Help! My lands are going monochrome!

[mir]

Hey all, I'm sure everyone's had this happen to them before...

One moment your peasants/peons/slaves are happily (except for the slaves) working in the fields when some massive army turns up and they're not happy at all! But instead of attacking anyone, they decide to take over the poor little huts the peasants have built and proceed to ravage the land... They then decide to camp down and have a big rave...

On the World Map, this appears as blackened areas (black, dark grey and white) and I believe the land's productivity takes a dive (but not tested yet)!

Once I chase away these annoying and destructive fools, how do I restore my land to the colour it was before?

Can anyone suggest a solution please?

[phonicsmonkey]

Time heals all wounds

[Flavius Merobaudes]

The income of the settlement will decrease because of devastation. You can see it in the settlement details scroll.
The lands will take a long time to be restored. 10, maybe 20 turns depending on the area affected. Larger enemy armies destroy more crops in a larger radius because they eat more.

[igor]

I'm not sure if larger armies destroy more.

What I'm sure about. Devastation is only caused by enemy army (all rebels are considered enemy). If in the second turn after respawning you don't kill the rebels, devastation starts. The same naturally holds for the enemy army, if stands immobile on your lands.

The adjacent tiles are devastated, the longer enemy stays put the bigger devastation tiles gets. If an enemy army stands on their teritory, but the adjacent tile is your teritory, you'll get devastation on your bordering tiles.

If you don't have farm upgrades (the basic one included), you get no devastation, even if the enemy army is parked on your land for century. So basically I don't build farm upgrades on my border provinces, until I'm completely sure I'm able to destroy any arriving or spawning stack, and I build upgrades in my inner provinces when I'm sure I can destroy in time any rebels with my garrison.

There is a bug though. Even if you don't have farm upgrades, but the adjacent province has it, and the enemy stands on the adjacent province on the tile that borders your tile, you'll get the devastation. The typical example is: Valencia is still rebel, it has no upgrades, stupid Spanish army is standing in Toledo province on the tile that borders a Valencian tile, the Spanish don't move that meagre army and when they build first farm upgrade in Toledo, voila there's devastation in Valencia. When I was Moors, I had to wait some 30 turns to clear that devestation, which I inherited when I later occupied Valencia.

What's even worse is idiotic AI behavior. I've seen many times a small rebel army which AI ignored, even though it had the resources and man power to EASILY win the battle, so at the end when you take such a province you inherit this devastation.

[ReiseReise]

Not building farms because you are afraid of devastation is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Thinking about putting a new roof on your house? You better not, it might be damaged in a storm. Want a new car? There haven't been any crash-proof ones invented yet so why bother.
In most regions, building farms is much more profitable than trade buildings. The income bonus alone far far far outweighs the mere chance that an army might park in the territory and give devastation. Not to mention faster population growth = more taxes, faster wall upgrades, better buildings available to create even more income etc etc.
An interesting question: Since regions without farms cannot get devastation (I did not know that!), does the devastation just take away the extra farm income, or can it be more than that? Whatever the answer, I still would not base my economic building choices on whether or not a rebel stack will appear.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

You're right Reise. It would be difficult to set up an experiment for this, but I don't think one is necessary. I seriously doubt that devastation will ever reach a value even close to farming income, or if so then only in very rare cases.
Farms are usually my second building after dirt roads and should probably be the first one when thinking it over.

[DVX BELLORVM]

The devastation doesn't concern me at all, as I've never seen it much higher than 100 FL. You'll be losing much more income if an army stands on a road, especially the one that connects your city with a port.

[mir]

Ah, so we lose income even when an enemy army stands on a road?

I suspected the little carts and horses on the roads had to have a meaning! Hahaha.

Thanks for the feedback on the ravaged lands, everyone. Now I'll just settle back and wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. And wait some more.

Until the lands turn all green and brown and lovely again. Unless another rebel army decides to camp down for the century again! Grrr!

-mir-

PS. I've heard ports too can blockaded by an enemy army (not ships but army). By camping your enemy directly on an enemy port, you deny them their trade income.

[igor]

Well, I wasn't saying how it should be done, but how I do. So, don't come to tell me, what's wrong and what's not.

Though I know my strategy is a consequence of some kind of neurosis. I'm such perfectionist I can't handle to have a single black tile. I know it costs me more to prevent it, but I can't help it, I must have no devastation in my reign. This devastation is a fixation of mine from RTW already. I logged on because of this devastation neurosis, even though I was lurking around for months.

Income of farm upgrades are minimal though (50 fl for an upgrade), you do the count how many upgrades one needs just to support a simple unit of mail knights and how much each upgrade costs. But it's true that farm upgrades are important for population growth, and here I loose more because of my irrational neurosis.

To answer the question: as far as I know devastation is a procentage from overall farm income, so it can't get higher than farm income but it can get higher than an upgrade.

@Flavius
Btw, besides basic roads the next thing I build is a church/mosque. It helps you preventing the spreading of other religions and heresy, it gives you a point in population growth and a point of chivalry for a governer which translates to another point in population growth. That's how I do, not to say what's wrong or right.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Congrats to your first two posts, IGOR. I didn't notice you're new. Welcome to the org!

Of course everybody can do what he likes best. No one here will try to tell you what to do and what not.
When I first played MTW2, I started the same way: roads -> churches -> corn exchange... But when playing some time, I noticed religion is not that important in the first few turns. And (small) churches are quite expensive for the beginning. I think it's enough to build them after about five turns, when you have basic economic buildings (road, farms, corn exchange).

[ReiseReise]

Truly sorry if I was a bit harsh Igor I get carried away sometimes.
It goes on a region by region basis, but in a lot of regions farms will give you 50-100 florins and grain exchange might give you 20-50. Ports are a different story and I don't think the "predicted income" (grayed out icons in city income window) are accurate for ports. This could be my own neurosis, but I think the game needs a turn after the port is built to rearrange all the trade routs. So usually the trade increase from ports is greater than appears. I've never really studied it that much.

If you like to be friends with the Pope, churches are good for catholics far away from the Pope (England, Scotland, Danes, Spain, Portugal, Poland) because they increase your Papal rating until you can get a diplomat to Rome and make an alliance.

But I usually end up build Grain Exchange before farms so my governors don't get +2 BadTrader in the blink of an eye.

[mir]

Well, I wasn't saying how it should be done, but how I do. So, don't come to tell me, what's wrong and what's not.

Though I know my strategy is a consequence of some kind of neurosis. I'm such perfectionist I can't handle to have a single black tile. I know it costs me more to prevent it, but I can't help it, I must have no devastation in my reign. This devastation is a fixation of mine from RTW already. I logged on because of this devastation neurosis, even though I was lurking around for months.

@Flavius
Btw, besides basic roads the next thing I build is a church/mosque. It helps you preventing the spreading of other religions and heresy, it gives you a point in population growth and a point of chivalry for a governer which translates to another point in population growth. That's how I do, not to say what's wrong or right.

Hey, igor, welcome to the org! Thanks for posting the advice.

I confess I suffer from a similar syndrome - the spots of black and grey are just too unseemly to be left as they are. Hence my original post! Haha.

I, too, build roads first and foremost. For the trade income but more for the increased speed by which my armies and agents travel...

Second will be the Grain Exchanges (for Merchants and trade); third, land clearance for pop. growth. These days I also build a Town Hall and Town Guard after. Mainly for the pop. growth and happiness but I've also read that the Town Hall will help to reduce corruption in your province.

Town Halls also reduces chances of your Generals and Merchants getting crooked (or so I've read...).

-mir-

[igor]

Nobody should worry about being too hursh on me, truely I'm an internet hooligan, currently just hiding my true unpleasant face.

It goes on a region by region basis, but in a lot of regions farms will give you 50-100 florins and grain exchange might give you 20-50.

As far as I know it doesn't change on region by region basis. I play only on h/h so these numbers may change on difficulty basis, I've never tested it. It goes like this: for every corn in Settlement detail (basic farm income) one gets around 55 fl in city type settlements and around 70fl in castle type settlements. At first glance it may seem that castles favour the farming income, but the truth is thay you loose corns when converting to castle from city (one third?) and vice versa, so cities still give more farming income. The exact number depends on harvest, for cities you get: poor harvest 53, average 55, good 57, excellent 59.
For every farming upgrade you can just get 53-59 florins per turn more, it seems that even farming upgrades for castles give only 53-59 and not 70 florins per turn. What's even worse it seems that traits like Farming Knowledge give income bonus only to basic farming input and not to upgrades.

So, beware of black tiles, don't you EVER build any farming upgrade, it's not worth it. Keep your reign clean from those damned black tiles!

[ReiseReise]

Awesome, excellent work finding out those numbers I will definitely keep them in mind, I never bothered finding them myself because this is Total War, not Total Agriculture . Although I did enjoy playing SimFarm about 10 years ago. Highly addictive, although I never got very good at it.

[igor]

Second will be the Grain Exchanges (for Merchants and trade); third, land clearance for pop. growth. These days I also build a Town Hall and Town Guard after. Mainly for the pop. growth and happiness but I've also read that the Town Hall will help to reduce corruption in your province.


-mir-

This is probably common knowledge, but anyway: Coruption is dependent on the distance from the capital, the further the settlement is from the capital the bigger procentage you loose to coruption. It can be easily tested on the Turkish campaign on turn one, at the start of the game, if you don't change anything but just check the projected profits on h/h they are 1137 fl. If you just move the capital from Iconium to Caesarea, which is more central, the projected profits are 1280 -- nearly the equivalent of 3 farm upgrades, as I always say: Beware of black tiles, don't you EVER build any farming upgrade, it's not worth it. Keep your reign clean from those damned black tiles!

Otherwise the coruption can only be countered by law bonuses by governors (if they have any) or by buildings (in cities town halls series of buildings and town guard series of buildings give law bonuses +5% per upgrade, every upgrade of the castle gives +5% law bonuses). But this math is a bit more complicated and I don't understand fully the mechanics, it's not like this: 15% distance from capital and 15% law bonuses equals 0 corruption. For example the castle type of settlement has one half less distance penalty than city type settlement, but it seems that this counts only in regard to city order and not in regard to coruption, in other words it seems that if the castle has 10% distance from capital penalty it will count as 20% penalty for coruption calculation purposes (the city on the same spot would anyway have 20% penalty).

[igor]

Awesome, excellent work finding out those numbers I will definitely keep them in mind, I never bothered finding them myself because this is Total War, not Total Agriculture . Although I did enjoy playing SimFarm about 10 years ago. Highly addictive, although I never got very good at it.

That's what I'm saying all along, it's not Total Agriculture, don't you EVER build any farming upgrade

[Grombeard]

I must admit that i never noticed these changes on the map. I read about them here for the first time now.

So when an enemy/rebel army stands in your land, they "eat" up all the green or what? I really never saw a change there! Am i blind, dumb or aren't these graphical changes so obvious like the title of this thread suggests?

[Old Geezer]

Trade eventually gives you by far the great bulk of income. Notice when the Black Death comes that all overseas trade ceases immediately and completely? The farm income doesn't drop much. Brigands or enemies sitting on a road cut the trade, so move them off asap. This is a good way to hurt an opponent's economy even though not actively attacking and annoying the Pope. Just go sit on his roads - a 1 man army will do.

I wonder if you run the rebels off into a forest that the devastation effect is lowered?

[Shahed]

Having just been playing a Brittania Campaign as Norway, the highest devastation I noticed, caused by approximately 2 full stacks, was 764 Florins/Turn.

[predaturd]

well that just goes to prove that you shouldnt wait till you have the advantageous position to rain down fire from the walls on rebels but instead go out and slaughter the scum

[Shahed]

This was after more than 8 turns though, the province had changed hands before as well, so this was a cumulative effect.

[ReiseReise]

Trade may eventually give you the most income, but starting off with 2-5 provinces you need income immediatly, and trade takes a long time to build up provinces/trade agreements. My choice is to go for farming first, trade second, except for the grain xchange which prevents your governor from getting BadTrader. Its usually present in AI faction settlements, so no worry, but rebel settlements usually (always? the ones that start rebel anyway) have 0 buildings = no Grain Exchange = Conquering General gets -10% trade income. Maybe I am overreacting, but your neurosis about devastation is the same as my neurosis about BadTrader traits. I cannot, do not, and will not have them. Period. I will move a General out of a newly conquered city for 2 turns, no matter how much income/happiness it costs me, in order to avoid having him get BadTrader due to there being no Grain Exchange.

Call me neurotic, but I can actually relate to you Igor, even though I ripped apart your farming strategy

P.S. Sinan, do you have a new sig image every day or what? I Love them all but it is always changing.

[Shahed]

Thanks. Yeah I have a few and keep rotating between them, usually every few days, but if I'm on every day I tend to change it more often. I also try to put some fun link in, changes as well.