Unofficial Chancellor eligibility poll

[Privateerkev]

I remember that at one stage I asked for a cap on the amount of legislation, which worked very well. Why don’t we put a hold on OOC CA’s and allow only 4 or 5 IC CA’s per session?

I can certainly see where your coming from. I too have an urge to just work with what we have. But...

1.) We are about to go into a Diet session where we will attempt to codify all of the changes that have taken place in the cataclysm. These will no doubt take the form of CA's.

2.) The nature of the game changes as the Reich gets bigger and more and newer players join. OOC rule changes reflect some of these changes and allow us to keep the game "fresh". That is the big reason for Econ's laundry list of OOC CA's that we all just voted on. We keep evolving to allow more empowerment to players because that is what the majority of the community seems to want to do.

3.) The point has been brought up before that it would be relatively easy for a small number of people to spam pointless CA's each Diet session in order to reach the cap.

So, maybe limiting them per House? Say each House gets 1 or 2 and the Duke decides? But then we are dis-empowering people. Allowing even the common Elector to propose a CA seems like an awesome thing. (I had a lot of fun with Jan's "Mercy CA".) I wouldn't want to take it away. I guess I don't know the answer.

[AussieGiant]

Regarding point 3)

We have a cap already PK.

Each elector has the ability to propose 1 Edict or CA. Then there are house Edicts and CA's which are controlled by the various house’s.

Empowerment is good, but not at the cost of a decentralised dogs breakfast and certainly not to the point where the traditional concept of a feudal system is made redundant.

There needs to be a hierarchy and it needs to function or we are going to find ourselves in an unwieldy system and something that is far removed from the core concept of the game.

And before anyone jumps in and makes a comment about me being a Duke…prior to that I was an elector without an avatar for about three months.

Going up…AND down the feudal hierarchy should be part of the game.

Points 1 and 2)

This Diet session has the potential to clearly demonstrate just how complex this game has become. I predict it is an eye opener as 40 years of no Diet is overcompensated for in a BIG way :-)

We are clearly going to need CA's after the crisis...but again...less is more in my view. Some of the army limitations are an example of something that I believe we can deal with on the AI side. I certainly understand Econ's idea of each elector having some sort of army at his disposal over and above the House armies...this will allow everyone to get into the game far more.

I'm wary of decentralising to the extent that, everyone has an army, everyone has everything...it's a little too much socialism in a system that was not built that way. I managed to have very good time with nothing...zero, just a keyboard and a Diet session....no player levies, no semi half stack garrisons, no ability to rebel IC etc etc.

Play inside with what we have...I don't wont to see the achievement aspect be removed in anyway.

It's a little like watching TV destroy the ability of reading in children.

[Privateerkev]

We have a cap already PK.

Each elector has the ability to propose 1 Edict or CA. Then there are house Edicts and CA's which are controlled by the various house’s.

Empowerment is good, but not at the cost of a decentralised dogs breakfast and certainly not to the point where the traditional concept of a feudal system is made redundant.

There needs to be a hierarchy and it needs to function or we are going to find ourselves in an unwieldy system and something that is far removed from the core concept of the game.

And before anyone jumps in and makes a comment about me being a Duke…prior to that I was an elector without an avatar for about three months.

Going up…AND down the feudal hierarchy should be part of the game.

About the cap, your right we have one. But right now it allows every single player to propose a CA at the Diet. Taking that right away might not fly well.

As for hierarchy, it seems to be changing. The cataclysm offered the perfect chance to uproot the dominant political structure. And people took advantage of it for a few reasons. One, it's fun. Two, the size of the game has gotten to the point where many of us will go through our avatar's whole life without having him reach higher office. Now that might be realistic, since not everyone in real life gets to be Kaiser, but it is seen by many as not fun. Three, many of us, including me, took in game conflict as far as we could and we were looking for ways to gain "satisfaction" for our avatars.

So, I do want there to be hierarchy. We're not playing "Commune 2 Total War". But, when the next game starts being discussed in detail, I will advocate for a more nuanced feudal ladder with more titles and especially more mid-level ranks. We have exactly two mid-level ranks right now. One (prince) is given to you by luck. And the other is King. Stig's idea of "Fursts" was a good one in my opinion and should be seriously looked at next game.

I guess my point is, I hope that a more detailed and nuanced feudal ladder will give people something to do so their not bored if they can't be Duke for the life of their avatar. That would take some of the impetus off of empowerment and it might help people feel more comfortable playing a game that simulates feudalism. This may decrease the amount of rule changes that happen. Or it may not...

I just realized I just wrote a whole post that did not really address your issue of there being too much legislation. I think I'm just brain-dumping. Hopefully my post can be useful as a thought-piece.

[AussieGiant]

I agree that three should be more established mid level positions.

But that is determined on the number of players. I think with the new influx we have the right number to create a nice mid level of nobility.

Problem is...it's based on the number of players in the game.

If we have a mid level at the beginning it would not have been used until recently.

My thought was not to have a mid level nobility created but a series of positions and or titles with a number of creative in game benefits.

Viceroy of the Diet

Chancellor of the Exchequer

The Imperial Marshall

Lord of the Admiralty

etc etc. These titles and positions are in addition to the current noble ranking system and augment the current rules. It's literally a snap on, it doesn't impact any other rules and is given and taken away based on who controls the positions.

There are some Reich wide one's controlled by the Prinz and King. A few handled by the Chancellor for his term in office and others controlled by the Dukes. It's in character with the game and creates some diversity.

And again I'll state, I didn't have any of the mechanisms or "toys" we are thinking up here for new players when I started...it can be fun without all this decentralising of power and those that do have the drive, ambition and urge can progress...there should be a power structure and it shouldn't be too flat but equally not too steep.

Also I'm certainly not suggesting we remove the ability for each person to propose an edict or CA. We need to keep that but bare in mind it could get out of control...again :-)

[Privateerkev]

I agree that three should be more established mid level positions.

But that is determined on the number of players. I think with the new influx we have the right number to create a nice mid level of nobility.

Problem is...it's based on the number of players in the game.

If we have a mid level at the beginning it would not have been used until recently.

My thought was not to have a mid level nobility created but a series of positions and or titles with a number of creative in game benefits.

Viceroy of the Diet

Chancellor of the Exchequer

The Imperial Marshall

Lord of the Admiralty

etc etc. These titles and positions are in addition to the current noble ranking system and augment the current rules. It's literally a snap on, it doesn't impact any other rules and is given and taken away based on who controls the positions.

There are some Reich wide one's controlled by the Prinz and King. A few handled by the Chancellor for his term in office and others controlled by the Dukes. It's in character with the game and creates some diversity.

And again I'll state, I didn't have any of the mechanisms or "toys" we are thinking up here for new players when I started...it can be fun without all this decentralising of power and those that do have the drive, ambition and urge can progress...there should be a power structure and it shouldn't be too flat but equally not too steep.

Also I'm certainly not suggesting we remove the ability for each person to propose an edict or CA. We need to keep that but bare in mind it could get out of control...again :-)

To be fair, what you basically had was patience. Arnold didn't scramble to become Duke. He didn't fight 4 other electors roughly the same age for Leopold's affection. He became Duke because at the time there was no one else for Leopold to give it to. (I am assuming Zirn wasn't around yet) Now the fact that you stuck around for 3 months is commendable. But that took OOC patience, not IC political skill.

In Franconia, things were a lot different. We'd have 5-6 active avatars at one time. Stig's Furst idea was good but too little too late to solve the player boredom problem. If your avatar is in a big House, his chances of being Duke are not good. If your avatar is older than the Duke, then your chances are just about zero unless the Duke dies or the player quits. If your avatar's Duke decides to name a baby as his heir, then your pretty much left with no hope in becoming Duke.

So, mid-level ranks and titles might help this. I really like your title ideas and I think they could work well. It's very much in line with how MTW had titles and I wish M2TW kept them. Giving people titles to strive for, as well as perks and responsibilities from those titles, should help stave off player boredom. That way there will still be a power structure, but more of a chance that an avatar can achieve rank in that structure.

I totally agree that the pyramid shouldn't be too steep or too flat.

[AussieGiant]

To be fair, what you basically had was patience. Arnold didn't scramble to become Duke. He didn't fight 4 other electors roughly the same age for Leopold's affection. He became Duke because at the time there was no one else for Leopold to give it to. (I am assuming Zirn wasn't around yet) Now the fact that you stuck around for 3 months is commendable. But that took OOC patience, not IC political skill.

In Franconia, things were a lot different. We'd have 5-6 active avatars at one time. Stig's Furst idea was good but too little too late to solve the player boredom problem. If your avatar is in a big House, his chances of being Duke are not good. If your avatar is older than the Duke, then your chances are just about zero unless the Duke dies or the player quits. If your avatar's Duke decides to name a baby as his heir, then your pretty much left with no hope in becoming Duke.

So, mid-level ranks and titles might help this. I really like your title ideas and I think they could work well. It's very much in line with how MTW had titles and I wish M2TW kept them. Giving people titles to strive for, as well as perks and responsibilities from those titles, should help stave off player boredom. That way there will still be a power structure, but more of a chance that an avatar can achieve rank in that structure.

I totally agree that the pyramid shouldn't be too steep or too flat.

Small point PK...while I was waiting for an avatar I was playing the game and having a blast as a non avatar elector.

I didn't get bored and there was plenty for me to do for one simply reason. I could vote in the Diet. I didn't strive to be Duke, nor did I have any idea I was going to be a Duke.

Therefore I would have been perfectly happy in another house with an avatar and with far more possibilities that I had in the Austrian house.

Bottom line for me...yes there could be a nice mid nobility made in the form of
positions and titles but not everyone is going to be Duke and I wont be after I die...so it's all swings and round abouts...you go up and you come down…and you know what PK...it might be the case that if I stay in Austria then there wont be a avatar for me...Again...and I could go back to being a avatarless elector...but wait...we have recruitable general's so that's solved now.

We are beginning to bang heads on this so I'll simply state that there is currently more than enough framework to have fun with in my mind.

If we go too far with the concept of having to decentralise the game and the positions then it wont be even vague realistic and will simply be pandering to people's lack of imagination and creativity which is at the core of this game. (A bit harsh but it’s the way I feel).

I was the gregarious "Merchant of Venice" way back then...

...could anyone now consider playing this game without an avatar or a whole bunch of titles and a royal rank and soldiers to kill things with?

[Privateerkev]

If we go too far with the concept of having to decentralise the game and the positions then it wont be even vague realistic and will simply be pandering to people's lack of imagination and creativity which is at the core of this game. (A bit harsh but it’s the way I feel).

I guess I don't see it as pandering. In my opinion, you have an exceptional imagination. I love reading even your non-story IC posts because you make Arnold come alive. Without meaning to seem "sappy", I see you as having a gift. Not all of us have a well developed imagination or the confidence to use it. I would love it if everyone stretched their creative muscles and pushed themselves. But we are all at different stages of the process and we have different comfort levels and confidence in our abilities.

You seem to believe that a smaller "safety net" will encourage us to stretch our imagination muscles. Well, it's hard to argue with that. But I guess I want a larger "safety net" for those of us who don't or can't stretch those muscles. We seem to agree that there should be built in mechanisms for avatars to achieve things, but we may differ on the type and number.

Figuring out the exact type or number could probably wait so I'll hold off unless you want to talk about it.