Oxford Anti-Nazi protests

[lancelot]

Was watching the BBC news last night re- the students at oxford uni protesting at allowing the BNP leader and a alleged anti-holocaust denier the platform to speak- on free speech issue not political canvassing apparently.

So aside from the supreme irony of the anti-nazi supporters opposing free speech when it suits them and physically breaking into the lecture hall (requiring police to remove them), what do people think about this issue?

My view- This protest (aside from the aforementioned hypocrisy) is at base level a complete and utter waste of time that is a) vilifying the 'right wing' as evil, racist blah blah blah- ironically enough before they have made any speech!

I certainly feel that there is a definite right wing = bad, left wing = good mentality present in the popular national psyche. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...hello?? but I digress.

Back on topic- so as I was saying- complete waste of time... last big election the BNP got less than -thats- less than 1% of the popular vote. Like the BNP or not, Nick Griffin could tour the country singing the Horst Wessel Song for the next 100 years and it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference, so why do people get so bent out of shape about these things? Granted I have zero time for holocaust denial but the BNP is such a non-entity that I really fail to see what all the fuss is about.

If these supposed 'educated' Oxford students actually took a look at a history book they might realise that even back in the 1930s the original British Union of Fascists were a party that did not do that well at all- and this was a period in which fascism was a big deal- hence why I dont see what the fuss is!

And what really bothers me is that this country has suffered an Islamist terrorist attack, god knows how many more attempted terrorist attacks and people who hold placards calling for violence against those who insult Islam...so where are all these protesters then?

Im not saying people should not be aware of the dangers of Nazism- far from it but a little perspective on current affairs would not go amiss...some political protest about issues that have, and most likely will have again such serious implications for this country would be a lot better use of these student's time.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Opinions?

[Tribesman]

what do people think about this issue?

I think that they could have got someone better to speak , the union has a history of inviting contravertial speakers to debates , it makes for an interesting debate , but why did they bother with these two non-entities , surely they could have done better than dragging in a rather stupid racist gobshite and a thoroughly de-bunked "historian" .

[Rhyfelwyr]

Students will protest about anything even if they no nothing about the matter. In one debate at my Uni's forums someone was arguing the IRA are not a terrorist organisation!

Still I'm glad to see that action is being taken against the BNP, they are not at all reasonable. It is hypocritical for people who wish to remove others rights to complain about their own being breached.

Also the extreme left is villified just the same as the extreme right, I don't see many people standing up for Stalin or Pol Pot.

[Tribesman]

In one debate at my Uni's forums someone was arguing the IRA are not a terrorist organisation!

Well there is a rather elderly poster on this forum who also made that claim , though he did try to limit it after a while to one specific IRA , before he eventually had to drop that aswell , it all falls down to the old "what is a terrorist ?" question, and he fell by his own definition .

[Fragony]

Don't like nazi's but 'anti-facists' are much worse. Hitler was a leftie simple as that, and nazi's are racist socialists with a razor.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I certainly feel that there is a definite right wing = bad, left wing = good mentality present in the popular national psyche. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...hello?? but I digress.

...

And what really bothers me is that this country has suffered an Islamist terrorist attack, god knows how many more attempted terrorist attacks and people who hold placards calling for violence against those who insult Islam...so where are all these protesters then?

They're hypocrites. Filthy hypocrites, and you outlined the reason. Right wing bad, left wing good. And the big thing on the left is multiculturalism, and celebration of non-Christian religions and non-western cultures (since they dominated Europe and America and represent the old, evil conservative values, the enemy of progressive liberal ideals).

CR

[IrishArmenian]

Financial conservatives and liberals have both been incredibly evil.
Socially, not so much, but I think we're talking financials. Anyway, I think it is stupid to call in a facist for a Free Speech issue for two reasons: never get the extremes to represent everyone and why debate free speech? Don't you already have it?
I am an Armenian Apostolic Christian and I believe people should be free to worship whatever they want. Why? I am to respect the beliefs of others no matter how much I may disagree with them--which is sometimes a bit challenging. Also, the Soviet Union saw to it that many religious monuments/buildings/etc were destroyed, presenting CR's distopia, only that instead of multiculturalism--isn't this like America, where multiple ethnicities live side by side?--it tried to create one culture. That was terrible and I shall never lose my culture to some ignoramus who wants me to talk like him, pray like him and live like him.

[HoreTore]

They're hypocrites. Filthy hypocrites, and you outlined the reason. Right wing bad, left wing good. And the big thing on the left is multiculturalism, and celebration of non-Christian religions and non-western cultures (since they dominated Europe and America and represent the old, evil conservative values, the enemy of progressive liberal ideals).

CR

Liberals are right-wing. Djeez, get your labels right CR

[Adrian II]

I must be getting old because I find this whole thread totally predictable and boring. Can anyone knowledgeable please inform me why the Oxford Union would invite two disreputable gentlemen to discuss the issue of free speech? Dont give me leftie or student stereotypes, I can find those in our own tabloid press when I need them thank you very much. This is surely a wider issue. After all it's students who invited Irving and Griffin, and it's a Tory (shadow defense secretary Julian Lewis) who resigned from the Union over the Irving/Griffin debate.

Cut the crap and say something smart, anyone? I'm in a foul mood this morning, I haven't had my bucket of coffee yet, and I have a feeling this is just going to be one of those days.
Humour me.

[Fragony]

Dont give me leftie or student stereotypes, I can find those in our own tabloid press when I need them thank you very much.

Recommend me some?

[macsen rufus]

say something smart, anyone?

I'm really not sure there is anything smart to say about these two reprobates, unles the OU were just trying to underline Voltaire's point about abhorring what someone says, yet defending to the death his right to say it.

It was either a publicity stunt from the outset, or someone was doing some meta-debating. Who better, after all, to use to highlight issues of freedom of speech than a couple of people whose opinions 99.99% of the population find utterly repellant? There's little point debating free speech if everyone is all warm and cuddly and not saying anything controversial, it's EASY to grant freedom of speech to people you agree with. So easy that it's meaningless as a right. Any fundamental rights (which I believe freedom of speech should be) has to be tested on HARD cases.

Personally I tend towards reciprocation as a test - any "right" or freedom I claim, I must also grant to everyone else. If I'm uneasy doing that, then I need to examine my own claim.

[HoreTore]

To say that they should not be allowed to speak is ridiculous.

However, saying that we should listen is equally ridiculous...

[ICantSpellDawg]

To say that they should not be allowed to speak is ridiculous.

However, saying that we should listen is equally ridiculous...

correct. WWII revisionism is not a crime in the UK. Is belittling the holocaust?

[Vladimir]

I think this post applies here as well:

It's because they're cowards.

It's normal and healthy to feel fear. It's how you react to it which makes you brave or a coward. That's why I can't stand the political Left.

Why take on the elephant in the room when it's much easier to pick on the little old man?

[KukriKhan]

Here's the Link to the BBC story about the debate and protests, briefly covering the pro- and con- positions.

The Oxford Union says it is important to give people of all views a platform.

"...It's not an issue of free speech to offer someone a privileged platform from a prestige organisation."

[JR-]

most youthful students are just dieing for a cause to give meaning to their empty and vacuous lives, it's traditional, and most of them grow out of it in a decade or so.

still, no reason to put blinkers on debate.

[Meneldil]

Back on topic- so as I was saying- complete waste of time... last big election the BNP got less than -thats- less than 1% of the popular vote. Like the BNP or not, Nick Griffin could tour the country singing the Horst Wessel Song for the next 100 years and it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference, so why do people get so bent out of shape about these things? Granted I have zero time for holocaust denial but the BNP is such a non-entity that I really fail to see what all the fuss is about.

First off all, the fact a party get little to no vote doesn't mean it has no weight.
The far right was almost inexistant politically in France in the 30's. Yet in 1940 they were given the keys of the country.

Furthermore, it's weight doesn't really mean anything. Even if the BNP got only 0.00000000000001%, it wouldn't make it less racist.

Right wing bad, left wing good. And the big thing on the left is multiculturalism, and celebration of non-Christian religions and non-western cultures (since they dominated Europe and America and represent the old, evil conservative values, the enemy of progressive liberal ideals).

Wut ? I didn't know that Left = multiculturalism. It would make France a quite right-winged country, as we seriously hate multiculturalism. Oh, and we have this "Never forget the Lights and the French Revolution" thing. Probably some old and evil conservative values.

[Fragony]

Wut ? I didn't know that Left = multiculturalism. It would make France a quite right-winged country, as we seriously hate multiculturalism. Oh, and we have this "Never forget the Lights and the French Revolution" thing. Probably some old and evil conservative values.

Multiculturalism isn't a thing the people want after all, it's just opium for the elite. Yeah left is blind multiculturism, a new religion, and raising taxes to support their hobby is their policy.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Liberals are right-wing. Djeez, get your labels right CR

Not in the US. Perhaps you should try to expand your worldview a bit.

I didn't know that Left = multiculturalism. It would make France a quite right-winged country, as we seriously hate multiculturalism.

In that respect only, maybe.

@Adrian - I can only assume Oxford was inspired by Columbia's hosting Imadinnerjacket for a speech. Except the Pres of Iran is a big figure worldwide, and someone to listen to (even if not one to invite to your university) in a know what the nutjob representing Iran thinks kind of way.

It strikes me that the people Oxford is having, though, are really just pathetic, small potatoes individuals, who have no impact on the world.

As for representing all views, I wonder how many reasonable conservative people they've invited to speak. Here in the US you get shouted down more at universities if you're spouting conservative viewpoints than if you're the pres of a murderous regime.

CR

[Fragony]

Not in the US. Perhaps you should try to expand your worldview a bit.

They are here, but european liberalism is pretty close to america mercentalism. Can't really compare european and american liberalism, completily different.

[lancelot]

First off all, the fact a party get little to no vote doesn't mean it has no weight.
The far right was almost inexistant politically in France in the 30's. Yet in 1940 they were given the keys of the country.

That is a really bad analogy- the Far right getting the keys to the country had something to do with Nazi Germany methinks...and besides it got the keys to part of the country.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Liberals are right-wing. Djeez, get your labels right CR

Not sure about continental Europe but the Liberal Democracts are left-leaning here in the UK, more left-wing than the Labour Party anyway.

Also I do not believe that the left hates everything western and Christian. For a start, you would hardly call the west conservative compared to fundamentalists elsewhere, the west has been the forefront of liberalism. And left-wing ideas were established in the west, in Christian countries, often by practicing Christian people, Marx's plan just got a little bit de-railed with events in Russia and China etc.

Some students, mostly from well enough off families, hardly represent the left-wing movement. They would argue any cause if they thought it made them revolutionaries.

[HoreTore]

Not in the US. Perhaps you should try to expand your worldview a bit.

Nah, just because you don't hear about them doesn't mean you don't have socialists in your country

But liberal means capitalist, there's no way I'm going to accept that "leftie" means "capitalist". Lefties are anti-capitalist.

@Caledonrogjnilg: That would be social liberals, the 'left' and 'right' terms refer to economics.

And I hope you're not referring to Marx' christian commie buddies btw... They were so few in number that they're not worth bothering with... The commies were atheists.

Multiculturalism isn't a thing the people want after all, it's just opium for the elite.

Huh, I'm "elite"? Nice!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Gee, Horetore, perhaps you shouldn't be so imperialistic about forcing your culture and worldview on other peoples.

CR
(Yes, I know leftist is technically more correct, but it also means the same thing as liberal here in the US. Interesting factoid; libera - leftists here in the US now insist on being called progressives, since they've ruined the word liberal for themselves. Conservatives are still fine with being called conservatives. Maybe something to do with which view is closer to what America was founded on. )

[Fragony]

Huh, I'm "elite"? Nice!

You come from a white family, somewhere between middle and upper class, your parents are a on the moderate right or possibly moderate left, and you are a student, probaby social scienes. Am I right so far?

[HoreTore]

You come from a white family, somewhere between middle and upper class, your parents are a on the moderate right or possibly moderate left, and you are a student, probaby social scienes. Am I right so far?

Completely wrong, fortunately

White family, yes, but definitely working class. My mother is a chef and my father is a mechanic/farmer/lumberjack. My mother is a socialist, my father is....well, he thinks they're all idiots, but probably somewhere around Labour.

As for myself, I'm currently working as a security guard. I'll go back to school sometime though, I'll probably just get a bachelor degree in whatever and see where it goes.

[Vladimir]

Nah, just because you don't hear about them doesn't mean you don't have socialists in your country

But liberal means capitalist, there's no way I'm going to accept that "leftie" means "capitalist". Lefties are anti-capitalist.

@Caledonrogjnilg: That would be social liberals, the 'left' and 'right' terms refer to economics.

And I hope you're not referring to Marx' christian commie buddies btw... They were so few in number that they're not worth bothering with... The commies were atheists.

I know how it works but whenever one contrasts American and European political labels, I always imagine a bird trying to fly forward and backwards at the same time. It makes me dizzy.

[HoreTore]

I know how it works but whenever one contrasts American and European political labels, I always imagine a bird trying to fly forward and backwards at the same time. It makes me dizzy.

Well I'll give you a nice way to tell them apart:

Those middle-aged white guys in a suit belong on the right, while the long-haired and smelly stoned guy living in your dumpster is a leftie.

[Vladimir]

Well I'll give you a nice way to tell them apart:

Those middle-aged white guys in a suit belong on the right, while the long-haired and smelly stoned guy living in your dumpster is a leftie.

Thanks but I've seen too many homeless guys wearing (what used to be) business suits.

[HoreTore]

Thanks but I've seen too many homeless guys wearing (what used to be) business suits.

Yes, that would be lefties trying to put their ideas into practice, resulting in them switching their house for a nice dumpster