Mine in Pella

[Maksimus]

what exactly is the historical truth? was there mining works at 272BC or did most of them already be sacked?

i dont care the "game balance" thing,i just want to play a most historical-realistic game(that's why i love EB so much),so whatever positions the factions were,just let them be. overpowered or underpowered, nothing could be complained about, because that's what they acutally were at 272BC.this is a historical-simulation game,not balancing-game such as starcraft(although i love SC too).

i wanna change my stat.txt, but i'm not majored in history and not very familiar with modding, could anyone here help me do that? as i saw many guys above have the intention to do a more-historical stat.txt,including the acutal finacial positions and well-developed infrustructure and the elite troops. would you share it please? thanks in advance!

finally,as a new commer here,i'm not intent to offense anyone,and i'm not english-speaker,so please don't get any misunderstanding from my poor english(if they have any confusing statement).anyway,i love EB a lot,thanks all EB members for your great work!

You should just read this EB members post

Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start!

[Thaatu]

You probably mean this post:

There should be NO mine in Pella at the start. No, definately there will not be mine until I have control over it.

Makedonian position is already too strong now. They were on the edge of colapse, If Pyrrhus was more patient he will advance against remains of Antigonid power in Macedonia instead rushing to Sparta and finis them in year or two

Before Pyrrhus death Antigonids controled only SE and E part of Province of Macedonia most probably. Moreover the whole country was in ruins after civil wars and especially Galatian invasion that happened just 6 years before start date. Antigonos was not able to gather macedonian levy guys. He was fighting with forces composed of mercenaries and as many macedonians as he can find (they were just ired of constant wars. They wanted at that point sit calmy in home and try to get something from demolished fields.

as mak king you have to rebuild the Macedonia first. at that point in was greatly depopulated (alexander took some 30000 men, diadochi wars and civil wars took even more. and then the celts came...)

Majority of mines were closed, some are mentiond to be opened by Philip V - 80-90 years deep in game timeframe. the few still working are giving you profit from the trade. And this must be enough before great investments can be put into opening more mines.

[Maksimus]

No... I realy meant the Thellos post.. I think he had a more 'forthcoming' idea about EB game vision and development.. that would suit me more however ... and I would realy like to see proff about those closed mines.. -- you don't acctually have a diary of some Greek miner or ruler that 'someone scked and closed all mines' until somene reopend them in 100 year time and even if they were closed - THE MINES IN PELA EXISTED at that time .. and to reopen them does not mean to build a new mine - that means to put miner back to work again -or even illyrian or thracian miners- that worked in Macedonian and Greek mines a long time before Alexander.. and as far as general history note -- mines were never closed - the gold mines in special even with some 10 out of 1000 miners...

[L.C.Cinna]

you realize that the game has certain limits right?

There are things which can't be represented by this game.

Makedonia was a country depopulated and devastated by war
Try to view the mine you're building as the process it would take to reopen, bring up to full production, secure transports and whatever else.

[Pharnakes]

Exactly.

Besdies, in those days it was easy to burn down mines. Even just neglected mines would collpase fairly fast.

[Maksimus]

you realize that the game has certain limits right?

There are things which can't be represented by this game.

Makedonia was a country depopulated and devastated by war
Try to view the mine you're building as the process it would take to reopen, bring up to full production, secure transports and whatever else.

That is realy not an issue... If you look at the Descr_start.txt (the file in where you see what EB team is made for us to have on the Campaign start) -- you can see that Pelle is the only (well in this case) region that 'had population problems and wars before' - the same argument would go for any Successor state and not to say Barbarians - they had no peace situation either.. and they even tend to die in a much lower average life rate (in years) then the Greeks for example.. so even Barbs had population problems.. but thes still have mines.. .. so, I understand EB wish to balance the game they made - but I wont say ok always.. this is just one debate..

And the game has limits.. Foot once wrote about probs that 1.5 engine brought to them by more hardcoded engine.. so

[Thaatu]

The only "barber" settlement that has mines from the start is Sarmisze-... the unpronouncable city in Getia Koile province, and that's a rebel settlement. So no, "barbarians" don't have mines in the beginning. But as someone already said, Macedonia was divided in 272 BCE with Pella itself controlled by Epirus.
That alone might wreck some administrative infrastructure.


Btw, TA's post didn't actually answer to anything that ross1025 asked. I just thought the O'ETAIPOS's post gave at least one answer.

[O'ETAIPOS]

No... I realy meant the Thellos post.. I think he had a more 'forthcoming' idea about EB game vision and development.. that would suit me more however ... and I would realy like to see proff about those closed mines.. -- you don't acctually have a diary of some Greek miner or ruler that 'someone scked and closed all mines' until somene reopend them in 100 year time and even if they were closed - THE MINES IN PELA EXISTED at that time .. and to reopen them does not mean to build a new mine - that means to put miner back to work again -or even illyrian or thracian miners- that worked in Macedonian and Greek mines a long time before Alexander.. and as far as general history note -- mines were never closed - the gold mines in special even with some 10 out of 1000 miners...

True, partially. Those 10 out of 1000 miners produce just enough to be represented by few hunderd minai you get in TRADE scroll. Maybe it would be better to make for ex 5 levels of mines, with lower ones giving only small amount. But as things are now mines represent established mining. And if the king is preoccupied with keeping the throne and repelling invasions/usurpers you do you think he has time to establish mining?

Firs you need to know what you posess and where things are. There was no computer database that king may refer to. He has to send representatives to find out places where mines were before (and it may not be easy if area was ravaged by enemy and people fled/were taken as slaves/were killed). esp if this happened some time before your time and everything was reclaimed by forest. In most cases you will work from scratch.

Do you know "mine" can run out in reality? and you will have to find new vein. This requres people who have proper skills, and those were not gain in academia that time(well maybe partially were, but "mining engineer" is the guy who knows how to build mine, and use it effectively not he who finds new resources).

If you loose miners you cant just "train" new. Because there is no one to train them. You need to "import" masters from other place, and they have to become familiar with geology of new area. You have to guard them also, especially if the country is in all the time raided by small or bigger groups of invaders.

some of the mines might fell into hands of nobles and all income is going to theire pockets. you do not antagonise nobles if you have enemies on every border, do you?

We don't know why mayor revitalisation of Macedonia came only during Philip Vth age. Maybe destrucions were such deep that what other kings did was not able to help much, fast.
Maybe they were so occupied with politics, interventions in greek city states and defence of borders of macedonia from yearly raids by thracians and Illyrians that they had no time to think about economy (Philip was "freed" from much of this by Roman peace terms). There might be tons of different reasons. The fact is that macedonian economy shouldn't allow expansion in first 50 years at least.

there are also gameplay reasons:

For Antigonos Gonatas major drainer of income was continous war with ptolemies - ptolemaic navial bases were scattered aroud aegean and because of this Antigonos was keeping strong navy. How would we force you, players to not disband every ship, if there is no navial war thanks to RTW engine not able to handle that?

Then how we will stop you from spamming units if you had money available? In reality there was no population to use. Macedonian manpower allowed no more than 10000 men abroad, and even that not every year but rather like one in 2-3 years (those data comes from begining of Philip V reign).

I want player to rebuild macedonia. I want this so he can fell more like real macedonian kings. Antigonos had not easy time and he was strugling to survive.

[Chris1959]

I know little of Macedonian history at this time, but it matters little if mines were working or were not in 272BC it's what they contributed to the economy.

To use a modern analogy, there are gold mines in Wales their contribution to UK economy is so small as to be nothing. There are gold mines in South Africa their contribution significantly higher.

So I would go with the view that mines probably existed but were producing so little as to be non-existent and need to be built up again.

[Maksimus]

True, partially. Those 10 out of 1000 miners produce just enough to be represented by few hunderd minai you get in TRADE scroll. Maybe it would be better to make for ex 5 levels of mines, with lower ones giving only small amount. But as things are now mines represent established mining. And if the king is preoccupied with keeping the throne and repelling invasions/usurpers you do you think he has time to establish mining?

Firs you need to know what you posess and where things are. There was no computer database that king may refer to. He has to send representatives to find out places where mines were before (and it may not be easy if area was ravaged by enemy and people fled/were taken as slaves/were killed). esp if this happened some time before your time and everything was reclaimed by forest. In most cases you will work from scratch.

Do you know "mine" can run out in reality? and you will have to find new vein. This requres people who have proper skills, and those were not gain in academia that time(well maybe partially were, but "mining engineer" is the guy who knows how to build mine, and use it effectively not he who finds new resources).

If you loose miners you cant just "train" new. Because there is no one to train them. You need to "import" masters from other place, and they have to become familiar with geology of new area. You have to guard them also, especially if the country is in all the time raided by small or bigger groups of invaders.

some of the mines might fell into hands of nobles and all income is going to theire pockets. you do not antagonise nobles if you have enemies on every border, do you?

We don't know why mayor revitalisation of Macedonia came only during Philip Vth age. Maybe destrucions were such deep that what other kings did was not able to help much, fast.
Maybe they were so occupied with politics, interventions in greek city states and defence of borders of macedonia from yearly raids by thracians and Illyrians that they had no time to think about economy (Philip was "freed" from much of this by Roman peace terms). There might be tons of different reasons. The fact is that macedonian economy shouldn't allow expansion in first 50 years at least.

there are also gameplay reasons:

For Antigonos Gonatas major drainer of income was continous war with ptolemies - ptolemaic navial bases were scattered aroud aegean and because of this Antigonos was keeping strong navy. How would we force you, players to not disband every ship, if there is no navial war thanks to RTW engine not able to handle that?

Then how we will stop you from spamming units if you had money available? In reality there was no population to use. Macedonian manpower allowed no more than 10000 men abroad, and even that not every year but rather like one in 2-3 years (those data comes from begining of Philip V reign).

I want player to rebuild macedonia. I want this so he can fell more like real macedonian kings. Antigonos had not easy time and he was strugling to survive.

Ok.. you convinced me to that point.. But why wont you give Army Barrack to Pella at start or Epeiros.. even if there were no population, the abilitiy of those factions to train or have elites is clear - the elites were used by Pyrros and Gonatas - were they not? ..This way, with debth of about -5000 to -6000 minai after the first turn with macedon (for example) you are hardly able to build barracks at all - and with population in pella you can be able to have army bs at the start - and because of the lack of money you are realy able to build elites just after some sacked town (like Athens).. So, why not?

[cmacq]

living in the american SW i know all too well that mines go boom and bust. first, i'm not sure which mine your referring to. second, is there any one that actually knows the out put of that mine in 272 BC?

http://books.google.com/books?id=dcT...9STk#PPA185,M1

i hope these questions help?

[Maksimus]

yes it helps realy... so ... it says alot.. I am reading it right now