Mine in Pella

[Kepper]

Is there any reason for Pella don't star it the first level of mines working, in the cite, after all much of the fortune of Filipe is because of the Macedonias mines.

[Treverer]

"Che dici?" Tosca, Atto III

-- Now seriously, what are you asking? I did not understand your post.

T.

[Malik of Sindh]

He is asking why theres no mines at the start of the game in pella.

[Treverer]

@ Malik of Sindh:

thank you for translating this ... T.

@ Kepper:

The mine in Pella is (together with Dalminion) one of the best in the Area. I guess that's the reason why it's not build at the start. Getting the 1,800 mnai (IIRC) every turn from the start would make it too easy for the human player (either as Makedon or Epirote, to a lesser extend as KH) to dominate the Greek/Makedon/Thrakian region.

Yours, T.

[Maksimus]

If there were no mines in Pella working for about 50 years before Macedonian expansion into Asia - there would be no expansion at all..

So, from the historic side those mines should be working full - even Antigonos Gonatas counted on those mines badly.. And Demetrias and Monoftalm too and most of all Philip II.. If there weren't for those mines around Pella, Philip would have never prepared his army to reach Indus, even true, he would have no resources to make an army of his own.. and Alexander could just dream Babyllon
And still, those mines made his state and army!

So, yes.. I am sorry for the game balance... but there should be .. for sure .. just a small-tiny mine there.. I will make one there in my mod...

[Kepper]

But they have many starting forces and 1ª level of mines in Pella will give you a bust of 1800 mm is almost noting compare it a cost of having Elephant it Epirote and the big army just next to Athene's.
Sorry about my bad English.

[Treverer]

But they many starting forces and 1ª level of mines in Pella will give you a bust of 1800 mm is almost noting compare it a cost of having Elephant it Epirote and the big army just next to Athene's.
Sorry about my bad English.

First: no need to apologize! English isn't my mother-tongue too.

Second: I cannot tell you anything about Makedonia, as I played them only once back in 0.81v2.

But for Epiros: Yes and no.
- Yes, it would be nice to have these mnai.
- And no, as IMHO the Elefantes are only needed in turn one to conquer both Makedonia and Thessalia. Afterwards, their cost/use is near zero, as 1. they are practically useless against stonewalls and 2. the conquests of Dalmatia & Dardanoia need more troops than you have at turn one. The upkeep of the Elefantes will ruin you (and the one of your fleet too, btw) if you wait for a bigger army. "Elefantes are more than just 'wall-breakers'!" Right, they frighten enemy troops, which is IMO their BEST ability/strength. But is it worth the money at that point of the game? IMO no, not after the conquest of both northern Makedonian territories.

As I stated in other posts before, the starting position of Epiros is rather strong, if a Human is playing them! And the possibilities to expand and consolidate are given, the chance that Makedonia & KH are concentrating on each other are given too, and the budget of Epiros is quickly balanced and is making a good profit after one or two years.

To resume: IMHO, there is no need to give Pella a mine1 at the start. EDIT: at least from an "Epirote point of view".

Yours,
Treverer

[Thaatu]

The celts sacked the place thoroughly. After that I'd imagine, with the hectic situation involving Pyrrhus and Antigonos, it took a while to re-establish state managed mining.

[Maksimus]

I think that even Pyrros took some of that gold.. but the point is I think that he run down to Sparta so he could not exploit that more - Gonatas did... and he did use that mined gold even when he needed it while at Athens and to renew Pella to some point - without those mines - there were be no Macedonian's .. in a way..

[Danest]

Doesn't Eb usually choose historical accuracy over "game balance"? if a faction was weak or strong, or held the mightiest mines on earth historically, then so be it!

[Bava]

Doesn't Eb usually choose historical accuracy over "game balance"? if a faction was weak or strong, or held the mightiest mines on earth historically, then so be it!

Well, partially true, but there are some aspects of the game where balance > accuracy. With the mining centers in Pella up and running, Maks would steamroll everyone and their mother and we´d need a calculator to count all the "OMFG!!!! Maksendiona IS overPowered!!111!" threads.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start.

[Thaatu]

I don't know how many players out there play because they want to build infrastructure. I for one am all for settlements to start as they were in the period.

[Kromulan]

You'd have to seriously nerf the mines @ Pella to NOT have it ruin your game. You'd miss the frantic "Can I take ____ before I run myself too far in debt to _____", "Just N more turns of building nothing to get enough cash to build the mine. . . hope they don't attack before then"

[Danest]

I wonder how many EB players are playing the mod because they like to build an infrastructure? I DO like the ability to improve a town, though, but I'd think there had to be some of that going on historically. But I suppose without the city management, all we'd have is a series of battles that could have probably just been imagined in custom battles.

[Maksimus]

Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start.

YOU SHOULD DO THAT
(because if you don't - i will go back to encyclopedias and edit my descr_start.txt myself as I have done it 1000 times before.. offcourse I will post it for everyone)

Even if that means to make 2 descr_start.txt for one's that like faction precisely represented and one's who like fun - and if you EB members are to make a simple thred for fans to vote - .. well.. let me bet that 80% would vote for what Thaatu is saying...

think about it please

[Spendios]

think bout it please

No

[johhny-turbo]

Eh, if you feel that there should be mines in Pella then just process_cq them in

[Treverer]

Eh, if you feel that there should be mines in Pella then just process_cq them in

Haha! Right you are!

(what a simple & brilliant sollution ... <sight>)

T.

[konny]

I wonder how many EB players are playing the mod because they like to build an infrastructure? I DO like the ability to improve a town, though, but I'd think there had to be some of that going on historically.

Me too. I love this aspect of the game.

On the other hand I would like to have more "reasonable" starting armies especially for the factions that are at war. In this sense, the Romans are seriously overpowered because they can raise about everything they have in this periode right from the start, while for example KH has to build, and build, and build before they can even show her enemies a simple outdated Iphikratian Phalanx or a good old Hoplite.

[O'ETAIPOS]

There should be NO mine in Pella at the start. No, definately there will not be mine until I have control over it.

Makedonian position is already too strong now. They were on the edge of colapse, If Pyrrhus was more patient he will advance against remains of Antigonid power in Macedonia instead rushing to Sparta and finis them in year or two

Before Pyrrhus death Antigonids controled only SE and E part of Province of Macedonia most probably. Moreover the whole country was in ruins after civil wars and especially Galatian invasion that happened just 6 years before start date. Antigonos was not able to gather macedonian levy guys. He was fighting with forces composed of mercenaries and as many macedonians as he can find (they were just ired of constant wars. They wanted at that point sit calmy in home and try to get something from demolished fields.

as mak king you have to rebuild the Macedonia first. at that point in was greatly depopulated (alexander took some 30000 men, diadochi wars and civil wars took even more. and then the celts came...)

Majority of mines were closed, some are mentiond to be opened by Philip V - 80-90 years deep in game timeframe. the few still working are giving you profit from the trade. And this must be enough before great investments can be put into opening more mines.

[Thaatu]

Hmm, maybe I should take the 'Pseudo' off of my title.

[Maksimus]

No

You cruel people

[Treverer]

@ Maksimus:

Dear sir,

what stops you from changing the respective txt files? You can easily modify them so that Pella has a mine1 at the start (and whichever settlement should have one too), so that every capital has a facMIC5, so that every regMICs are usable to every faction?

But:

- don't complain when the bigger & wealthier factions are steamrolling either you or the weaker neighbours with MIC4 or MIC5 units, and

- not game related, please use a more friendlier tone and don't use smilies that may offend.

Yours,
Treverer

[Mad Hoplite]

@ Maksimus:

please use a more friendlier tone and don't use smilies that may offend.

Yours,
Treverer

I can't see any offensive smiley in his post. Besides I don't think there's even such a thing in the org.

[Danest]

All right, I see... Maks were certainly not historically in a super-rich situation. It's as if the mines were there before the time period, but someone sacked them. :)

[Maksimus]

It is a joke... you know.. I have no intention to do bad
I like Spendios, and all EB members!

[Hax]

You don't like me, do you?

Well, the answer I guess is pretty obvious: gameplay reasons =P

I'm Epeiros obsessed, and I don't want the Makedonian warmachine to get fueled even crazier. I remember spending one campaign winning Heroic victories on the Ambrakia/Demetrios border.

Good times man, good times...

[Maksimus]

You don't like me, do you?

Well, the answer I guess is pretty obvious: gameplay reasons =P

I'm Epeiros obsessed, and I don't want the Makedonian warmachine to get fueled even crazier. I remember spending one campaign winning Heroic victories on the Ambrakia/Demetrios border.

Good times man, good times...

Oh.. I like you even more! I play my Epeiros campaign a long time now...
But I can not pass the 4 times in arow CTD after one battle against Dacia..

[ross1025]

what exactly is the historical truth? was there mining works at 272BC or did most of them already be sacked?

i dont care the "game balance" thing,i just want to play a most historical-realistic game(that's why i love EB so much),so whatever positions the factions were,just let them be. overpowered or underpowered, nothing could be complained about, because that's what they acutally were at 272BC.this is a historical-simulation game,not balancing-game such as starcraft(although i love SC too).

i wanna change my stat.txt, but i'm not majored in history and not very familiar with modding, could anyone here help me do that? as i saw many guys above have the intention to do a more-historical stat.txt,including the acutal finacial positions and well-developed infrustructure and the elite troops. would you share it please? thanks in advance!

finally,as a new commer here,i'm not intent to offense anyone,and i'm not english-speaker,so please don't get any misunderstanding from my poor english(if they have any confusing statement).anyway,i love EB a lot,thanks all EB members for your great work!