The netherlands?

[Upxl]

It’s been a while since the last time and I wasn’t really planning to post again any time soon but scrolling through the org I noticed something pretty disturbing to me.

Clearly, Bijo needed to vent out his frustrations regarding his home country and the growing intolerance towards foreigners in it.
With his heart on his tongue he wrote about a phenomenon that in my view surely is a rising problem and deserves at the very least some of our attention.

2 things I believe he was wrong in where: attacking the US and assuming it’s an isolated issue that occurs only in the Netherlands when it is ofcours more of a universal problem.
Racism and intolerance towards our fellow man is rising in not only in Netherlands but Europe, America, Asia,… as well.
Though I must say that as his neighbour I’ve seen his tolerant and open-minded society in a few years time chance dramatically, focusing and pointing fingers in wrong directions.

Nonetheless it takes guts and a open minded view to write not only on a sure enough real issue but also criticising your own native country.

The reply’s he received where nothing less then shocking to me.
They where an immediate attack towards him and very much beside the point.
If this is what you get for speaking your mind then there is something very wrong going on inhere.

Ironic, he wrote about his disgust towards intolerance and that’s exactly what he got.

[KukriKhan]

Hello Upxl:

That thread was closed not for its "I hate (this) about my country" content, but for its rapidly escalating resort to profanities and vulgarities, masked by ****'s or not.

Left open for even more passionate discussion, I predicted that posters would venture into language that would garner them official warnings/sanctions.

I hoped to avoid that. So I preemptively closed it, secure in the knowledge that such a topic was sure to rise again soon - all of us find things about our countries distasteful - using more civil language.

I point to your post as an example.

[Fragony]

Typical victim of the dutch educational system, all leftist myths. We are a tolerant culture, that is why we and intolerant cultures don't mix that well. Ask anyone but.

[Upxl]

KukriKhan: Closing that topic is something that indeed had to be done.
This was not the reason i got so irritated.

Fragony, with al respect but don't you see something wrong in your sentence?
No contradiction of any kind?

I'll ignore the leftists remark.
This isn't about politics.

I don't want to start another argument on the subject.
But there was something in the post of Bijo that made a lot of sense.

[Fragony]

No contradiction of any kind?

Of course, but let's call a spade a spade. First of all, none of what Bijo said is actually true, just the typical repeating what was taught to him at school, word by word. There is no intolerance here, only for intolerance. Or do you think we just picked one particulr group to channel our nehative energy upon? On the group that happens to be a pain in the butt everywhere no matter what country you are?

[Bijo]

Thanks for your thread, Upxl. I have only just glanced through the old one and I see I can now filter out some more people to put onto my black list

But anyway, I'm used to people opposing me all the time. Whenever I raise a serious issue and tell it to someone in their face or not even directly, they can't handle it and they will do everything in their power to oppose me and try to quickly shut me up or they will think seriously, grasp the point, and suffer. They'll have to KILL me first and you know.... I don't even fear death! But I bet they fear killing.

You know, it's just that people don't really care, heheheh. If I had to draw a picture to describe man, it would be one showing a human wearing black blinders while carrying a stick for the blind, and a smile on the face. Not only would it be universal, but also about this... this..... "country" *spits on the floor*

By the way, your prediction would seem in order, Kukri. I do not know if it would occur exactly like you'd think, but the probability was there so the prevention is a good one.


Now, all you who are Dutch or not Dutch, commence disliking the Netherlands. Now! >:)

[Upxl]

anyway, I'm used to people opposing me all the time. Whenever I raise a serious issue and tell it to someone in their face or not even directly, they can't handle it and they will do everything in their power to oppose me and try to quickly shut me up or they will think seriously, grasp the point, and suffer. They'll have to KILL me first and you know.... I don't even fear death! But I bet they fear killing

You know, it's just that people don't really care, heheheh. If I had to draw a picture to describe man, it would be one showing a human wearing black blinders while carrying a stick for the blind, and a smile on the face. Not only would it be universal, but also about this... this..... "country" *spits on the floor*

, just the typical repeating what was taught to him at school, word by word

Don’t know that much about the Dutch school system but,...wauw :)

No reason to hate Nederland, Bijo, it’s still a fine country, besides, we are all a little bit confused.
Till it reaches a certain height, then we go of and blow each other’s brains out.
It’s how we mankind play.

[Papewaio]

Sorry can't hate it. Had neighbours when I was a kid from the Netherlands (as his mum would say Holland is not the Netherlands)and since then I have a liking for the cheese. And I love Moccona as far as instant coffee goes. Then there is Tosa Inu.

So 3 very good reasons for starters.

Not to mention the masters of painting. The help in the name of New Zealand. And a country that can take on mother nature and win... all even better reasons to like the country of Netherlands.

[Geoffrey S]

Not to mention the masters of painting. The help in the name of New Zealand. And a country that can take on mother nature and win... all even better reasons to like the country of Netherlands.

Win... at best, right now it's a draw, and not one which will last a huge amount of time without some more effort...

[Odin]

The reply’s he received where nothing less then shocking to me.
They where an immediate attack towards him and very much beside the point.
If this is what you get for speaking your mind then there is something very wrong going on inhere.

Well I like Bijo I think a lot of his stuff is funny, I dont even mind the anti americanism from time to time. The problem is Upxl, the problem here is its an internet forum that allows various point of views with minimal consitancy as to moderation (with the exception of swearing).

That breeds the atmosphere that allows posters like myself, bijo and a slew of others to post monuments to crap hidden in prose. Then when the crap is revealed by another posters reply it turns into even smellier crap.

And of course if it gets to hot in topic there are the famous cop outs of "well I dont really care anyway" or the "its an web site not the end of the world" statements that make it even smellier crap

So basically you just have a group of people on a small message board in cyberspace posting crap because of some sense of self importance. Or maybe you get one or two who actually believe there points of view will change the minds of the reader.

Mainly though its become a venue of little substance, noble attempts to take shots in as subtle ways as possible to skirt unformalized rule applications and the one upsmanship bred by the anonimity of the web.

In short its crap. Just enjoy a lot of times it can be very entertaining, Bijo is one of the true commedic genius's we have here.

[Husar]

(as his mum would say Holland is not the Netherlands)

My dad also says that.

At Bijo, Odin: Bollox.

And I don't really care about the Netherlands anyway.

[El Diablo]

I like the Dutch people and to be honest the country.

I do feel ashamed that my experiance of the Netherlands was a trip to Amsterdam with my sister and girlfriend. However the people there were very very friendly and spoke far better English than ANYWHERE in London . I know it is not representative of the country in the same way that London is not England nor the UK but I still enjoyed it there.

Netherlands gets the big friendly tick from me.

No point getting down on where you live mate because there is no garden of peace and love where all are treated equally ANYWHERE in the world and there is always mistrust and suspicion whenever diffent people get together.

I live in what many may consider a tolerant and friendly country (new Zealand) and yet I do not feel good about parts of our history. There are issues with the native Maori people that need to be addressed (and thankfully are albeit slowly) and our support - through sporting means of - South Africas aparteit system in the 1980's is simply deplorable.

I did neither of these and so do I feel the guilt about them? - maybe partially but with your words on an intolerant Dutch society seem overtly harsh. You should not tar all with such words. If you do the best that you can then that should be enough - you just have to hope that others do their share.

[Vladimir]

"This country is a piece of crap internationally and it seems to be following the USA more or less (regarding style, culture, and politics), as if it's some kind of extension of the USA in Westen Europe."

Was this the offending line about the United States? Far from being offensive, it's mildly amusing.

Ending with: "Dutch cuisine is rubbish " is kind of funny. I thought his post was entertaining because it was an over the top rant. Sometimes you just need to vent.

[Papewaio]

our support - through sporting means of - South Africas aparteit system in the 1980's is simply deplorable.

Considering the flour bombings (literal), riots and general ill will towards the tours I don't think New Zealanders were behind the idea. Look how well supported soccer became during that period... it was a mass of heretical behaviour. ... no more praying at the church of rugby but to that of the temple of soccer.

[HoreTore]

no more praying at the church of rugby but to that of the temple of soccer.

As you should, you heretics. Don't make me go crusading on your butt.

[Fragony]

Don’t know that much about the Dutch school system but,...wauw :)

Could as well call 'maatschappijleer' socialism, complete with telling them who to vote for, and geschiedenis 'revisionism'. Ask a dutch scholar why the cold war ended for exmple, why did it end Bijo? Dutch scholar system is as red as it can be.

Kinda surprised Bijo feels he is taking the hard road here, he is talking the fashionable talk. Yeah that annoys me, especially when none of it is true.

[HoreTore]

Of course, Fragony, the truth couldn't be that you're wrong... That would be freaky...

[Geoffrey S]

Of course, Fragony, the truth couldn't be that you're wrong... That would be freaky...

I'm just going to have to butt in and say that the rather leftwing slant in the Dutch education system isn't just in the imagination of Fragony; maybe things have changed, but a couple of years ago before I switched to a more technical subject set the bias was quite clearly visible in Maatschapijleer (don't know an English word for that one), Economics, Geography and History. Make of it what you will.

[HoreTore]

What possible bias could you have had in geography?

[Fragony]

What possible bias could you have had in geography?

How about immigration, poor country's poor baby's, somebody feed them shelter them love them.

Thanks Geofry_S, you see Horetore it is hard to wrong when you are right.

[HoreTore]

you see Horetore it is hard to wrong when you are right.

That's what everyone says, Fragony...

But hey, if the problem is that the school is biased in your opinion, isn't the answer to become a teacher? No need to bitch when you can solve instead, right?

[Fragony]

That's what everyone says, Fragony...

But hey, if the problem is that the school is biased in your opinion, isn't the answer to become a teacher? No need to bitch when you can solve instead, right?

To teach the same material? As if they would hire me, everywhere the same, newspapers, public television, education, justice department, once these red rats are settled they keep everything else out.

[ICantSpellDawg]

This forum is great. More socially and globally conscious members than anywhere I've visited on the internet. Very little tripe spewed on these pages.

Are you reading fully "moderated" comments on the BBC? I think our comments, more long winded and less ignorant and insulting, are light years beyond those. PLUS we are mostly kids! I'm 24, but I've been on since 2002. For all intents and purposes, I'm still a kid.

We love playing with e-toy soldiers! This puts us in a different realm from most kids/childish adults. I think that we are smarter and more insightful than most. So much so that it dwarfs the instances of wretchedness.

Our ability to communicate with people from other countries without cursing and threatening is a monument to internet relations if ever I've seen one.

I learn from this forum. From Fragony talking about his opinions and concerns in the Netherlands to Tribesman telling me that most Americans are shortsighted in their view of the world. We can even learn why "better Red than Fed" people like JAG think Hugo Chavez is more successful than he is a danger to regional stability.

As good a learning experience as a class in college. Use your mind to sift through the BS

[Andres]

Could as well call 'maatschappijleer' socialism, complete with telling them who to vote for, and geschiedenis 'revisionism'. Ask a dutch scholar why the cold war ended for exmple, why did it end Bijo? Dutch scholar system is as red as it can be.

Kinda surprised Bijo feels he is taking the hard road here, he is talking the fashionable talk. Yeah that annoys me, especially when none of it is true.

I'm just going to have to butt in and say that the rather leftwing slant in the Dutch education system isn't just in the imagination of Fragony; maybe things have changed, but a couple of years ago before I switched to a more technical subject set the bias was quite clearly visible in Maatschapijleer (don't know an English word for that one), Economics, Geography and History. Make of it what you will.

Unless Fragony and Geoffrey S wrote those posts while doing their time in jail because of disagreement with the viewpoints of the current Dutch regime, it seems like the Dutch Communist Indoctrination Machine is far from perfect...

[Vladimir]

This forum is great. More socially and globally conscious members than anywhere I've visited on the internet. Very little tripe spewed on these pages.

Are you reading fully "moderated" comments on the BBC? I think our comments, more long winded and less ignorant and insulting, are light years beyond those. PLUS we are mostly kids! I'm 24, but I've been on since 2002. For all intents and purposes, I'm still a kid.

We love playing with e-toy soldiers! This puts us in a different realm from most kids/childish adults. I think that we are smarter and more insightful than most. So much so that it dwarfs the instances of wretchedness.

Our ability to communicate with people from other countries without cursing and threatening is a monument to internet relations if ever I've seen one.

I learn from this forum. From Fragony talking about his opinions and concerns in the Netherlands to Tribesman telling me that Americans are shortsighted from the view of modern Irish youths. We can even learn why "better Red than Fed" people like JAG think Hugo Chavez is more successful than he is a danger to regional stability.

As good a learning experience as a class in college. Use your mind to sift through the BS

Seconded. That's why I can't stay away.

Plus: We have Tosa!

[Fragony]

Unless Fragony and Geoffrey S wrote those posts while doing their time in jail because of disagreement with the viewpoints of the current Dutch regime, it seems like the Dutch Communist Indoctrination Machine is far from perfect...

Hey we are on average the most intelligent people of europe, can't fool us. Well most of us

And everything tuffstuff said

[Dutch_guy]

Could as well call 'maatschappijleer' socialism, complete with telling them who to vote for, and geschiedenis 'revisionism'. Ask a dutch scholar why the cold war ended for exmple, why did it end Bijo? Dutch scholar system is as red as it can be.

Never experienced 'Maatschappijleer' that way. Wouldn't consider it biased either, let alone a socialist propaganda tool.

Why would you call History 'revisionism', and how would a Dutch scholar answer your question - according to you ?

[Geoffrey S]

Unless Fragony and Geoffrey S wrote those posts while doing their time in jail because of disagreement with the viewpoints of the current Dutch regime, it seems like the Dutch Communist Indoctrination Machine is far from perfect...

Taking things a bit far. All I'm saying is that there is a clear leftist slant in the education system. It's probably more caused by the type of people who end up teaching in high schools than any malicious intent, but whatever the intent it does have an effect on education.

[Fragony]

Never experienced 'Maatschappijleer' that way. Wouldn't consider it biased either, let alone a socialist propaganda tool.

Why would you call History 'revisionism', and how would a Dutch scholar answer your question - according to you ?

Just the on 'maatschappijleer for now' article for now, had a great link some examples, especially when it comes to history, posted it before but have a hard time finding it.

http://www.vrijspreker.nl/vs/index.php?itemid=4477&

^--not what I am looking for

http://www.vrijspreker.nl/vs/index.php?itemid=4477&

^--this is

gah wrong link, fixed it.

Can't find the ones on national politics, it's a shame, but this should be enough to draw a conclusion.

[Andres]

Can any of our Dutch (ex-)scholars explain what this subject "maatschappijleer" really is about? Can you give us some sort of description?