AtB New Factions

[White_eyes:D]

What you have there is good enough for a beta so focus on that unless one region of the map gets rolled to early

[Constantine the Great]

Getai would probably fit well, to make sure the Maks don't go crazy in thr Balkans.

[Malik of Sindh]

I don't know how much times ill have to repeat this,but we aren't including anymore factions in the west.

Admetos,take off my drunken response to a chat message from your sig

[Pharnakes]

So you admit you were drunk?

Underage!!!

[Diamondj]

I actually think Meroe would be pretty cool and I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that they won't have enough units. The main problem I can think of is balance, the fact that almost all their units would be so light ( since they are a desert faction) makes me think it would be hard for them to engage other civilizations on an equal footing. I suppose it could be tempered by lowering their cost and making elephants easier to access but that seems to only solve part of the problem.

[Son of Perun]

I really, really, really do want to include them, I can't emphasis that enough, but reading what the EB team thinks about it in the EB2 forum, I really can't see them being in because, and no offence Perun, I listen to what they've said and trust it more. As a kind rule for this mod, I think what would the EB team do, and they've explicitly said no Meroe in EB2 for various reasons, and for me, that means I just can't vote for them to be in, and I'm sure Pharnakes feels the same, so unless you can give us some hard historical evidence, they won't be in.

Thanks for response, Admetos.
Well, what to say? I guess you are right when you trust the EB team more than me, but don't forget that was a discussion about different mod with different requirements. If you have read the arguments for and against Meroe (I bet you have), you should know that the main problem in EB2 is the lack of culture slots. Remember that I'm not a historian, I'm only a fan, but I think that all the problems with Meroe could be easily solved in AtB. For example, there was a problem that in EB the Kushites wouldn't have enough space to expand and they would have to start a suicidal war with the Ptolemies. In AtB, Meroe would be able to expand in east Africa and become more powerful before the inevitable war. Also you could use the Egyptian portraits from the vanilla RTW, as the Kushites and the Egyptians were ethnically very close.

The arguments about historical relevance of this kingdom were, from my side of view, more than sufficient. The Meroe of this period was richer, bigger and stronger than some of the factions which are in AtB now. On top of that it was a kingdom that outlasted many other and repelled every attempt to conquer it (except the last one).

I'm sure that Pharnakes doesn't agree with me, but isn't that because he wants the shadow factions for the Seleucids and Ptolemies?

It would be nice if someone from EB team told his opinion to this topic (without starting the whole discussion from EB2 again.)

[TWFanatic]

I don't know how much times ill have to repeat this,but we aren't including anymore factions in the west.

No offense, but Macedon is going to be boring as hell. This is a shame for someone looking to recreate the empire of Alexander.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Son of Perun
Thanks for response, Admetos.
Well, what to say? I guess you are right when you trust the EB team more than me, but don't forget that was a discussion about different mod with different requirements. If you have read the arguments for and against Meroe (I bet you have), you should know that the main problem in EB2 is the lack of culture slots. Remember that I'm not a historian, I'm only a fan, but I think that all the problems with Meroe could be easily solved in AtB. For example, there was a problem that in EB the Kushites wouldn't have enough space to expand and they would have to start a suicidal war with the Ptolemies. In AtB, Meroe would be able to expand in east Africa and become more powerful before the inevitable war. Also you could use the Egyptian portraits from the vanilla RTW, as the Kushites and the Egyptians were ethnically very close.

The arguments about historical relevance of this kingdom were, from my side of view, more than sufficient. The Meroe of this period was richer, bigger and stronger than some of the factions which are in AtB now. On top of that it was a kingdom that outlasted many other and repelled every attempt to conquer it (except the last one).

I'm sure that Pharnakes doesn't agree with me, but isn't that because he wants the shadow factions for the Seleucids and Ptolemies?

It would be nice if someone from EB team told his opinion to this topic (without starting the whole discussion from EB2 again.)

Yeah, it would be great to get someone from the EB team to help us out on this. I don't think we have the same problems as the EB team to with putting them in EB2, because like you say, we've got enough room for them to expand and culture's no longer a problem, but I am still concerned about their unit roster. Like I said, it'd be great to have someone from EB give us their view on this and settle the arguement.

[Son of Perun]

I've continued in my research on Kushite military but it's damn hard to find anything about them. There are almost no archeological excavations in modern Sudan because of the civil war and also lot of ancient Kushite cities are lying on the bottom of the lake Nasser . But finally I've found something in the translations of classical texts:

Herodotus is mentioning the Kushites in his Histories, but it's about 200 years before AtB starts and thus a bit useless.

Where the south declines towards the setting sun lies the country called Ethiopia, the last inhabited land in that direction. There gold is obtained in great plenty, huge elephants abound, with wild trees of all sorts, and ebony; and the men are taller, handsomer, and longer lived than anywhere else. The Ethiopians were clothed in the skins of leopards and lions, and had long bows made of the stem of the palm-leaf, not less than four cubits in length. On these they laid short arrows made of reed, and armed at the tip, not with iron, but with a piece of stone, sharpened to a point, of the kind used in engraving seals. They carried likewise spears, the head of which was the sharpened horn of an antelope; and in addition they had knotted clubs. When they went into battle they painted their bodies, half with chalk, and half with vermilion.

I have found better account on Kushite army and weapons in Strabo's Geography, where he describes the war between the Romans and the Kushites.

They go naked, or wear skins only, and carry clubs. They deprive themselves of the foreskin, but some are circumcised like Egyptians. The Ethiopian Megabarae have their clubs armed with iron knobs. They use spears and shields which are covered with raw hides. The other Ethiopians use bows and lances. Some of the Troglodytae, when they bury their dead, bind the body from the neck to the legs with twigs of the buckthorn. They then immediately throw stones over the body, at the same time laughing and rejoicing, until they have covered the face. They then place over it a ram's horn, and go away. They travel by night; the male cattle have bells fastened to them, in order to drive away wild beasts with the sound. They use torches also and arrows in repelling them. They watch during the night, on account of their flocks, and sing some peculiar song around their fires. . . .

We have before related how Aelius Gallus, when he invaded Arabia with a part of the army stationed in Egypt, exhibited a proof of the unwarlike disposition of the people; and if Syllaeus had not betrayed him, he would have conquered the whole of Arabia Felix. The Ethiopians, emboldened in consequence of a part of the forces in Egypt being drawn off by Aelius Gallus, who engaged in war with the Arabs, invaded the Thebaïs and attacked the garrison, consisting of three cohorts, near Syene; surprised and took Syene, Elephantine, and Philae, a sudden inroad; enslaved the inhabitants, and threw down statues of Caesar. But Petronius, marching with less than 10,000 infantry and 800 horse against an army of 30,000 men, compelled them to retreat to Pselchis [former Maharraqa--now submerged beneath Lake Nasser], an Ethiopian city. He then sent deputies to demand restitution of what they had taken, and the reasons which had induced them to begin the war.

On their alleging that they had been ill-treated by the nomarchs, he answered, that these were not the sovereign of the country, but Caesar. When they desired three days for consideration, and did nothing which they were bound to do, Petronius attacked and compelled them to fight. They soon fled, being badly commanded, and badly armed; for they carried large shields made of raw hides, and hatchets for defensive weapons; some, however, had pikes, and others swords. Part of the insurgents were driven into the city, others fled into the uninhabited country; and such as ventured upon the passage of the river escaped to a neighboring island, where there were not many crocodiles on account of the current. Among the fugitives were the generals of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians in our time, a masculine woman, and who had lost an eye. Petronius, pursuing them in rafts and ships, took them all and despatched them immediately to Alexandria. He then attacked Pselchis and took it. If we add the number of those who fell in battle to the number of prisoners, few only could have escaped.

I think I don't have to add that Strabo's view of the Kushites was a bit prejudiced. But from the information we can see that the Kushite unit roster in AtB would consist at least of spearmen, archers, axemen, swordsmen, clubmen and pikemen. I'm a bit concerned about the cavalry though. The Kushites certainly used cavalry, but before the AtB time-frame. I haven't found any mention of Kushite horsemen after they left Egypt in 671 BC. I guess it was because the area around Meroe wasn't suitable for breeding horses. This can be easily solved: after the Kushites conquer part of Egypt and hold it for certain time, a reform takes place and gives them access to cavalry (similar to the Indo-Saka reform).

[Malik of Sindh]

Not enough in my opinion.

[Admetos]

The info you've posted there Perun is from a war with the Romans, so this definetly dosen't show us a thing about what they'd be like in our mod, which starts in 260 BC. Also, could we PLEASE have an EB member give us a definitive view on this. I've read the threads in the EB2 forum, but near the end, Foot says that they won't be included because of culture. So, we'd really appreciate it if someone could finally settle this debate and tell us whether the EB team would include them if culture wasn't a problem.

[Geoffrey S]

Guys, it's your mod. If you don't feel comfortable deciding whether a faction should be included or not, well, it'll be a bumpy road for your team.

[Vorian]

Maybe, you should stick to those factions you have and use the slots for shadow factions. Since you don't want to add another European faction there is not much choice, Middle East was a place of great empires at that time, so you have few states.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Admetos]

Geoffrey S - It's not that we don't feel comfortable including them, we just want to know kind of unit roster they'd have from a proper historians point of view and also what the EB team would do in the situation, as if they would'nt include the faction in EB2 for reasons other than the hardcode limit on cultures, then we certainly won't be including them. Also, seeing as none of the team are proper historians, our knowledge of the faction is limited, so we'd like a bit of help from someone expirenced as to whether to include them or not.

Vorian - We may well end up using shadow factions, but we want to keep as many of the factions playable as possible.

[Son of Perun]

The info you've posted there Perun is from a war with the Romans, so this definetly dosen't show us a thing about what they'd be like in our mod, which starts in 260 BC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the first mention of Sweboz is from Caesar from the middle of the first century BC. We don't know almost anything about the military of Germanic tribes in 272 BC, but EB team decided to put them in. Why? Because they use logic. If an outlying nation, which hasn't got an opportunity to evolve, uses some kind of military at one time, it is very probable that it will use the same military a few hudred years later. The Kushites, like the Sweboz, were this kind of nation. So if they had axemen, spearmen, archers, etc. when fighting Romans, they probably had the same army composition 200 years before. Also when it comes to units, I really doubt you will find any historical record on, for example, Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplite. Again it's just a matter of logic. The Indo Greeks ruled the north India and they surely had a kind of aristocracy and that aristocracy had to go to war sometimes and voila, a new unit. So if the Kushites used some kind of equipment in 700BC and then in 25BC, it really very probable they used it also in 260BC. But maybe you have different opinion on the whole thing, if so, I would like to hear it. I see that it is difficult for you to decide whether to add this faction or not, but I really don't see any reasons why not, as we have enough information to make a historical unit roster for them.

Not enough in my opinion.

Sorry, but this kind of response is a bit annoying. This is a discussion thread, so feel free to write something more, for example, why do you consider those information to be "not enough".

[Vorian]

@son of perun


I think the EB team has much more info on Sweboz military methods than what you can offer about the Kushites.

Of course the team will be able to make some units out of the descriptions but they will be "fantasy units", meaning they can't be historically backed and thus unfitting to a mod that wants to keep EB's historical approach.

[Malik of Sindh]

The units you listed are all very poor quality levies.The Kushites would be the weakest faction in AtB and they would get destroyed by Ptolies just like rebels.

[keravnos]

Very sad to see IG go, but it is completely understandable.

So far as new factions are concerned...

1. Kingdom of Macedon(Dark purple)
2. Kingdom of Pontus(Lighter purple)
3. Seleucid Empire(Silver)
4. Ptolemaic Empire(Yellow)
5. Satrapy of Bactria(Blue)
6. Kindom of Atropatene(Dark Red)
7. Hayasdan(Darkest Green)
8. Parthia(Hording possible)(Pink)
9. Saba(Dark orange)
10. Mauryan Empire(Tea green)
11. Pandya(Dark yellow)
12. Wusun Empire(Black)
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon(Sky Blue)
14. Kingdom of cimmerian Bosphoran(Turquoise)
15. Free slot
16. Saka(Red)
17. Romans(emergent 220-160 BC)
18. Yuehzi(emergent 168 BC)
19. Kingdom of Cyrene(White)
20. Free slot

Taprobane? (Present day Sri Lanka)
Massagetae? On decline and about to disappear in about 30 years or so (don't remember now) but it could deffinitely make the case for inclusion, and was around at the start date.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Kos, please visit the Multimedia subforum there's a surprise for you!

[Pharnakes]

I doubt Taprobane will make it, Pandya is going to have a hard enough time surving the Mauryans as it is,without a rival.


The massagetae seem to be worh looking into, but the only info I could find (wiki ) seems to put them slap bang in the middle of seleukid gabiene?

[Tellos Athenaios]

AFAIK the Massagetae are a set of tribes (just like the Daha from which the Parni emerged) which have spread themselves from the borders with the Sauromatae to the Iranian plateau. For what it is worth, I think Herodotos mentions the Massagetae, and the Skythai et all to be all one big heap of tribes, sub tribes and tribal confedarations of nomadic peoples who are all in some way or another related to each other. And that's what, roughly 150 years before the mod's start? So it's mixed even more if anything by 272 BC, I suppose.

[Constantine the Great]

You guys are making it hard to fill the faction slots. Bithnyia, Cappadocia, Meroe, Galatia, all would be good additions.

The best thing I can think of that would fit what you're looking for would be Kalinga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_%28India%29

They could provide an ally for Pandya and a good distraction for the Marayuans.

[Pharnakes]

Kos, please visit the Multimedia subforum there's a surprise for you!

Why do you have to spam our thread with tantalising hints as to what one might find in ebh?


Are you so cruel?





EDIT: and yeah, I found those herodotos refrences, seems they had one wife each, but "pooled" them for the entire tribe

[CaesarAugustus]

I found those herodotos refrences, seems they had one wife each, but "pooled" them for the entire tribe

Sounds like a great idea to me! Why couldn't they have had more of an influence on modern society...

[Son of Perun]

The units you listed are all very poor quality levies.The Kushites would be the weakest faction in AtB and they would get destroyed by Ptolies just like rebels.

Then so would Cyrene. Historically in this period it was just a troublemaker which rebelled against the Ptolemies every time they were weakened. In the game Cyrene wouldn't have any other opportunity to expand than to start war with them and get destroyed.

@Vorian

That's great, but why you are comparing me to EB team? I surely didn't say that I have as many historical evidences on Meroe as they do on Sweboz.

I wasn't writing about any "fantasy units", so you probably misunderstood something.

[Malik of Sindh]

Didin't Cyrene have a campaing going,in which they were close to taking paraitonion?they weren't so weak as you say.And their units aren't levies only.

You guys are making it hard to fill the faction slots. Bithnyia, Cappadocia, Meroe, Galatia, all would be good additions.

The best thing I can think of that would fit what you're looking for would be Kalinga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_%28India%29

They could provide an ally for Pandya and a good distraction for the Marayuans.

We already disscused Kalinga,and it was destroyed in 260 bc.Of course,it rebeled after Asokas death,but the rest of the team didin't want to include it.No more factions in Asia minor,its already overcrowded.

[Son of Perun]

Didin't Cyrene have a campaing going,in which they were close to taking paraitonion?they weren't so weak as you say.And their units aren't levies only.

Magas received the governorship of Cyrene from his mother Berenice. Following the death of Ptolemy I however, Magas tried on several occasions to wrestle independence for Cyrene, until he crowned himself king around 276 BCE. Berenice II, was the daughter of Magas of Cyrene. Magas then married Apama, the daughter of the Seleucid Empire king Antiochus I Soter, and used his marital alliance to foment a pact to invade Egypt. Apama and Magas had a daughter called Berenice II, who was their only child. He opened hostilities against his half brother Ptolemy II Philadelphus in 274 BCE, attacking Egypt from the west, as Antiochus I was attacking Palestine. However Magas had to cancel his operations due to an internal revolt of the Libyan nomad Marmaridae. In the east, Antiochus I suffered defeat against the armies of Ptolemy Philadelphus. Magas at least managed to maintain the independence of Cyrene until his death in 250 BCE, upon which the kingdom was almost immediately reabsorbed by Ptolemaic Egypt.

Considering that he attacked the Ptolemies when they were fighting with Antiochus and even after that he wasn't succesful, the Cyrene really wasn't a powerful kingdom. The independence of Cyrene also lasted only for the lifetime of Magas.

I think you are underestimating Meroe a bit, Malik. Their army didn't consist only from poor quality levies (poor levy usually wasn't equiped with swords). It is true that Strabo was describing them as "badly commanded, and badly armed" but it was because he was comparing their equipment and morale with the imperial legionaires, who were almost invincible force by that time.

Let's look on the whole think from a different side. If you add both Cyrene and Meroe, the Ptolemies will have to fight on multiple fronts. I doubt they would be able to focus on the remote southern border and crush Meroe. The Kushites would be able to expand and maybe even conquer part of Egypt. After conquering upper Egypt, the chances of Meroe would rise with the possibility to recruit Greek mercenaries, and it would become a force to be reckoned with. The 25th dynasty would be restored and Egypt would be ruled by its rightful Pharaohs once more. This is just an imagination of what would the campaign for Meroe look like.

Unit roster for Meroe: 1. Levy spearmen, skirmishers 2. levy archers, light axemen, Machimoi 3. Ethiopian archers, spearmen, swordsmen, Machimoi Hippeis 4.Greek mercenary infantry (consisting of settled Greeks) 5.Elephants

Your opinion, AtB team?

[Malik of Sindh]

My opinion?No ethiopians.

[Son of Perun]

My opinion?No ethiopians.

So you're not going to add them? Well, whatever. C'est la vie.

Then I would suggest the Nabateans and maybe a kingdom in Caucasian Iberia (Kartli or Colchis). They were discussed as the possible candidates in EB2 forum.

[Wolfman]

Seconded on the Nabateans!