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Thread: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Sarkozy did America yesterday. I was in doubt about whether to open a thread about it or not, but thought I might as well. The doubt stemming to a large extent to an uncertainty about what angle to give this thread. But the subject is too interesting to let it pass. So I'll just post two articles, and wait and see where it goes from here.


    Speech by Mr. Nicolas Sarkozy, President of the French Republic before the Congress of the United States of America
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Madam Speaker,
    Mr. President,
    Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States Congress,
    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    I want to start by telling you something: For France, friendship first and foremost means being true to one’s friends, to one's values, to one's history. France is the friend of the United States of America. It's not just the President of France who is talking, I am only the mouthpiece of the people of France.

    Since the United States first appeared on the world scene, our two peoples – the American people and the French people – have always been friends. The hardships our two countries have undergone have strengthened this friendship.

    Friends may have differences; they may have disagreements; they may have disputes as families do.

    But in times of difficulty, in times of hardship, friends stand together, side by side; they support each other and help one another.

    In times of difficulty, in times of hardship, America and France have always stood side by side, supported one another, helped one another and fought for each other’s freedom.

    The United States and France remain true to the memory of their common history. It is our duty to remain true to the blood spilled by their children in common battles on both sides of the Atlantic. But the United States and France are not merely two nations true to the memory of what they accomplished together in the past. The United States and France are two nations that remain true to the same ideal, that defend the same principles, that believe in the same values.

    I am speaking in front of the portraits of Washington and Lafayette. Lafayette was the first foreign dignitary to address a joint session of Congress. What was it that brought these two men – so far apart in age and background –

    Lafayette and Washington, together? It was their common values, the same love for freedom and justice. Upon first meeting Washington, Lafayette told him: “I have come here to this land of America to learn, not to teach.” He had come from the Old World to the New World and he said: "I have come to learn and not to teach." It was the new spirit and youth of the Old World seeking out the wisdom of the New World to open here, in America, a new era for all of humanity.

    The American dream. From the very beginning, this American dream meant putting into practice what the Old World had merely dreamed of building.

    The American dream. From the very beginning, from its origins, this American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of each and every person.

    America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who – with their hands, their intelligence and their hearts – built the greatest nation in the world: “Come, and everything will be given to you.” She said: “Come, and the only limits to what you’ll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent.” The America we love throughout the world is the country that has this extraordinary ability to grant each and every person a second chance, since in America, failure is never definitive.

    Here, in your country, in this land, the humblest and most illustrious citizens alike know that nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. This is what constitutes the moral value of America. America did not teach men the idea of freedom. America taught them how to practice it. And she fought for this freedom whenever she felt it threatened. It was by watching America grow that men and women understood that freedom was possible. And this is what gives you a special responsibility.

    What made America great was her ability to transform her dream, the American dream, into hope for all mankind.

    Ladies and gentlemen,

    The men and women of my generation heard their grandparents talk about how, in 1917, America saved France at a time when my country had reached the final limits of its strength, at a time when France was exhausted in the most absurd and bloodiest of wars. France was able to count on the courage of the American soldiers. I have come to tell you, in the name of the French people, that we shall never forget this.

    The men and women of my generation heard their parents talk about how, in 1944, America returned to free Europe for us from the horrifying tyranny that threatened to enslave us.

    Fathers, in my country, took their sons to see the vast cemeteries where, under thousands of white crosses so far from home, lay thousands of young American soldiers who had fallen not to defend their own freedom but the freedom of all others, who died far from home, not to defend their own families, their own homeland, but to defend humanity as a whole.

    That's why we love America.

    Fathers took their sons to the beaches where the young men of America had so heroically landed. Fathers read their sons the admirable letters of farewell that those 20-year-old soldiers had written to their families before the battle to tell them: “We aren't heroes. We want this war to be over. But however much dread we may feel, you can count on us.” Before they landed, Eisenhower told them – and in Europe we haven’t forgotten: “The eyes of the world are upon you, young Americans. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you.”

    And as they listened to their fathers, watched movies, read history books and the letters of your soldiers who died on our beaches of Normandy and Provence, as they visited the cemeteries where the star-spangled banner flies, the children of my generation understood that these young Americans, 20 years old, were true heroes to whom we owed the fact that we were free people and not slaves. America liberated us. It's an eternal debt. And as President of the French Republic, it's my duty to tell the people of America, whom you represent in your diversity, that France will never forget the sacrifice of your children, and to tell the families of those who never returned, the children who mourned fathers they barely got a chance to know, that France's gratitude is permanent.

    On behalf of my generation, which did not experience war, on behalf of our children who will always remember, to all the veterans here today and, notably the seven I had the honor to decorate yesterday evening, one of whom, Senator Inouye, belongs to your Congress, I want to express the French people's deep, sincere gratitude. I want to tell you something important: Whenever an American soldier falls somewhere in the world, I think of what the American army did for France. I think of them and I am sad, as one is sad to lose a member of one’s family.

    That, ladies and gentlemen, is more important than all the disagreements we may have had and all the agreements we may have in the future. This is the bedrock of the relationship between France and the United States of America.

    The men and women of my generation remember the Marshall Plan that allowed their fathers to rebuild a devastated Europe.

    The men and women of my generation remember the Cold War, during which America again stood as the bulwark of the Free World against the threat of new tyranny.

    I remember the Berlin crisis and President Kennedy who unhesitatingly risked engaging the United States in the most destructive of wars so that Europe could preserve the freedom for which the American people had already sacrificed so much. Forgetting this would, for a person of my generation, be tantamount to self-denial.

    But my generation did not love America only because she had defended freedom. We also loved America because, for us, she embodied what was most audacious about the human adventure; for us, America embodied the spirit of conquest. We loved America because, for us, America was a new frontier that was continuously pushed back – a constantly renewed challenge to the inventiveness of the human spirit.

    My generation, without coming to your land, shared all the American dreams. Our imaginations were fueled by the winning of the West and Hollywood. By Elvis Presley whom people are perhaps not used to mentioning within these walls, but for my generation he is universal. By Duke Ellington, Hemingway. By John Wayne, Charlton Heston, Marilyn Monroe, Rita Hayworth. And by Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins, fulfilling mankind’s oldest dream; the day the Americans walked on the moon America was universal and everyone wanted to be part of the adventure.

    What was extraordinary, more extraordinary for us was that through your literature, your cinema and your music, America always seemed to us to emerge from adversity even greater and stronger; instead of causing America to doubt herself, such ordeals only seemed to strengthen your belief in your values.

    What makes America strong is the strength of this ideal that is shared by all Americans and by all those who love her because they love freedom.

    I say this before this Congress: America’s strength is not only a material strength, it is first and foremost a moral force, a spiritual strength. No one expressed this better than a black pastor who asked just one thing of America: that she be true to the ideal in whose name he – the grandson of a slave – felt so deeply American. His name was Martin Luther King. He made America a universal role model in the world.

    And the world still remembers his words, which no young French citizen of my generation has forgotten. Martin Luther King's words – words of love, dignity and justice. America heard those words and America changed. And the men and women who had doubted America because they no longer recognized her began loving America again.

    Fundamentally, what are those who love America asking of her, if not to remain forever true to her founding values? Ladies and gentlemen,

    Today as in the past, as we stand at the beginning of the 21st- century, it is together that we must fight to defend and promote the values and ideals of freedom and democracy that men such as Washington and Lafayette invented together.

    Together, united, we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France –horrorstruck – rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: “We are all, on this September 11, 2001, Americans.” And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you and they made you greater. And the entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people. That's the truth. And from day one, France decided to participate shoulder to shoulder with you in the war in Afghanistan. Let me tell you solemnly today: France will remain engaged in Afghanistan as long as it takes, because what’s at stake in that country is the future of our values and that of the Atlantic Alliance. Let me say solemnly before you today: Failure is not an option.

    Terrorism will not win because democracies haven't the right to be weak, and because the free world is not afraid of this new barbarism. America can count on France in the fight against terrorism.

    And it's together too that we must fight proliferation. Success in Libya and progress under way in North Korea shows that nuclear proliferation is not inevitable. Let me say it here before you: The prospect of an Iran armed with nuclear weapons is unacceptable for France. The Iranian people are a great people. The Iranian people, born of a great civilization, deserve better than the increased sanctions and growing isolation to which their leaders condemn them. We must convince Iran to choose cooperation, dialogue and openness. No one must doubt our determination. We will be firm and we will be able to have a dialogue because we will have found the way to be firm.

    Together we must help the people of the Middle East find the path of peace and security. To the Israeli and Palestinian leaders I want to say this: Don’t hesitate! Take every risk in order to achieve peace! And do it now! Because the status quo masks even greater dangers: that of delivering Palestinian society as a whole to the extremists who, unacceptably, contest Israel’s existence; that of playing into the hands of radical regimes that are exploiting the deadlock in the conflict to destabilize the region; that of fueling the propaganda of terrorists who want to set Islam against the West. France will not compromise on Israel's security and France demands a State for the Palestinians. That is the only possible path to peace.

    Together we must help the Lebanese people affirm their independence, their sovereignty, their freedom, their democracy. No one has the right to prevent Lebanon from living as a free country. What Lebanon needs today is a broad-based president elected by the Lebanese strictly in accordance with the Constitution. France will not accept attempts to subjugate the Lebanese people.

    Ladies and gentlemen,

    America feels she has a vocation to inspire the world. Because she is the most powerful country in the world. And because for more than two centuries America has striven to uphold the ideals of democracy and freedom, allow a friend of America to tell her that with this avowed responsibility comes duties for both America and France, one of the first of which is setting an example.

    Those who love this nation, which, more than any other, has demonstrated the virtues of free enterprise, expect America to be the first to denounce the abuses and excesses of a financial capitalism that sets too great a store on speculation. They expect America to commit fully to the establishment of the necessary rules and safeguards. The America I love is the one that encourages entrepreneurs, not speculators.

    Those who admire the nation that has built the world’s greatest economy and never ceased trying to persuade the world of the advantages of free trade expect her to be the first to promote fair exchange rates. The yuan is already everyone’s problem. The dollar cannot remain solely the problem of others. If we’re not careful, monetary disarray could morph into economic war, of which we would all be the victims.

    Those who love the America of wide open spaces, national parks and nature reserves expect America to stand alongside Europe in leading the fight against global warming that threatens the destruction of our planet. I know that each day, in their cities and states, the American people are more aware of the stakes. I take the liberty of saying, with all the friendship I have for America, that this battle is essential for the future of humanity. We cannot obtain the results we must obtain unless America takes the lead in this battle for the preservation of our planet, of mankind and the human race. We need America to protect the environment of the planet.

    Ladies and gentlemen,

    Allow me to express one last conviction: Trust Europe.

    Our world is unstable, it is a dangerous world. I say here, the United States of America needs a strong, determined Europe. With the simplified treaty, the European Union is about to emerge from 10 years of discussions on its institutions, and thus of paralysis. Europe will soon have a stable president and a more powerful High Representative for foreign and security policy. I want to tell you that Europe must now give new impetus to building up its military capabilities.

    The ambition I am proposing to our partners is based on a simple observation: There are more crises than capabilities to face them. NATO cannot be everywhere. The EU must be able to act in the Balkans and the Congo, and tomorrow in Sudan and Chad. For this the Europeans must step up their efforts.

    My approach – I ask you to believe me – is not ideological. My approach is purely pragmatic. Having learned from history, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I want the Europeans, in the years to come, to have the means to shoulder a growing share of their defense. I want to say these two things from the bottom of my heart so that everyone understands them: Who could blame the United States for ensuring its own security? No one. Who could blame me for wanting Europe to ensure more of its own security? No one. It's in the strategic interest of all our allies, beginning with the United States, with whom we most often share the same interests and the same adversaries, for Europe to establish itself as a strong, credible security partner.

    At the same time, and equally forcefully, since I'm well aware of my country's political history, I want to affirm my attachment to NATO. I say it here before this Congress: The more successful we are in the establishment of a European Defense, the more France will be resolved to resume its full role in NATO.

    I would like France, a founding member of our Alliance and already one of its largest contributors, to assume its full role in the effort to renew NATO’s instruments and means of action and, in this context, to allow its relations with the Alliance to evolve concurrently with the development and strengthening of a European Defense.

    This isn't the time for theological quarrels, we no longer have time for that! It's time for pragmatic responses to make our security tools more effective and more operational in the face of crises. The European Union and NATO must march hand in hand. It's our duty to protect our fellow citizens, we will protect them together. A credible and strong European defense within a revamped Alliance.


    * * *
    Ladies and gentlemen,

    Finally, I want to be your friend, your ally and your partner. But I want to be a friend who stands on his own two feet, an independent ally, a free partner. Because these are the values we share together.

    France must be stronger. I am determined to carry through all the reforms that my country has put off for too long. I will not backtrack, because France has backtracked for too long. France has enormous assets. I want to put France in a position, while respecting its unique identity, to win all the battles of globalization. I passionately love France. I am clear-sighted about the work that remains to be accomplished.

    It is this ambitious, clear-sighted France I have come to present to you today. A France that comes out to meet America to renew the pact of friendship and the alliance that Washington and Lafayette sealed in Yorktown.

    Together, ladies and gentlemen, let us be worthy of their example. Together, let us be equal to their ambition. Together, let us be true to their memories!

    Yes, ladies and gentlemen, in the name of the French people, I say to you:

    Long live the United States of America!

    Long live France!

    And long live the friendship between France and the United States of America!



    France divided as Sarkozy woos US
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Supporters say Mr Sarkozy has won hearts and influence in the US
    That Nicolas Sarkozy is France's most pro-American president in generations - in fact, come to think of it, ever - there is no reason to argue over.
    It is the one point on which both he and his enemies would agree.

    A man who declared his intention on going to Washington of "reconquering the heart of America" - and who in his speech to Congress cited Elvis Presley, Charlton Heston and Neil Armstrong as his heroes - is clearly not lukewarm about "les Etats-Unis".

    The question is what it all signifies.

    For supporters, Mr Sarkozy is quite properly correcting a historic imbalance in French-US relations - bringing to an end the knee-jerk hostility of his predecessors, both Gaullist and Socialist.

    But for his critics, the president's admiration for America is a dangerous obsession.

    They see France abandoning its duty to provide the world with an alternative conception of power, as their besotted leader realigns foreign policy behind the dreaded George W.

    French reaction to Mr Sarkozy's Washington visit has reflected this basic difference of views.

    American dream

    For pro-government newspapers like Le Figaro, Mr Sarkozy's "Operation Seduction" was a success. Hearts were won in an America starved of praise.

    "In a country which cannot get over being so ill-loved in the world, it was refreshing to hear a foreigner - one from the old continent - intone so sincere a hymn to the American dream, a dream so often denigrated but which appeared to acquire a new vigour coming from his lips," the newspaper's editorial enthused.

    No French president who goes to America, even in the darkest days of their relationship, has ever failed to pay lip-service to certain accepted truths.


    Critics say he is besotted with a country he does not understand
    One of these is that France is America's oldest ally; another is that France will never forget the debt of blood paid by GIs in 1944; and the third is that even when the two countries disagree on everything from farm subsidies to the war on terrorism, they are still "friends".

    Mr Sarkozy said all these things, but he went much further.

    When - in the speech's most ringing phrase - he declared that "wherever an American soldier dies in the world, I think of what the American army did for France", it was a conscious effort to link the shared struggles of the past with those of today.

    "America can count on France," he said, in words unthinkable from Jacques Chirac.

    Friends say that this new alliance will give Mr Sarkozy influence over Washington in areas where the two countries still disagree, like the environment and what Mr Sarkozy calls "the excesses of financial capitalism".

    But for his opponents, the president has, in the words of Liberation newspaper, "got lost in his American dream".

    'Naive'

    The left sees the president blundering naively into an America that he worships but does not understand. And it notes sardonically that Sarkozy's paeans of praise come just as the country itself succumbs to post-Iraq disillusionment about its place in the world.


    One critic suggested he was seeking America's heart after losing his own
    Significantly, Thursday's edition of Liberation was edited not by the regular staff of the newspaper but by a collective of "philosophes" - the invitation a gesture to show that philosophers remain relevant in modern society.

    It need hardly be said that the philosophers are all utterly hostile to Sarkozy, but they do provide some food for thought about the well-spring of Sarkozy's Americanophilia.

    Dominique Quessada, for example, said the president has "psychopathologically as well as politically" swallowed whole the myth of the lone American hero, in constant battle with society.

    "His action is built round a giddying BruceWillisation: I arrive and I save the world," he wrote.

    And in another flight of speculation, the philosopher and writer Michel Onfray saw significance in Sarkozy's use of the phrase "re-conquer the heart of America."

    Because has the president not just lost his own heart, in the person of his beloved but now divorced wife Cecilia?
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    The men and women of my generation heard their grandparents talk about how, in 1917, America saved France at a time when my country had reached the final limits of its strength, at a time when France was exhausted in the most absurd and bloodiest of wars. France was able to count on the courage of the American soldiers. I have come to tell you, in the name of the French people, that we shall never forget this.
    My great grandfather fought in the trenches in France. It's nice to hear him acknowledge this gratitude.

    Good speech. I've been in favor of improved Franco American relations for a long time. France and America have a long history mutual friendship.

    If it wasn't for the French, we would have never beaten the British.

    If it wasn't for the Americans, France would not have been liberated, atleast for a while.



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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    About time a french president tries to end this absurd hostility, nothing but big ego's overestimating their importance. Best statemen of Europe, salute.

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    You said it, Frag.

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    A step forward. As long as it survives Sarkozy's volatile nature...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    If it wasn't for the French, we would have never beaten the British.

    If it wasn't for the Americans, France would not have been liberated, atleast for a while.
    Interesting as such historical connections may be, I always fail to see what they mean beyond rhetoric for polticians' speeches. It's good to remember and acknowledge, but not so much to derive some modern day meaning from relations between countries in a past where both were significantly different from their modern selves. In this case, it's quite harmless, less so in other places in the world where nations/ethnic groups claim to have some justification for various nasty acts in the past, with the other side seemingly always able to come up with some earlier justification.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Prince of Maldonia Member Toby and Kiki Champion, Goo Slasher Champion, Frogger Champion woad&fangs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    I don't know what to say other than
    Why did the chicken cross the road?

    So that its subjects will view it with admiration, as a chicken which has the daring and courage to boldly cross the road,
    but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the princely
    chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
    A step forward. As long as it survives Sarkozy's volatile nature....
    Haven't drowned yet? Bring an extra pair of socks tommorow

    This case rhetoric means a lot, it's about a declaration of love comming from France. France has always feared a hyperstate and was an annoyance just for the sake of it.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    America was in WWI?

    My god Watson its true. Maybe they were in WWII too.
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    I wouldn't say its too much of a shift, US and France were hardly enemies before this, I would say its a positive move as even though there are differences on policy the basics like democracy and capitalism remain the same.

    These are the countrys that need to represent a United front in trouble spots around the world like Iran and Sudan.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    TO little to late
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    TO little to late
    A bit harsh. The US did eventually enter into both WWI, WWII and did help Texas fight for independence. Should let bygones be bygones.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Monsieur le président de la république made a fine speech, citing our mutual sacrifices on behalf of freedom, on the eve of the US's Veterans Day.

    So when will the Legionnaires arrive in Baghdad?
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    That's the funny thing. The two World Wars was US helping France vs Germany.

    Right now Germany and France are tight partners and the US is a jilted lover.

    So it seems that until action happens this is merely window dressing.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    What does "je't'aime" mean?
    It's good to see the big guys play nice, maybe sooner or later they'll reach out to the little guys!

    Who am I kidding?
    Last edited by IrishArmenian; 11-09-2007 at 05:18.

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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
    What does "je't'aime" mean?
    I love you.
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    So when will the Legionnaires arrive in Baghdad?
    When pigs fly... Sarko is too smart to send our troops to your illegal war.
    Oh, well, I hope so....

    Seriously: Sarko is still popular here in France, but the best way for him to get hated would be sending the french army in Irak. The man is a gambler. He gambles much in France those times, quite successfully for the moment BUT getting involved in your stupid war would be the last thing to do.
    Let him suck GWB's **** as much as he wants, don't expect more since it would be Sarko's political suicide. I don't think he seeks death.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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  17. #17
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Frag and Prole nailed it. Sarkozy is just acknowledging reality. I actually don't think he has any big love affair with the U.S. and I'm pretty sure he has no intentions of putting French troops in Iraq (not unless they're under a UN mandate, led by somebody who isn't American).

    People who have supported France's position on our war in Iraq have said "this is what friends do, they disagree with each other". And that's true, friends do have disagreements when their values are in conflict, both at the personal level and at the national level. But in that disagreement, even if it doesn't get resolved, sooner or later, you move on. You don't end the friendship. And that moving on is what Sarkozy is trying to do, IMHO.

    I think that in the coming year, if you don't see the Iraqi parliament make significant progress, you're going to start to see the U.S. taking troops out anyway. We cannot keep the status quo up indefinitely, and thus far, the Iraqis haven't shown that they want to find solutions and get all factions involved in a stable government. We can't make them want to do that.

    If I'm right, and I think I am, Sarkozy's timing is impeccable. Start the make-up just before the conflict is externally resolved anyway and look like the 'bigger person', with no real cost..... Mrs. Corleone does it to me all the time.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 11-09-2007 at 12:39.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
    When pigs fly... Sarko is too smart to send our troops to your illegal war.
    Oh, well, I hope so....
    I thought the original point of the Legion d' Etrangers was for them to draw those kinds of crap-details without risking any Frenchmen and while leaving the "official" French army a comfortable distance away....

    Though you are probably correct that the political price for deploying French troops (of any stripe) to Iraq would be more of his political capital than M. S'y is willing to spend.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  19. #19
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    ^^What Seamus^^ wrote.

    Plus, my question was not entirely sincere. I do not expect to see French troops in Fallujah tomorrow, of course. My point was: Your President spoke pretty words, that were appreciated by the US audience, but they remain just that: pretty words.

    My actual question then, is: What will those words translate to, in terms of actions, if any?

    Judging by Tristuskhan's response, I suspect the answer is: not much.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  20. #20
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Just wait, in a few years Americans will love the French because of this speech, just like we love the US for JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner".

    I'm not going to guess what a french politician might have intended but it sounds like a step into the right direction.

    Sooner or later the US will apply for EU membership anyway.


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  21. #21
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Should have been in Frankfurt

  22. #22
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Sooner or later the US will apply for EU membership anyway.
    Not as crazy an idea as one might think; if he thought he could get away with it, my governor (The Terminator) would, I think, jump at the chance to align California with the EU.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  23. #23
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    I thought the original point of the Legion d' Etrangers was for them to draw those kinds of crap-details without risking any Frenchmen and while leaving the "official" French army a comfortable distance away...
    As far as I know the foreign legion is just plain part of the french army. French navy commandos also perform such "crap-details drawing" (mind: I just LOVE your words) very often. Both corps are currently playing football with the natives in the stinking streets of Kabul

    @don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?

    Besides that, your last statement is nice about Sarko... but "just before the conflict is externally resolved"? Really?
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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  24. #24
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
    @don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?
    I read that as acknowledging the reality that the US and France aren't enemies, that they share a whole lot of common interests, and that this whole hissy fit between the two nations over the last few years was clearly completely seperate from reality.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  25. #25
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

    @don corleone: "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?
    Calm down, I didn't mean (or imply) anything of the sort.

    The 'reality' that I meant I explained. That maybe France disagrees with America's Iraq policies. Certainly your right to do so. But at some point, you have to look past that and continue with the relationship.

    If you're the type that ends friendships over anything your friends do that you disagree with, you must be a very lonely individual.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  26. #26
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Waldinger
    I for one shall always respond to this with a firm vive les Etats-Unis d’Amérique! Et vive l’amitié entre la France et les Etats-Unis!

    Et vive le Texas!


    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey_S
    Interesting as such historical connections may be, I always fail to see what they mean beyond rhetoric for polticians' speeches. It's good to remember and acknowledge, but not so much to derive some modern day meaning from relations between countries in a past where both were significantly different from their modern selves. In this case, it's quite harmless, less so in other places in the world where nations/ethnic groups claim to have some justification for various nasty acts in the past, with the other side seemingly always able to come up with some earlier justification.
    Good points. The whole visit was heavy on symbolism. 250 years of Lafayette, Yorktown, World Wars, Normandy. I am always a bit wary of too much symbolism - more often than not it is invoked to mask lack of substance.

    But states need symbols too. It gives a sense of direction, focus and unity. Even something as simple as a rowing team needs colours, cups, legends, clubsongs. These are unifying instruments. To help members get a sense of belonging.

    I must say I personally am not indifferent to the specific symbolism of this trip. 'Normandie' does mean something to me. As does the story of Lafayette, who gave up comfortable position, fortune and title for America's call of, or: for, liberty. And an appeal to the shared values of the twin sister republics of the Enlightenment is always a rallying cry for me.
    So to me, yes, there was something special about seeing Sarkozy give a speech of this nature under the portraits of Washington and Lafayette, portraits which to this day hang in the House of Representatives.

    I wallowed in it, to be honest.


    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    My point was: Your President spoke pretty words, that were appreciated by the US audience, but they remain just that: pretty words.
    My actual question then, is: What will those words translate to, in terms of actions, if any?
    The short answer: Sarkozy's pretty words are as good as America's pretty promise to stand up for democratic values anywhere.

    There will always be an Abu Graibh, a september 11 - 1973 style, cynical lobby groups misdirecting America's foreign policy. Similarly, France will always be...France. Nations don't change much.
    For people as well as nations goes that behaviour is a better predictor of behaviour than words.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Should have been in Frankfurt
    No! In Vienna! "Ich bin ein Wiener..."

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Followed by his travelling to the good old Austrian town of


    'Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ******!!' Ich bin ein ****** Austrian!'


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  27. #27
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
    "acknowledging reality"? What do you mean. Do you mean that countries that refused to follow the US in their bloody adventure should bend and apologise?
    Apoligise to africa first for all the sick regimes France supported, that would be somewhat of a start. The invisible hand under the skirt smells just as fishy.

    edit, that's a rather anglo-saxon sense of topography you have there Louis, Vienna?

    Let's settle it at Hamburg, made mcDonalds great.
    Last edited by Fragony; 11-09-2007 at 19:37.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    But at some point, you have to look past that and continue with the relationship.
    But the relationship did continue anyway , in Afghanistan , Haiti , North Africa ,Djibouti ...... the "breakdown" in the relationship was just a little insignificant hissy fit that was amplified by some numbnuts politicians and the media .

  29. #29
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    But the relationship did continue anyway , in Afghanistan , Haiti , North Africa ,Djibouti ...... the "breakdown" in the relationship was just a little insignificant hissy fit that was amplified by some numbnuts politicians and the media .
    And Sarkozy is trying to put an end to the 'hissy' fit and moving on. Good for him.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  30. #30
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sarkozy: America, je t'aime

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Not as crazy an idea as one might think; if he thought he could get away with it, my governor (The Terminator) would, I think, jump at the chance to align California with the EU.
    "align" California with the EU??? Hell, he'd prefer to petition for membership.....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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