discuss about POLISH WINGED HUSSARS

[Sheogorath]

I've always liked Cossacks more, myself. I mean, come on, did the Cossacks ever call one of the most powerful man in the Western World the 'goat-(humper) of Alexandria' and get away with it?

[Kalle]

Again with the unbeatable husaria. Dunno how many times this topic have been covered in various threads in this forum.

The utter defeat at Kirchholm did not stop the Swedes from advancing in the baltic area upon Polands cost. In early 17th century Gustavus II fought them victoriously on a number of occasions.

In mid 17th century Charles X dealt Poland a blow they never came back from.

And when ETW starts, I.E around 1700 there was most certanly no eastern european cavalry that could match the Swedish cav, Polsih included.

Kalle

[marrow]

Oh dear, just read my post again and I admit, must have had a couple of bevvies too many that evening, admittedly I went a bit ott. Incredibly - no spelling mistakes, how do I do that...

But to the point - Charles X scenario has little to do with our discussion on hussars themselves. Please care to mention that the Swedes, after initial success were severly beaten twice on Polish soil under Czarniecki (although hussars played limited part in those victories) and eventually a peace deal was hammered out. Please also remember that the same Czarniecki later helped the Danes drive Swedish troops out of Jutland and the operation was a complete success.

As for the "blow from which they never came back" bit, I beg to differ. 40 years later hussars proved their skills at Vienna where Turkish army suffered it's biggest defeat in many years at the hands of hussars chiefly.

Also - I'm happy to discuss the unit itself, rather than Polish military history, for which I have little sentiment or time. Fact is, Polish army at that time was quite average and hussars were the only truly effective unit the Polish had. I'm specifically discussing tactical effectiveness, not strategic success. It is indeed true that in military terms Poland was decades behind Sweden. The Swedish had much greater mobility, much better training and superior discipline than the vast majority of Polish army at that time. But that should not detract from hussars' effectiveness as a unit, and in terms of raw power and skill I doubt very much that Swedish cavalry was better that them.

Firstly, standard equipment of a hussar was usually two pistols or a short musket, a 16.5 ft hollow lance (for charging pikemen) and a long, heavy cavalry sword (to finish pikemen off mwa ha ha). Sometimes a bow on top, depending on personal preference. Equally as important as general kit were hussars' horses - well trained and bred especially for the purpose. Hussars great success at Kircholm was a little hollow since they lost a great many battle horses. It's the horses' training and discipline that gave the unit fantastic flexibility and allowed for well organised and controlled charges.

It is the only cavalry unit I know of that was able to succesfully engage pikes, muskets and cavalry alike, and that was so fearsome on the battlefield. Because of that (and their flamboyant presence) this unit has a lot more cred and recognition than any single Swedish cavalry formation. I love a good argument though, so just maybe there were one or two cracking Swedish cavalry regiments with specific armament and tactics that were equally as effective and I just don't know about them. Let me know, I love cavalry in general and will love to hear about Swedish horsemen too!

Thanks!

[LadyAnn]

One of the best cavalry at the disposition of the Swedish army was Finn: the Hakkapeliitta
(This has nothing to do with the ongoing topic, I know :))

Annie

[marrow]

From Wikipedia:
"Because of their strength, camaraderie, and battlefield success, the Hakkapeliitta were well-respected by their adversaries. Hakkapeliittas did not have any special repuation in Central Europe. They are mentioned only in few contemporary European sources" - there you go then!

Thanks for that Lady Anne!

[O'ETAIPOS]

Again with the unbeatable husaria. Dunno how many times this topic have been covered in various threads in this forum.

The utter defeat at Kirchholm did not stop the Swedes from advancing in the baltic area upon Polands cost. In early 17th century Gustavus II fought them victoriously on a number of occasions.

And refusal of Polish parlament to finace the army any longer followed by rebelion of said army does not have any influence on Swedish recover...

Gustavus Adolphus was also bearly captured by polish horsemen on one ocasion and defeted on number others.
You should also remember that his reform of cavalry was done along polish lines:
1) "Western" tactics of karakol were dropped and cavalry was taught to charge "into the smoke"
2) Melee training was expanded

In mid 17th century Charles X dealt Poland a blow they never came back from.

Big overestimation. Without help of Cossak rebelion that devastated 1/3 of Commonwelth teritory (S-E) and Russians who did the same to N-E 1/3 it would hardly be that serious blow. The other thing is that most of Poland was surrenderd to Charles not won by him. For different reasons polish nobles didnt want to fight. And Crown army, always weak in numbers took serious losses fighting on Ukraine, and major part was stationed there (they also swiched sides).

In fact deadly blows was dealt on Poland during Great Northern War.

What may be interesting that Poland was able to mobilise against Charles Gustavus invasion (in 1656, in 1655 there wasn't any serious fighting) about 1500 hussars - about half of the forces available at Kircholm. Most others were just levy serving in daily clothes and having sabre as only weapon. Not to mention lack of any military training.

And when ETW starts, I.E around 1700 there was most certanly no eastern european cavalry that could match the Swedish cav, Polsih included.

Kalle

that I may agree. But it was more due to social changes in Poland rather than due to some war defeats.

Wars of XVII and begining of XVIIIc destroyed medium nobility, who were the most valuable military manpower. As the result quality of polish cav dropped rapidly, within generation from around battle at Vienna till GN War. Hussar regiments were some of the mostly affected, as they always been few, relying on good quality soliders and serving there was not cheap.