Manipulating BattleChivalry and BattleDread

[reichtfeld]

After glancing at the trait triggers for the Retrofit Mod, it seems that there's a bit of a dilemma with BattleChivalry and BattleDread.

;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3_Dread_fighting
WhenToTest PostBattle

Condition GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 8
and not Trait BattleChivalry > 0

Affects BattleDread 1 Chance 50
Affects Bloodthirsty 1 Chance 10

;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3_Chivalry_fighting
WhenToTest PostBattle

Condition GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 8
and not Trait BattleDread > 0

Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 50

;------------------------------------------

A "neutral" general without chivalry or dread gets over 8 kills in a battle and he has a 50/50 shot of gaining either trait. Is there a way to start a character on the desired path without resorting to mods, cheats, or having to quicksave and auto-calc an easy battle until you get the desired result?

I've gotten a bit bored with the battles and want to try and focus more on the RPG aspect of managing my family tree, but this is a bit of a stumbling block for me. I'd greatly appreciate any help on the matter.

[ReiseReise]

If you general is neutral and goes on a killing spree, he might be seen as a hero or villian. There are two possibilities and I'm not sure which one happens

Option 1) Effects of each trigger are applied as each is checked, in this case dread trigger checks first, 50% chance of getting it.
Chiv trigger checks second, if the 50% above came TRUE, he cannot get chiv because BattleDread>0.
So overall, he has 50% BattleDread, 25% BattleChiv, 25% nothing

Option 2) All triggers are checked before the effects are applied. In this case there are 4 equally likely outcomes: only one hits, only the other hits, both hit and cancel out, or neither hits. So he has 25% BattleDread, 25% Battle Chivalry, 50% nothing (2 outcomes have the same effect).

Of course the way to avoid all this confusion is to get him some BattleDread or BattleChivalry before you send him on a killing spree. Then only one trigger will apply and he will have a 50% chance of furthering his desired path. I'm sure you can find the other BattleChivalry/Dread triggers.

[Jason X]

i haven't yet, but i'm going to try the "send general off on their own against rebels" initiation - that way he's outnumbered and will (hopefully) get BattleChiv

[reichtfeld]

Of course the way to avoid all this confusion is to get him some BattleDread or BattleChivalry before you send him on a killing spree. Then only one trigger will apply and he will have a 50% chance of furthering his desired path. I'm sure you can find the other BattleChivalry/Dread triggers.

Unfortunately, the BattleChivalry triggers are rather lacking. Here is the only 100% trigger for it:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry1_defensivewin
WhenToTest PostBattle

Condition not WasAttacker
and IsGeneral
and BattleOdds < 0.8
and GeneralFoughtInCombat
and not Trait BattleDread > 0

Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------

You've got to force someone to attack you, have odds less than 0.8, and your general has to fight but can't kill over 8 people or risk getting one of the other dread triggers. I'm amazed there's no mention in there of needing a full moon or a unicorn horn. Sheesh.

[ReiseReise]

Also

66% chance for winning with odds <.5, probably easiest to get defending a siege, just make sure he fights.

33% for catholic or orthodox fighting muslims, win or lose.

66% for muslims fighting catholics (but not orthodox), win or lose.

and finally the one I would love to see actually happen...
odds <.95
get an average victory or better by killing <20% of the enemy.
How you are supposed to rout them with odds in their favor (so you can't outnumber them and flank/scare them away) and without any of them dying is beyond me. Maybe if you had your general and 2-3 peasants, and they had about 7 units of peasants, the odds might be equal and you could hold all the peasants while the general quickly flanked them and half-charged their captain a couple times to hopefully kill the captain without annihilating the entire unit. You would also have to make sure you killed 19% of them or else you might just get a Close Victory instead of Average Victory.

[reichtfeld]

All those triggers are horribly inconvenient when you consider the fact that in any of those battles you've got a 50% chance to gain dread the second that your general gets 9 kills or more. Good luck winning any fight with odds less than 0.5 when your general has his hands tied like that, because the general's bodyguard is weighted very heavily in the battle odds (and rightfully so).

The real silly thing is that gaining one point of dread or chivalry makes you immune to triggers that gain the opposing trait. The only way to lose BattleDread or BattleChivalry are through the triggers that remove both of them for being a coward in battle, which isn't a very convenient way to "reset" your general and try for the other alignment. It's just mindboggling to me how the same triggers will raise either dread or chivalry and it's just a crapshoot on what you get first, which will become self perpetuating in all future battles.

Is the only solution to cheat or mod?

[Philbert]

A Crusade will give you chivalry no matter how dreadful you are (found that out in practice) so there are situations where it can be reversed.

[ReiseReise]

@reichtfeld

It makes sense to me. It is all about public perception, just like politicians of our modern day. Ours battle rather ineffectually in the halls of government, theirs battled for real. If a man kills many many enemies he will either be seen as a hero or a butcher, depending on which news agency gets ahold of the story first.