solduros and druids.
    Yes, gasaetae were realy strong, with big muscles and a crazy drug that they used to drink before battles, but its realy sad too see naked guys killing heavy armoured soldiers like solduros. The only thing that i felt usefull was the recruitment of the brinhentin (Noble cavalry).
    After this, in my oppinion, would be nice to decrease gasaetae's strenght, or make solduros and other heavy troops stronger, because waiting so many turns to get a reform that doesn't make much difference is sad.
    This is the best mod of RTW i've playied, it's realy cool to read all the texts and informations that apear in each bulding, units, cultures and wonder's description. It's realy a work of love.So i want to help giving this suggestion . thans for your atention ;D.

  2. #2
    AtB slave trader Member Malik of Sindh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    244 BC?And faction victory conditions done?Thats what i call blitz.

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  3. #3
    Member Member TWFanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    They are arguably imbalanced. The EB guys seem quite happy with their balance though and won't change anything, so your post is falling on deaf ears.

    My recommendation is to go the modders way: reduce Gaesatae stats a bit. I reduced armor a few points (since they have higher armor than many armored units!). This is in keeping with historical accuracy anyways, as it was the Roman pila that was the downfall of these nudists at Telamon according to Polybius. Two hitpoints and 5 armor is a bit high for naked men IMHO, particularly considering that they were easy targets.
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  4. #4
    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    About Druids...do they have a unique trait that isn't obvious? I can't think of any other reason for them to be more expensive and harder to obtain (they require a level 5 barracks instead of 4) than the nearly identical Calawre.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Thankts TWfanatic for your information, but i hope that someone of the EB team will read this and at least say something, even if they won't change anything...

  6. #6
    AtB slave trader Member Malik of Sindh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto
    About Druids...do they have a unique trait that isn't obvious? I can't think of any other reason for them to be more expensive and harder to obtain (they require a level 5 barracks instead of 4) than the nearly identical Calawre.
    Druids raise the morale of nearby troops.

    Stone,you should not blitz so hard.It raises the fun alot.Just a suggestion.
    Last edited by Malik of Sindh; 11-19-2007 at 04:50.

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto
    About Druids...do they have a unique trait that isn't obvious? I can't think of any other reason for them to be more expensive and harder to obtain (they require a level 5 barracks instead of 4) than the nearly identical Calawre.
    Jabarto, they got Eagles that inspires nearby troops, in my oppinion is the only Elite infantry after reform that is worth to recruit, but they can be recruited in only ONE region... and i haven't created any of these yet.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Malik of Sindh
    Druids raise the morale of nearby troops.

    Stone,you should not blitz so hard.It raises the fun alot.Just a suggestion.
    Just a Noob's questions xD: what blitz means? Well, i play at VH/M, and if you guys don't belive me i would take a screenshot of my campaing xD.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    blitz from blitzkrieg "lighting war" basically saying you owned the shitz too hard too fast lulz, or something to that degree.
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  10. #10
    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Malik of Sindh
    Druids raise the morale of nearby troops.

    Stone,you should not blitz so hard.It raises the fun alot.Just a suggestion.
    I thought the Calawre did that too?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by skuzzy
    blitz from blitzkrieg "lighting war" basically saying you owned the shitz too hard too fast lulz, or something to that degree.
    Lol xD. And jabarto, calaware got eagles too, but the cingetos are much more stronger talking about stats

  12. #12

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Oh... but a thing that i really like about reforms is the casse's! After making some tests in custom battle i discovered that if you but the casse sword masters(the green guys with long swords) into a line and lose formation you can cover a realy wide area, so big that one group of these guys can ocup 3, 4 or 5 enemy units at the same time! And then resist very well because of theyr eagles, and if you put the general close theyr line is almost unbreackable. so with 4 of these units you keep the whole enemy army occupied while you just move with other troops, flanking and atacking them from back. With 30000 denary a created a army with the casse with 8 casse sword masters, 3 archers, 1 general and some levy troops against the gauls. i play with huge scale, so it was 2700 casse VS 3200 Aedui.They were with 5 gasaetae, many neitos, archers, and heavy cavalry. I killed them all and they killey just 400 units! very impressive, the reform for casse is very usefull, but to arveni and aedui are not much important, Gasaetae rulez O.o
    Last edited by Stone and Blood; 11-19-2007 at 05:16.

  13. #13
    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone and Blood
    Lol xD. And jabarto, calaware got eagles too, but the cingetos are much more stronger talking about stats
    I meant the Drwdae, the ones from Britain. The only difference between those and Calawre is that Drwdae have +1 Defense/-1 Attack.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by TWFanatic
    My recommendation is to go the modders way: reduce Gaesatae stats a bit. I reduced armor a few points (since they have higher armor than many armored units!). This is in keeping with historical accuracy anyways, as it was the Roman pila that was the downfall of these nudists at Telamon according to Polybius. Two hitpoints and 5 armor is a bit high for naked men IMHO, particularly considering that they were easy targets.
    It wasn't just Teleman which the Gaesatae did poorly at:
    Quote Originally Posted by Plutarch
    until he came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near the place called Clastidium, a Gallic village which not long before had become subject to the Romans. 4 There was no time for him to give his army rest and refreshment, for the Barbarians quickly learned of his arrival, and held in contempt the infantry with him, which were few in number all told, and, being Gauls, made no account of his cavalry. For they were most excellent fighters on horseback, and were thought to be specially superior as such, and, besides, at this time they far outnumbered Marcellus. Immediately, therefore, they charged upon him with great violence and dreadful threats, thinking to overwhelm him, their king riding in front of them. 5 But Marcellus, that they might not succeed in enclosing and surrounding him and his few followers, led his troops of cavalry forward and tried to outflank them, extending his wing into a thin line, until he was not far from the enemy. And now, just as he was turning to make a charge, his horse, frightened by the ferocious aspect of the enemy, wheeled about and bore mostly forcibly back. 6 But he, fearing lest this should be taken as a bad omen by the Romans and lead to confusion among them, quickly reined his horse round to the left and made him face the enemy, while he himself made adoration to the sun, implying that it was not p451by chance, but for this purpose, that he had wheeled about; for it is the custom with the Romans to turn round in this way when they make adoration to the gods. And in the moment of closing with the enemy he is said to have vowed that he would consecrate to Jupiter Feretrius the most beautiful suit of armour among them.

    7 Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. 2 Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him. 3 Then leaping from his horse and laying his hands upon the armour of the dead, he looked towards heaven and said: "O Jupiter Feretrius, who beholdest the great deeds and exploits of generals and commanders in wars and fightings, I call thee to witness that I have overpowered and slain this man with my own hand, being the third Roman ruler and general so to slay a ruler and king, and that I dedicate to thee the first and most beautiful of the spoils. Do thou therefore grant us a like fortune as we prosecute the rest of the war."

    4 His prayer ended, the cavalry joined battle, fighting, p453not with the enemy's horsemen alone, but also with their footmen who attacked them at the same time, and won a victory, in its sort and kind, was remarkable and strange. For never before or since, as we are told, have so few horsemen conquered so many horsemen and footmen together. After slaying the greater part of the enemy and getting possession of their arms and baggage, Marcellus returned to his colleague, who was hard put to it in his war with the Gauls near their largest and most populous city.9 5 Mediolanum was the city's name, and the Gauls considered it their metropolis; wherefore they fought eagerly in its defence, so that Cornelius was less besieger than besieged. But when Marcellus came up, and when the Gaesatae, on learning of the defeat and death of their king, withdrew, Mediolanum was taken, the Gauls themselves surrendered the rest of their cities, and put themselves entirely at the disposition of the Romans. They obtained peace on equitable terms.

  15. #15
    Closet Celtophile Member Redmeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by TWFanatic
    They are arguably imbalanced. The EB guys seem quite happy with their balance though and won't change anything, so your post is falling on deaf ears.

    My recommendation is to go the modders way: reduce Gaesatae stats a bit. I reduced armor a few points (since they have higher armor than many armored units!). This is in keeping with historical accuracy anyways, as it was the Roman pila that was the downfall of these nudists at Telamon according to Polybius. Two hitpoints and 5 armor is a bit high for naked men IMHO, particularly considering that they were easy targets.
    2 things
    1. There are some upcoming changes to the Gaesatae, regarding their AOR
    2. A naked man can dodge pretty well, but in the forecoming Historical Battle of Telamon you'll see for yourselves that a Gaesatae's worst enemy are Velites, lots of Velites with lots of pilae...

    We can't restrict their recruitment like we'll be able to in EB2, the AI will have a harder time spamming them but ultimately it's up to the player's restraint to only use them in small numbers, making a stack of general + 5 cavalry + 14 Gaesatae will probably own everything but it's just not EB

  16. #16
    fancy assault unit Member blank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmeth
    We can't restrict their recruitment like we'll be able to in EB2, the AI will have a harder time spamming them but ultimately it's up to the player's restraint to only use them in small numbers, making a stack of general + 5 cavalry + 14 Gaesatae will probably own everything but it's just not EB
    You could also (if you're Casse) make a stack of 1 general, 9 Goidilic tanks and 10 Gaesatae

    I personally don't find the Gaesatae so useful, i prefer guys like the classical hoplites and Bosphoran archers
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    I personally dont like having more than a couple units of Gaesatae because it really ruins my gameplay experience watching thousands of naked guys swing their "spears" around

  18. #18
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Nothing can stop the player from recruiting them if he so desires. They are strong, certainly, but again the player has an advantage in being able to use missile troops sensibly against these when they are enemies, something the AI fails to do.
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  19. #19
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto
    About Druids...do they have a unique trait that isn't obvious? I can't think of any other reason for them to be more expensive and harder to obtain (they require a level 5 barracks instead of 4) than the nearly identical Calawre.
    I seem to be the only one who has actually used Druids... They have the special ability "chant", which is very cool & creepy in a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmeth
    2. A naked man can dodge pretty well, but in the forecoming Historical Battle of Telamon you'll see for yourselves that a Gaesatae's worst enemy are Velites, lots of Velites with lots of pilae...
    Gaesatae can soak up a lot of javelins from the front, because of their shields. It's sad that in RTW javelins don't get stuck in them, forcing the user to drop them.
    Last edited by Thaatu; 11-19-2007 at 11:29.

  20. #20
    Asia ton Barbaron mapper Member Pharnakes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    If someone was throwing javelins at me, I wouldn't drop my shield. Maybe when it came to close quaters, but I'd damn well hold onto it untill the romans stopped throwing pilla.
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  21. #21
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharnakes
    If someone was throwing javelins at me, I wouldn't drop my shield. Maybe when it came to close quaters, but I'd damn well hold onto it untill the romans stopped throwing pilla.
    That's what you'd want to do, but try holding a shield upright and balanced with a number of pila sticking out of the front, dragging it down...
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    That's why I carry 18 shields.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Yeah, the reason javelins are underpowered in RTW is that the engine doesn't simulate shield damage. Even so, Gaesatae aren't too hard to manage. I generally like to have a unit of them if I can manage, and use them as sort of a crack troop, even when I play Pontos. Them and Hoplitai add a nice mobile wing to the army.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Well, if you look at the gasaetae's status, you will see that his armour is something around 5 or 6, i don't remember very well, and 3 defense of shield. All that these guys got of armour is a helmet, would be nice to decrease theyr armour to 2 or 3, or make them vulnerable to missile atack, specially for the reason of realism. And i agree with the 11 or 12 of defense skill, because these guys were realy awesome fighters.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    They were also great skirmishers since they were named after their javelins. So they would know about avoiding those attacks. Defense skill only covers melee. I would think you'd need some velites with more practice to hit them. And as has been said in many other posts, they have mental armor(Watch the Matrix a few times) since they are drugged up and their pain receptors are shot.

    You're free to change the stats so you can get a traditional RTS elite. The elites in this game are very role-playing oriented.

    Also I do believe when you get the reforms, those new units would have been few and therefore expensive seeing as Rome was buying them over to their side.
    Last edited by Decimus Attius Arbiter; 11-19-2007 at 21:31.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmeth
    2 things
    2. A naked man can dodge pretty well, but in the forecoming Historical Battle of Telamon you'll see for yourselves that a Gaesatae's worst enemy are Velites, lots of Velites with lots of pilae...


    Thank you.... and as Thaatu said: the RTW engine can't model pilums sticking to shields and the user dropping them.
    and I say....Nor can the RTW engine model horsemen being dropped from cavarly, nor can the RTW model phalangites dropping thier pike to fight with swords and then having to pic them up from the ground, spend about 5-10minutes regrouping before using them again.... etc, etc.....


    Gaesatae spamming is sure to lead to victory vs an AI that doesn't know how to fight. The only time spamming of elites is acceptable is when ur fighing VH/VH!! Even VH/H with fatige off IS NOT acceptable (as I am doing right now) Why??? Because ELITES of any faction were few and far between they should only make up a fraction of your army.

    ALSO did u look at the Gaesate's cost???? Is like $3300-$3200 (btw is higher than it was in .81x), and only 60 guys. In SP that doesn't really mean much as U can train 2-3 full stacks of them and still have a profit so long as u keep sacking enemy cities and have a good economy. BUT try to do that in MP with a $25,000-$40,000 budjet, and you WILL NOT be spamming no Gaesatae. (trust me I tried in .81 MP when they were a bit cheaper, I was stuck with having 2-4)
    Last edited by NeoSpartan; 11-19-2007 at 22:13.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Well, my armies were like this: 4 gasaetaes, 1 general, 2 slingers. Thats all. And with these units i conquered cities with 8, 9, or 10 units garrisoned,and only 20 gasaetaes of my army getting killed. So, there was 2 armies marching to north killing casse, one armie marching to west, defeating lusotanna, 2 armies at the east killing what remained of sweboz and epeiros, and 2 on greece. From each turn, playing vh/m, i could take 2, 3 or 4 cities.

    I used to end eachturn with only 6000 denarii, but was very rare to left one citie with no structures getting built. I never had a good amount of money, like 20000, or 30000, because all my money was used to recruitment and bulding. So i think its possible to upkeep many gasaetaes and conquer many cities. But anyway, ill create a new campaing VH/VH, and see if recruiting more levy or medium units will be more effective.

    I agree with you that AI doesn't know how to fight gasaetae, they almost dont create missile units and use them with the porpuse of killing my naked man, and thanks forthe information Decimus Attius, i didn't know that defense skill only covers meele xD... but, anyway, thanks for the discussion guys, i realy earned good information, and i'll make more tests to take new conclusions ;D.

  28. #28
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    I once walked around with an army of 5 gaesatae and nothing else. I took out an army of 25 lugoae and 2 other not so poor units (obviously some were reinforcements), in a very close battle where I only had left slightly more than one unit. It was in an intermediate version where I was creating the money script for the freemen, and it gave way too much money to them, so they spammed levies like crazy. But it goes to show that those naked guys can chew up nearly any amount of weaklings.

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  29. #29
    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaatu
    I seem to be the only one who has actually used Druids... They have the special ability "chant", which is very cool & creepy in a way.
    Carnutes can, yes. But I'm talking about the Drwdae, as in the Casse unit, which doesn't posess that ability and yet is more expensive than the Calawre with nearly identical stats.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Celtic elite units

    just nerf their defense stats or something in the file, rather than constantly complaining?

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