AtB New Factions

[Malik of Sindh]

Hello AtB fans

We have decided to scrap Indo-greeks and now we need a new faction.Pharnakes wants shadow factions for Seleucids/Ptolies and Mauryans.The factions which are closest to inclusion are Kirat Nepal and Ethiopia.Plaese post what faction you woudl like in the minimod.

[CaesarAugustus]

Great, now you can add the Galatians!


(On a serious note, I would advise against an Ethiopian faction because, as EB members have stated many time, they would only really have two units, spearmen and archers, and wouldn't make that interesting or formidible of a faction. A Nepalese faction would defienently be interesting, although I don't really know much about the people of ancient Nepal. Any good reading material or web sites on them?)

[russia almighty]

...Ethiopia would also have those swordsmen , archers and cavaliers .


Anyway I'd do Nepal .

[Malik of Sindh]

@Ceasar Augustus There you go,some info about the kirats.http://www.infoclub.com.np/nepal/his...tory_kirat.htm

@russia_almighty I thought youre Ethiopian?Why don't you vote for Ethiopia then?

BTW,we have a free culture slot and 2 free faction slots,so any suggestions for both slots are welcome.

[icydawgfish]

How about Bithynia, Galatia, or maybe taking the current independent greek faction (KH) and use the free slot to make a new league such as the Aetolians.

[Malik of Sindh]

We are trying to focus on east.It is certain that we will not include any more factions in Asia Minor.They would conquer each other in a few turns.Theres no KH.Let me repost the faction list.

1. Kingdom of Macedon(Dark purple)
2. Kingdom of Pontus(Lighter purple)
3. Seleucid Empire(Silver)
4. Ptolemaic Empire(Yellow)
5. Satrapy of Bactria(Blue)
6. Kindom of Atropatene(Dark Red)
7. Hayasdan(Darkest Green)
8. Parthia(Hording possible)(Pink)
9. Saba(Dark orange)
10. Mauryan Empire(Tea green)
11. Pandya(Dark yellow)
12. Wusun Empire(Black)
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon(Sky Blue)
14. Kingdom of cimmerian Bosphoran(Turquoise)
15. Free slot
16. Saka(Red)
17. Romans(emergent 220-160 BC)
18. Yuehzi(emergent 168 BC)
19. Kingdom of Cyrene(White)
20. Free slot

[icydawgfish]

Well I still think at least one faction in greece might be helpful to keep the Macedonians in check so they don't conquer the whole penninsula and go on a rampage somewhere with all that money stacked up. And another suggestion, how about the Sarmartians or Scythians to keep the Bosphorans in check.

[Diamondj]

Has anyone thought about the possibility of the Hasmonean dynasty? They wouldn't be that large or powerful but they would be a pretty nice buffer between the Ptolemies and the Selucids. Also there military would be made up of a unique mixture of both Hellenic and eastern influences.

[Malik of Sindh]

I never heard of the Hasmonean dynasty.Do you have any sites with info on them?

[Diamondj]

I never heard of the Hasmonean dynasty.Do you have any sites with info on them?

They were a Jewish kingdom that rebelled against the Selucids in Israel and established the first independent Jewish state since the Assyrians conquered Israel and Judah. Hannukah celebrates their successful uprising against the Greeks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_Dynasty

[Pharnakes]

We will not be having a jewish faction for the same reason that eb won't - they were never expansionist, if they would take judea and maybe syria, then just sit on it.

[overweightninja]

I notice you guys have mentioned shadow factions, have you considered using a method simmilar to that found in the upcoming RTR release? I'm afraid I don't know too much about it (haven't played RTR since I found EB) but as far as I gather they keep a faction slot or two free, then use batch files to change which shadow factions currently use the slot.
AFAIK this has been designed from the players point of view, to give them something to do as opposed to controlling AI expansion, however thought could still be useful if you haven't thought if it already.
Cheers

[Geoffrey S]

Why not work on what you've already got in that list? It's already a massive amount of work you've set yourself up for, if nothing else I'd suggest working on an initial version with an absolute minimum of (new) factions just to get the campaign up and running, adding in new factions as you go.

In other words, at least for the moment I'd suggest not aiming to fill all slots, but working on (and finishing) about two essential new factions and taking it from there. That's already a lot of work.

[TWFanatic]

It is odd that there is only one European faction. Perhaps you could add the Getai, and while you're at it, since you now have a barbarian culture, you could add the Galatians as well.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[russia almighty]

Malik its because Ethiopia doesn't become one a power till the 300's . Thats when anyone would have to deal with horde's of both armored and unarmored soldiers .

[Pharnakes]

Why not work on what you've already got in that list? It's already a massive amount of work you've set yourself up for, if nothing else I'd suggest working on an initial version with an absolute minimum of (new) factions just to get the campaign up and running, adding in new factions as you go.

In other words, at least for the moment I'd suggest not aiming to fill all slots, but working on (and finishing) about two essential new factions and taking it from there. That's already a lot of work.

Don't worry, we're not going to go bust through over ambition, and tbh, these factions probs won't even be in the first beta anyway. We though we might as well get your opinions, though.


Don't feel like helping us do you?

[Spartan Soldier]

What do you think about Kalinga?

[Admetos]

That's already been discussed, we would have liked to have included them, but that'd just be silly seeing as they weren't around 3 months after the mod's start.

[Son of Perun]

I think Meroe would be a great faction for AtB. I know that there were many arguments against it so I've made a little research about Nubia and Meroe. You can read the facts I've found and decide whether to add this faction or not. Of course there would be problem with the culture slot, as Meroe needs one culture slot for itself (for portraits). The map seems to be more stretched to the south, so there will be enough place in east Africa for a new faction.

Facts about the Kingdom of Kush:

In 8th century BC Kushite kings conquered whole Egypt and began to rule as pharaohs (25th Dynasty). A variety of ancient texts Assyrian, Judahite and Greek show that in this period Kushite Egypt possessed a reputation for exceptional military prowess. An allusion by Isaiah to Kushite Egypt testifies to the impressiveness of its forces just prior to the showdown of 701. The prophet says Jerusalem seeks help from the 25th Dynasty's forces because of its "trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen." The Kushite period of Egypt was ended by the invasion of Assyria in 670BC.

The Kushites had their capital first at the city of Napata, then moved it to Meroe after they were conquered by the Assyrians.

Meroe's location at the convergence of a network of caravan roads with trade routes along the White and Blue Niles makes it East Africa's most important center of trade. The Nubians of the Meroitic Period manufacture richly decorated textiles, graceful decorated ceramic vessels, objects of bronze and iron, exceptionally fine gold and cloisonné jewelry, and other luxury items.

Meroë was the base of a flourishing kingdom whose wealth was due to strong iron industry, one of the oldest in Africa, which may have played an important role in the spread of ironworking in the continent. At the time, iron was one of the most researched metals worldwide, and Meroitic metalworkers were among the best in the world. The Meroites developed a method of gathering water into reservoirs for irrigation that is used in Sudan to this day. Although Meroitic culture preserved its pharaonic heritage and even imported some new fashions from Egypt, it increasingly went its own way, with new styles in art, local deities, and its own written language.

During the final century of the BC era, the kings of Meroe expanded their rule into Lower Nubia between the first and second cataract. This led to clashes with the Roman rulers of Egypt. A Meroite army attacked the border town of Syene in 23 BC and destroyed or seized a number of statues and other valuables. A bronze head of the Roman emperor Augustus, probably seized in this raid, was discovered by archaeologists at Meroe in 1912. The Meroite raid provoked a Roman counter attack which penetrated as far a Napata and caused much destruction. When the Roman army finally retired to Egypt, they took with them several thousand captives whom they sold into slavery. Despite this military setback, under the leadership of King Natekamani, who ruled from 12 BC to 12 AD, the Meroite kingdom recovered to reach the height of its power and artistic achievement. During Natekamani's reign the kingdom stretched from the Ethiopian foothills in the south to the first cataract in the north. The wealth of the period was displayed in the building of temples and palaces. Over the next two centuries relations with the Roman rulers of Egypt were normally cordial and Meroe contributed to the Roman expansion of trade through the Red Sea and into the Indian Ocean.


I know their unit roster wouldn't be very rich, but it wouldn't be very poor either. They could have spearmen, swordsmen, axemen, archers, light skirmishers, light and medium cavalry, chariots (not sure) and elephants. Pics of Nubian soldiers:




I think Meroe was historically important enough to be a faction. In fact the only bigger problem why it won't be included in EB2 is the lack of culture slots.

[Admetos]

Well I'm all for an African faction as that would really add something different to the mod, and luckily, we now have a free faction slot after getting rid of the Indo-Greeks.

[Pharnakes]

Over my dead body. Literaly.

If AtB sinks to a 2 unit faction, I will commit seppuku for the shame.


Finnal Period. <= that thing is a period, in case you didn't know.

[Admetos]

Yeah, ignore my last post, if you can give us some strong historical evidence for Meroe in 260 BC, preferrably about them having more than archers and spearmen, then maybe, but if not, then I totally agree with what Pharnakes is saying.

[Son of Perun]

If AtB sinks to a 2 unit faction, I will commit seppuku for the shame.

Did you read my post? It is pretty obvious that Meroe used more than just archers and spearmen.

[Admetos]

You said they *could* have more units, although you've shown no evidence to back this up. Also, there's no info there about them near our start date, the info jumps from 670 BC to 23 BC. I'm not against a faction in Africa, infact I'd love to have one, but it would basically be just archers and spearmen, and even if I want a faction in Africa, I wouldn't put one in with just two units.

[Son of Perun]

An allusion by Isaiah to Kushite Egypt testifies to the impressiveness of its forces just prior to the showdown of 701. The prophet says Jerusalem seeks help from the 25th Dynasty's forces because of its "trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen."

I know that this was four hundred years before your mod starts but I guess the warfare of the Kushites didn't changed that much. In such outlying regions the evolution of military was slower, so they still could have used the chariots and horsemen. I really don't think they would abandon more complex tactics in favour of a archer/spearmen tactic.

The Kushites would certainly have elephants - they were one of the biggest exporters of them in this period (the Kushite rebels start with elephants in EB).

For the rest of their army you can use the Aithiopikoi Hippeis, Toxotai, Machairaphoroi and Hanatim Kushim as the military in the region was much the same. From the picture I've posted you can see that Kushite soldiers also used axes.

After conquering Egypt, Meroe would also get some Egyptian units (Machimoi, Machimoi Hippeis).

Kushite armies were multi-ethnic and diverse. They employed siege warfare, built forts, and were famous archers. The Kushites also used elephants in war. According to Helidorus, the physique of the Kushites was generally better than that of the Persian invaders. Kushite skulls tended to be stronger. Some of the Kushite divisions included the Troglodytes who were famed to be good runners. In one battle scene, the writer states that Kushite archers were so skilled they would shoot their arrows with deadly accuracy at the eyes of their opponents hundreds of yards away across the battlefield.

So their unit roster would probably look like this:
1. Nubian light spearmen, troglodytai light infantry(?)
2. Nubian light cavalry, levy archers, light axemen, Machimoi
3. Ethiopian archers, spearmen, medium cavalry, Machimoi cavalry
4. Kushite chariots
5. Elephants, Kushite elite infantry(?)

Most of their these are already in EB, so you wouldn't have problems with modelling and skins.

Possible faction icon for Meroe

[Malik of Sindh]

Im not sure about including Kushites,but you are about to persuade me.I dunno what the other members think though.

[Admetos]

I really, really, really do want to include them, I can't emphasis that enough, but reading what the EB team thinks about it in the EB2 forum, I really can't see them being in because, and no offence Perun, I listen to what they've said and trust it more. As a kind rule for this mod, I think what would the EB team do, and they've explicitly said no Meroe in EB2 for various reasons, and for me, that means I just can't vote for them to be in, and I'm sure Pharnakes feels the same, so unless you can give us some hard historical evidence, they won't be in.

[Wolfman]

I'm kinda confused. I still don't understand why you can't include meroe.

[TWFanatic]

Have you thought about the Sarmatians?

Creating this mod would be a whole lot easier and faster if you included all the original EB factions included in the specified area on the map.

[Admetos]

@Wolfman, I did just sort of explain why we can't have Meroe...

@TWFanatic, I think we want to include as may new factions as possible, and our workload is already huge, so I guess we'll just have to cope.