Where are these Uirodusios?

[cmacq]

Please, can anyone tell me the Classical source for these Uirodusios? I've looked everywhere I can think of with no luck. I can't even find the root words in Irish/Scots Gaelic. Please, if you could, provide the Classical author, title, chapter, and line?

[Redmeth]

I don't think you'll find an author that says "Legio X fought Uirodusios". AFAIK as I know they're a representation of the greater mass of Celtic warriors that fought naked, not all Celtic Warriors that fought naked = Gaesatae.

Uirodusios from the description = Man-Demons a stylized name I believe to portray their psychological impact of fighting naked + the rage they worked themselves in for the battle.

[cmacq]

all well and good. but were is the classical reference for the word 'Uirodusios.' Or is it just a word like....

[Thaatu]

It's just a made-up term for the unit. I believe there are a few experts of Celtic languages in the research department, who have simply combined "man" and "daemons" (uiro and dusios?). As far as a reference to these naked non-elite warriors, shouldn't be too hard to find, although I don't know about a reference in classical literature. I imagine Gaesatae inspired lots of these wannabees, though they probably didn't form a cohesive unit.

[Anthony]

Uirodusios is representative of low, common nude Celtic combatants, which are mentioned by plenty of authors. Looking at either Irish or Scottish is useless; Gaelic is far, far removed from the language of Gauls. Uiros-/Uiro- is 'man' or 'men', -dusii/-dusios is 'demons'. I know many Gaelic words have etymological Gallic roots, but it's relatively few anymore, if you're using modern Gaelic languages as your base to start looking back. Uiros and Dusios are easy to find in most Gallic lexicon project thoughs, as well as in Proto-Celtic word lists (the word 'Wiro', whence 'Uiro'). Uiro can also mean 'husband'. Dusios did enter into Old Irish, though meaning 'rage', as the word 'da'sacht'.

[Pharnakes]

What are they in the game, though?

[Anthony]

They're just nude, fairly poor quality spearmen with some javelins. Die easily enough. Their only real benefit is they lower enemy morale, but they're not that tough.

[cmacq]

Please what is a Classical or historic source? Or, am I being told, that there is no actual Classical reference, for the use of the word? Anthony, thanks, I was just mining my P and Q Celt word lists?

[CirdanDharix]

In classical texts, I think they'd be referred to as Gaesatae. My guess is that what happened was that the EB team got a bit carried away when making the Gaesatae unit, then realised it wasn't accurate to have all the nekkid dudes who throw spears before melee being uber-uber-elites, and so they made another unit to represent the mass of Gaesatae that fought in battles such as Telamon.

[Foot]

In classical texts, I think they'd be referred to as Gaesatae. My guess is that what happened was that the EB team got a bit carried away when making the Gaesatae unit, then realised it wasn't accurate to have all the nekkid dudes who throw spears before melee being uber-uber-elites, and so they made another unit to represent the mass of Gaesatae that fought in battles such as Telamon.

The Gaesatae that we have ingame never have represented the rank and file naked warrior, and have always been considered rare elites (very rare). In EB2 we will be better able to represent this.

Foot

[Anthony]

Please what is a Classical or historic source? Or, am I being told, that there is no actual Classical reference, for the use of the word? Anthony, thanks, I was just mining my P and Q Celt word lists?

There is no classical use of the word known, but it is done correctly. P and Q word lists don't typically work for finding many Gallic words, as they changed so dramatically, from things like heavy Latin influences (P because the surviving languages come from people once ruled by Romans, Q because of the massive amount of church work done in Ireland when the people converted, and entry into common speech a great deal of Latin words). Get a hold of a Proto-Celtic lexicon maybe. I think there's at least one free online floating about somewhere. There are Gallic word lists as well various places. The soldiers in question, as in, the actual function, appearance, etc., is mentioned in multiple sources, but the name is just a compound word made from Gallic words for man and demon. Very few Celtic soldiers are explicitly named in any record (some are, like Brihentin, which Celts wrote on some votive objects that were buried with apparently noble horsemen, and on inscriptions some places mention them). But, as a matter of necessity, we very often have to cobble names together for units. Most people didn't actually name their classes of soldier outside of loose terms (Neitos is just 'heroes' or 'soldiers', interchangably, and Cingetos just means 'Marchers', meaning soldiers as well; the actual class and armament of the soldiers in question is irrelevant to the name, so, this is what we're left with).

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes to add, this is the case with many Hellenistic units as well: Thureophoroi means people carrying a thureos. Now if you look at the Peltastai... Similarly the word phalangitai doesn't mean much, other than someone fighting in the phalanx. And the word phalanx itself may mean various things (one: a unit formation (similar to the shield wall); two: the collective formation of all heavy infantry units (i.e. a battle line); three: a heavy infantry unit itself).

Not to mention the word 'hoplites' or 'psilos'...

Then we have the entirely conceptual names such as Pheraspides, Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou and Pantodapoi.

[cmacq]

Thus, the term Uirodusios is an EB construct used to denote a specific type of shock troop, described by Polybius as among the Gaesatae formation at Telamon? Providing terms of reference for well defined features or constructs is often done in archaeology. I've coined several myself; for example I used the term 'refugia' to denote a particular type to hill-top defensive site.

Was the term Uirodusios borrowed from the work of a published historian, or was it entirely an EB construct? I believe this Uirodusios construct could be used to correctly differentiate groups of fanatics that were sometimes found within large formations of Gaesatae. From what I've read the Gaesatae were somewhat similar to the surplus Medieval youth recruited to fill out the ranks of the various crusader armies. If the Uirodusios was indeed an EB construct, may I suggest the person responsible write a short paper that fully describes and argues for its usage and then submit it to a proper forum for its publication.

[NeoSpartan]

Thus, the term Uirodusios is an EB construct used to denote a specific type of shock troop, described by Polybius as among the Gaesatae formation at Telamon? Providing terms of reference for well defined features or constructs is often done in archaeology. I've coined several myself; for example I used the term 'refugia' to denote a particular type to hill-top defensive site.

Was the term Uirodusios borrowed from the work of a published historian, or was it entirely an EB construct? I believe this Uirodusios construct could be used to correctly differentiate groups of fanatics that were sometimes found within large formations of Gaesatae. From what I've read the Gaesatae were somewhat similar to the surplus Medieval youth recruited to fill out the ranks of the various crusader armies. If the Uirodusios was indeed an EB construct, may I suggest the person responsible write a short paper that fully describes and argues for its usage and then submit it to a proper forum for its publication.

Are u serious????

I though Anthony and Foot made it pretty clear.

btw... I am not sure your analogy to the medial crusader army is correct. I mean it does NOT "match" what has been posted before, what the Year Events in the EB game say when they mention Gaesatae, and the unit description.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thus, the term Uirodusios is an EB construct used to denote a specific type of shock troop, described by Polybius as among the Gaesatae formation at Telamon? Providing terms of reference for well defined features or constructs is often done in archaeology. I've coined several myself; for example I used the term 'refugia' to denote a particular type to hill-top defensive site.

Was the term Uirodusios borrowed from the work of a published historian, or was it entirely an EB construct? I believe this Uirodusios construct could be used to correctly differentiate groups of fanatics that were sometimes found within large formations of Gaesatae. From what I've read the Gaesatae were somewhat similar to the surplus Medieval youth recruited to fill out the ranks of the various crusader armies. If the Uirodusios was indeed an EB construct, may I suggest the person responsible write a short paper that fully describes and argues for its usage and then submit it to a proper forum for its publication.

Would you rather have a game that tens of thousands of people play or a peer-review submitted article that may or may not reach publication and might actually be carefully read by a couple of hundred people? I'd rather have the historians/artists working on the game honestly, but that's my personal preference. If you are suggesting (I'm not sure) that the mod be "peer-reviewed", you'd be looking at an approximately 2025 deadline for this comprehensive of a work, if it ever saw the light of day at all (and no currently existing group I'm aware of would even agree to do it).

[cmacq]

If you are suggesting (I'm not sure) that the mod be "peer-reviewed",

I think there has been so much hostility and negativity herein, lately, that you may have misunderstood my suggestion. My suggestion was purely professional and had nothing to do with the game. I do belive the above construct may prove useful in an arena other than just this forum. Of course, I assume that a historian had something to do with its development? Are you, Teleklos Archelaou, the author of this construct, or are you speaking for them? If you are, I must say the Uirodusios appear to be a brilliant way of dealing with a somewhat complex and often misunderstood subject.

If not, I assume that those in the know will at some point reply. Furthermore, for all those that desire irrational or heated argument, for its own sake, please seek elsewhere.

[unreal_uk]

I think you guys misunderstood him. He was saying that if the term was constructed by a member of the EB team, then he actually thinks it's a genuinely useful term that could be accepted by the field as a whole to denote exactly what it does in-game.

He's praising it, guys!

[cmacq]

But, as a matter of necessity, we very often have to cobble names together for units. Most people didn't actually name their classes of soldier outside of loose terms (Neitos is just 'heroes' or 'soldiers', interchangably, and Cingetos just means 'Marchers', meaning soldiers as well; the actual class and armament of the soldiers in question is irrelevant to the name, so, this is what we're left with).

Thanks Anthony for your very insightful post.