Kingdom's Crusade Hotseat PBM

[GeneralHankerchief]

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/Crusade-18-3.zip

Now to play my Moors turn.

[Zim]

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/Crusade-18-4.zip

[Doug-Thompson]

Will get this tonight.

[Doug-Thompson]

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Crusade-19-01.zip is up.

[_Tristan_]

Purple Rain...

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Crusade-19-2.rar

[GeneralHankerchief]

Zim:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Crusade-19-3.zip

[Zim]

Will get to it tonight.

[_Tristan_]

I'm doing the write-up at present for turns up to 17 and should have it up in two-three hours time...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Good write-ups, Tristan. I really need to do another one.

[_Tristan_]

Glad you like them, GH

I think those write-ups help for immersion in the game and help me also in being watchful what I do with my characters as I rather become fond of them over the course of the game...


I hope I'm not over-doing it with my depiction of the Byzantine defeats...

Nothing personal, it is only the PoV the storyteller...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Don't worry, I'll spin it in an entirely different way.

They're not defeats. They're tactical withdrawals*.

*I hope.

[_Tristan_]

Don't worry, I'll spin it in an entirely different way.

They're not defeats. They're tactical withdrawals*.

*I hope.

That's what I meant tactical withdrawals... did I say defeats ?

(ahem... that would work if they weren't utterly destroyed...)

[Zim]

How do you destroy an army in the field in autocalc? I hit one of EF's armies way back some 5-6 times in one turn, and there will still a few men left.

[Ferret]

for those who don't know this is what Zim is capable of:



never trust him!

[Zim]

Ahhh, good times.

for those who don't know this is what Zim is capable of:



never trust him!

[_Tristan_]

How do you destroy an army in the field in autocalc? I hit one of EF's armies way back some 5-6 times in one turn, and there will still a few men left.

I will tell you the day I destroy Turkey in this game, Novgorod in the Teutonic, and Scotland and Venice in the Grand Campaigns

[Zim]

We're allies in the Grand Campaigns.

As long as it isn't something overly gamey. Do armies get destroyed like agents if they're completely surrounded?

I will tell you the day I destroy Turkey in this game, Novgorod in the Teutonic, and Scotland and Venice in the Grand Campaigns

[_Tristan_]

Something of the kind, yes...

But easier said than done... Practice makes perfect, anyway..

[Zim]

Something along the lines of surrounding the army then defeating it in battle? Then with nowhere to flee to it's autodestroyed?

I have to think about that one. In the meantime I'll have to ask that it not be done in my two games.

Something of the kind, yes...

But easier said than done... Practice makes perfect, anyway..

[_Tristan_]

I don't think it is gamey...

It requires to spend some units from your main battle formation, thus weakening it...

Plus it allows something that you could normally do in SP, ie kill enemy stacks to the last man...

[Zim]

Without knowing how autocalc works, that's hard to say. Splitting an army so that portions of your stack come as reinforcements doesn't seem to change your odds of winning. A recent sea battle, the results of which you'll see when you take the Norway save, suggest that splitting forces has little effect, as long as they are all still involved in the battle.

Part of the reason we autocalc battles is that otherwise, the attacking, human controlled army could obliterate the other with relatively few casualties. A real mp battle between two decent sized stacks would likely result in heavier losses for the winning side than an autocalced one, even if they did chase down all routers.

A large army requires a lot of florins and time to recruit. This exploit enables someone to obliterate a large army just by having a moderately better army for autocalc, or a better general, with fewer losses than would occur in a real mp battle. It's one thing not to worry about people sacking their own cities after recapturing them, or destroying a single agent by surrounding them, but this is potentially gamebreaking.

Because of that I think as a gm I should at least consider it. I'm going to play around with autocalc in SP a bit, and see how much of a difference it makes having to split your forces. At any rate my opinion can't have any effect on those games for which I'm not the gm.

I don't think it is gamey...

It requires to spend some units from your main battle formation, thus weakening it...

Plus it allows something that you could normally do in SP, ie kill enemy stacks to the last man...

[_Tristan_]

In fact I think that those hotseats require some inventive thinking to obtain similar results to those you would obtain in SP...

True, it can be seen as an exploit but we have to remember that exploits exists because the AI is just dumb and cannot compete with a human player...

However, in these games, it is one mind against another, nothing prevented you (except your conscience, maybe ) from thinking of this "exploit" or use it now it is in the open, or even think of a counter to this or even invent another twist that will give you an advantage...

Btw, it is not the only way to kill a whole stack, if the circumstances are right...

I hope I conveyed my point in a good way... That's where not being an natural English speaker is an impediment to conveying one's idea clearly...

[Zim]

Some exploits exist because the AI is moronically stupid, like the ones related to sallies. Some, like this or the surround and destroy agents one, seem to have resulted by mistake.

To my mind using a trick like this is not so much akin to learning a new tactic, as to noticing the deck of cards your playing with is marked, and using that knowledge to cheat your opponents in a poker game. Even if all of the players figure it out eventually, it's still cheating.

I understand your view, and as far as I can tell your English is perfect. I think we just see the game in a different way. I think it actually lowers competition if it comes to fighting to discover the best exploits. I guess it doesn't help that my main "strategy" game experience comes from chess, where the rules and moves you can make are clearly laid out.

In fact I think that those hotseats require some inventive thinking to obtain similar results to those you would obtain in SP...

True, it can be seen as an exploit but we have to remember that exploits exists because the AI is just dumb and cannot compete with a human player...

However, in these games, it is one mind against another, nothing prevented you (except your conscience, maybe ) from thinking of this "exploit" or use it now it is in the open, or even think of a counter to this or even invent another twist that will give you an advantage...

Btw, it is not the only way to kill a whole stack, if the circumstances are right...

I hope I conveyed my point in a good way... That's where not being an natural English speaker is an impediment to conveying one's idea clearly...

[Zim]

Anyway, whatever rules I have in my own games won't affect this one, and if doing that is allowed here, I'll jsut incorporate into my tactics for this game.

Kind of like the no adoption thing in the MPC.

[Zim]

Done.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Crusade-19-4.zip

[_Tristan_]

I guess it doesn't help that my main "strategy" game experience comes from chess, where the rules and moves you can make are clearly laid out.

Mine is from tabletop wargames where you sometimes learn to combine rules and interpret them to gain some advantage...

Two whole different styles, but I fully understand where you come from... and respect it...

[Doug-Thompson]

Got the save. Will play soon.

[Doug-Thompson]

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/Crusades-20-01.zip is up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Bump.

[Zim]

I think Tristan is waiting to hit all of his turns at once, I forget the exact reason but I think he has to go out of his way to be able to play a turn (no gaming computer at his house, maybe?) so he does that sometimes.