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Thread: MT2W:Where are we now??

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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default MT2W:Where are we now??

    Hey,


    Over 1 year since MT2W has been Released, but where is the TW Community, as a whole, at now? Your Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    anybody who bought the game, played it, or urged others to play it and see were told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzz3D
    I'm sure that you have a rather low standard as to what constitutes a worthwhile multiplayer game.
    so i'm pretty sure this forum has become a holding pattern for that, and those who play m2 have moved on to other forums.

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Where is the community. Generally into Europe. Strongest nations now are
    Poles
    Russians
    Turks
    Italians
    Americans
    Spaniards
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Where is the community. Generally into Europe. Strongest nations now are
    Poles
    Russians
    Turks
    Italians
    Americans
    Spaniards

    I think Poles are number 1
    But my family is Polish , and I'm not the #1 player around


    Let me Rephrase my Question:


    How is the TW Community Today. Is it doing good, bad, so-so?

  5. #5

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    [QUOTE={BHC}How is the TW Community Today. Is it doing good, bad, so-so?[/QUOTE]
    It's fractured among the many different versions of the game. I think this happened because the multiplayer game declined in quality with each new release. So, the existing community didn't move on intact to the next game.

    STW was played at 5000 money per player, and the playbalance was good enough that no rules limiting unit purchases were necessary. It was designed to be played at 5000 per player, and even though the system allowed a wide range on the money setting, 5000 was what almost everyone used because it was clearly the optimal value. In MTW it was unclear what the money per player should be, and a clear standard wasn't established. No matter what money setting was used in MTW there were significant imbalances, so there was no clearly optimal money setting. Judging from what I see posted RTW and M2TW also lack a strong standard. This prevents the multiplayer communities of those two games from becoming unified the way it was under original STW, and it increases the amount of time wasted trying to get a game with the settings for which you want to develop your gameplay skills.

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    in corde veritas Member Denali's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Where is the community. Generally into Europe. Strongest nations now are
    Poles
    Russians
    Turks
    Italians
    Americans
    Spaniards
    Krook how can you call a nation strong when we talk about a computer game? Maybe i completely misunderstand you point and you meant the most active countries?

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    I can because there is no international community atm. There are some national or regional communities. Polish TW community is strongest from them.


    Anyway how can i call? :)
    I'm rising my finger and pressing key :D
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    in corde veritas Member Denali's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    uhm... right

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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by {BHC}AntiWarmanCake88
    Hey,


    Over 1 year since MT2W has been Released, but where is the TW Community, as a whole, at now? Your Thoughts?


    Lost and Scattered.

    Much like last year, but even more so.

  10. #10
    ..fears no adversary Senior Member Jochi Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    The Total War community has deteriated more and more with each new game release.

    The 'Good days' of STW are long gone. MTW did hold the communities attention up to and including VI. The days of the CWC games and CWB games were well supported.

    It was the release of RTW that was the main reason for the rot. The well known clans did not 'move across' and thus the Lobby was 'taken over' by the present day type players and so it continued through BI, M2TW and now Kingdoms.

    Needless to say, Kingdoms is not being played as we would expect due to different lobbies for each .exe and possibly the Securom (hidden file) that gets installed with Kingdoms.
    Last edited by Jochi Khan; 12-10-2007 at 18:51.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    this probably isnt the best forum to ask the question as hardly anyone even visits it anymore. im not quite sure what happened as i was in a delerium through it all but it may have been arguments and whatnot over an anthill.

    to think all my men at arms and pikemen bled white over a small anthill. at least in world war 1 they gained a few yards or so before they got mowed down. before my swiss militia could plant their banner on the top of the small anthill which was an inchworm step they were trampled down in the onslaught that took place in this forum.

    oops i just woke up out of my stupor. did i just write that stuff?

  12. #12
    ..fears no adversary Senior Member Jochi Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    this probably isnt the best forum to ask the question as hardly anyone even visits it anymore. im not quite sure what happened as i was in a delerium through it all but it may have been arguments and whatnot over an anthill.

    to think all my men at arms and pikemen bled white over a small anthill. at least in world war 1 they gained a few yards or so before they got mowed down. before my swiss militia could plant their banner on the top of the small anthill which was an inchworm step they were trampled down in the onslaught that took place in this forum.

    oops i just woke up out of my stupor. did i just write that stuff?
    Not sure I know what this post is refering to.
    R.I.P Great Warrior Ja mata TosaInu


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    --call it conscience--
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  13. #13

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    MIITW <> Multiplayer. For most of us because of lag.
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

  14. #14

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    this probably isnt the best forum to ask the question as hardly anyone even visits it anymore. im not quite sure what happened as i was in a delerium through it all but it may have been arguments and whatnot over an anthill.
    What happened is the game deteriorated, and it's not an anthill of an issue because it's people's time that's being wasted. You can replace lost money, but you can't replace lost time.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    the games broken condition has not alienated the forum members of the .com or the .net.

    so i would assume it has something to do with issues not involving the broken condition of the game that members and visitors no longer frequent the org as much as they used to.

    however back to topic i would think that rome and mtw2 are workable as there really isnt any game out there until the xiii century comes out that will involve anything even remotely what these games have.

    and no one knows whether xiii century will have any multiplayer at all although i tend to believe the game may actually be geared for multiplayer when it comes out.

    rome was really bad about about people dropping out during the battles but with mtw2 the problem is getting everyone to start. usually if everyone can get on board and the deployment phase is reached and the battle starts i have never seen very many players drop.

    the issue at hand is that total war games have to relay the positions, movement and killing of hundreds or thousands of soldiers at once. in stw and mtw/vi thats all it had to do was work out equations and relay them back and forth. now rome and mtw2 have to do even more than that and anything that goes out of place can cause a desynch.

    its not comparable to a game like halo where the host only has to keep up with the positions of i think 32 individuals and other games where the number of units is much smaller than the number from total war.

    the situation i fear will only get worse with empires as these games are geared toward the single player community who want a lot of eye candy. multiplayer comes second.

    im fairly satisfied with the game balance now except for two hand swords and halberdiers. spearmen can now stop a cav charge well as long as they remain stationary.

    the only way to get smooth performance for multiplayer is too remove the eye candy.

  16. #16

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    the games broken condition has not alienated the forum members of the .com or the .net. so i would assume it has something to do with issues not involving the broken condition of the game that members and visitors no longer frequent the org as much as they used to.
    Those are forums for players who have lower standards for what's an acceptable multiplayer experience than the players who used to come here. The org existed before those forums and before the lower quality multiplayer games were released by Creative Assembly, so, the patrons here were accustomed to the standards that Creative Assembly set with the first game in the series. The community at that time was top heavy with highly skilled player. Some players went from here and established .net over disagreement on how to get Creative Assembly to impliment changes to the game after the Mongol Invasion debacle, and perhaps over what changes should be made. Another .net site was established later that emhasizes making mods. I don't know of anyone who went from here to .com because there you have to accept whatever Creative Assembly makes regardless of the quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    however back to topic i would think that rome and mtw2 are workable as there really isnt any game out there until the xiii century comes out that will involve anything even remotely what these games have.
    I don't think they are worth playing online in their present state.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    and no one knows whether xiii century will have any multiplayer at all although i tend to believe the game may actually be geared for multiplayer when it comes out.
    I'm not getting my hopes up for XIII Century. Les Grognards might be good and it should be out fairly soon, although, it doesn't have the statistically based combat model of Total War.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    rome was really bad about about people dropping out during the battles but with mtw2 the problem is getting everyone to start. usually if everyone can get on board and the deployment phase is reached and the battle starts i have never seen very many players drop.
    Networking is not Creative Assembly's strong point. The basic idea is great because it limits the amount the data sent over the network during a battle to a very small amount. However, they don't seem to be able to optimize the communication protocol, and they insist on tying the communications during the battle to the matchmaking server which introduces additional instability. Creative Assembly acts as though they don't give a damn about how much trouble players have tying to play their game online.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    the issue at hand is that total war games have to relay the positions, movement and killing of hundreds or thousands of soldiers at once. in stw and mtw/vi thats all it had to do was work out equations and relay them back and forth. now rome and mtw2 have to do even more than that and anything that goes out of place can cause a desynch.
    No it doesn't have to relay that information because the positions, movement and killing occur on each machine independent of the other machines. The only things sent over the network to the host are the commands that the player issues and a checksum to make sure that player is in sync with the host. The host then relays the each player commands to the other machines in the game. RTW and M2TW do not place an additional demands on the communications link than STW or MTW. The number of men on the fiield is the same because, although they went from 16 units in a battle to 20 units, the unit size was made smaller. This is why it's puzzling why RTW and M2Tw require broadband, and yet perform worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    im fairly satisfied with the game balance now except for two hand swords and halberdiers. spearmen can now stop a cav charge well as long as they remain stationary.
    I'm not satisfied with the playbalance of any Total War game that came after original STW.

    Quote Originally Posted by pike master
    the only way to get smooth performance for multiplayer is too remove the eye candy.
    The graphics just put additional demand on your video card, by the dynamic visual effects can load down your cpu substantially if they are not fully handled by features within the graphics card. For instance, in RTW v1.0 flaming arrows absolutely killed the frame rate. This problem was addressed in a patch, and it wasn't such a killer after that.

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Gah Pu33ed - here you are talking like 90-year-old grandpa who remind his good times :)

    Shogun was good balanced but shogun was not ideal of everything (I remember there were at least 1 rule about balancement).

    CA simply can't balance game and this is a problem. There are only 2 bugs that really makes gameplay worse - cav bug and bug. Rest are only problems with balancing game. Before RTW balancemend depend really on 2 things - cav and inf. Missile units were strong, but almost every faction had same.

    So - they were good platform to balance rest.

    RTW changed that and with other mistakes made game idiotic.

    MTW 2 is much better but balancement of unit sucks - infantry is simply too expensive and missile unit are too weak (archers) or too strong (miskeeters) - which connected with range but makes gameplay impossible on early (because without missile certain fractions is useless) and late era (because muskeeters are as effective like machine guns).

    First job to modder should be correcting missile unit - for example by giving every nation pavs or and improving archers (missile) attack for example - about 1,5 to 2 times. Then do same with horse archers (and lower their price).
    When archers will be doing normal damage - time to correct range bug.

    After that we will be having good common platform to correct cav and infantry. Nothing more - nothing less.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Freedom Fighters Clan LadyAnn's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    I am 85 year old, Puzz3D must be at least 105.

    Annie
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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Last time I met him, he could only drink tea... Not sure he had any teeth left

    And I am an awful old papasmurf!

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  20. #20

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Gah Pu33ed - here you are talking like 90-year-old grandpa who remind his good times :)
    I'm talking about objective standards that you can demonstrate in tests. These are not my standards. They are the standards of gameplay and playbalance that Creative Assembly set 7 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Shogun was good balanced but shogun was not ideal of everything (I remember there were at least 1 rule about balancement).
    There were no rules used until after Mongol Invasion was released which was about a year after Shogun. However, Shogun was not perfect. Instead of addressing the imperfections, Creative Assemble immediately started, with the Mongol Invasion add-on, down the road that they continue to go down to this day notwithstanding the improvements effected in MTW/VI with the relatively brief return of LongJohn to the design team.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    CA simply can't balance game and this is a problem.
    Exactly.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Well, we have what I call "byproduct balance". MP is basically a byproduct of SP. If the SP game is such then the MP version will be good if not then not. SP will be ofc balanced by SP criteria so there is no guarantee that it would benefit MP.
    Shogun was good because it happened to have a very simple and reasonably well balanced SP game.
    Same holds for maps. Maps were good as long as they were made by humans (in Shogun and in MTW), as soon as maps were generated from the campaign map they were useless in MP.

    All in all, Shogun was excellent because the stakes were high. CA had to prove that the concept works. So they made fantastic, captivating maps, nice 2D sprites, good AI (!!!) and they worked out a good balance.
    Once they proved the concept they focused their effort on the SP campaign side (which soon turned out was the selling point). From that point on everything we "got" in MP is a side-effect. Though they made a short lived attempt to turn MP into an RTS style game (see RTW: green arrows, RTS interface, war eles etc) but it was a failure (in every aspect but in terms of popularity too). After that MP was completely abandoned by CA, they just provided the minimal services to be able to claim that the product has an MP side.

    The sad, sad thing is that those players who absolutely loved this game and loved playing Shogun or MTW (Yuuki, CBR, smurf, Annie, etc) are still (almost) all here waiting for the day when CA will produce a game which is on the same level as Shogun or MTW was (not even better but at least the same), and this day will never come ... the SP gets more and more complicated, and Shogun MP, regardless how much we loved it, was a commercial failure.
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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    How about no ashi rule? I don't remember if it was stw or mi.
    Anyway I liked MI - funniest battle I have ever played was when I killed 15 units into 1 minute and then I was killing one val 9 kensai for 10 minutes :)
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Freedom Fighters Clan LadyAnn's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Kensai was introduced into S:TW/MI and it was one of the destabilizer and bad move.

    Annie
    Last edited by LadyAnn; 12-29-2007 at 06:47.
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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    I know when kensai was intruduced but im asking when "no ashi rule" was introduced.

    BTW Kensai was nice Annie :) I remember guy charging me with 4 kensai and 3 of them killed by muskeeters.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  25. #25

    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah
    Well, we have what I call "byproduct balance". MP is basically a byproduct of SP. If the SP game is such then the MP version will be good if not then not. SP will be ofc balanced by SP criteria so there is no guarantee that it would benefit MP. Shogun was good because it happened to have a very simple and reasonably well balanced SP game.
    If the unit balance is improved via MP feedback it improves the SP game. This can be seen in the Samurai Wars mod for MTW/VI which has a strong SP campaign on the normal difficulty setting using units that were playbalanced in MP. When the units are unbalanced the strategic AI doesn't know which units are unbalanced, but after a while the human player figures out which units work better and will buy more of them giving the human an advantage in the battles. The greater the unbalance in the units the more advantage the human player can get.

    In an old interview back before Shogun was released, Mike Simpson touted the inherent playbalance that the Sengoku period provided as an advantage for the gameplay. I wonder what happened to this kind of thinking at Creative Assembly? It's as though Creative Assembly found out that playbalance isn't particularly important to sell games, so it isn't cost effective to spend a lot of time playbalancing. This kind of thinking no only hurts MP gameplay but also hurts SP gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah
    Same holds for maps. Maps were good as long as they were made by humans (in Shogun and in MTW), as soon as maps were generated from the campaign map they were useless in MP.
    You could attack in Shogun MP at least in team games on any campaign map with a reasonable chance of winning with the exception of bridge maps. In fact, hilly maps like the original Tosa map or Mimanska were favorites of some teams to attack. This was possible because attritional play was dynamically balanced with positional play. This allowed the initiative to be an important tactical advantage which the attacker could utilize to overcome the static tactical advantages of the defender. This was quite an achievement in gameplay design considering that the attacker had no advantage in combat power over the defender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krook
    How about no ashi rule? I don't remember if it was stw or mi.
    Anyway I liked MI - funniest battle I have ever played was when I killed 15 units into 1 minute and then I was killing one val 9 kensai for 10 minutes :)
    The no ashi rule came in with MI. A no ashi rule was never used before MI and neither was a 4 max of one unit type rule used. These rules were both consequences of unit imbalance. The ashi was imbalanced because the weapon and armor upgrade costs were miscalculated, and the 4 max on guns because the guns were overpowered. Forseeing problems in unit balance in MTW due to the large number of unit types in the game, LongJohn coded a 20% tax increase on more than 4 of one unit type, but I wish we could get rid of that tax in samurai wars because we don't need it since the units are all fairly well balanced. A well balanced game doesn't need unit purchase rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krook
    Anyway I liked MI - funniest battle I have ever played was when I killed 15 units into 1 minute and then I was killing one val 9 kensai for 10 minutes :)
    The kensai unit is a problem because the battle engine can't properly handle single man units. Even without the battlefield upgrades in MTW/VI, I was not able to balance the kensai in MP and had to eliminate it from the unit selection. It's still present in SP, but players complained about it being able to kill whole armies of 3000 men. I reduced it's combat power, but now it's underpowered and the strategic AI clans suffer if they spend a lot of money training kensai. There is no optimal group of combat parameters for the kensai that I can identify that will make it balanced against 60 man units. Also, you can't depend on guns alone to be the counterunit for the kensai. But, you have identified and are an example of what I think is a basic reason why we aren't getting a better balanced game out of Creative Assembly these days.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 12-29-2007 at 14:45.

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Wait wait wait Pu33ed. Remember that I'm not playing samurai wars - give me link, maybe I will back there :)

    Anyway I agree almost with everything you are talking about, maybe without one thing;

    When the units are unbalanced the strategic AI doesn't know which units are unbalanced, but after a while the human player figures out which units work better and will buy more of them giving the human an advantage in the battles

    Here I can't agree. Into Barbarian Invasion Eastern Rome (into single player, when commanded by AI), used great army, which influenced multiplayer a lot.
    They were taking 20 units of plumbatriarii - and it was almost undefeated.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Freedom Fighters Clan LadyAnn's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Here I can't agree. Into Barbarian Invasion Eastern Rome (into single player, when commanded by AI), used great army, which influenced multiplayer a lot.
    They were taking 20 units of plumbatriarii - and it was almost undefeated.
    So, in R:TW/BI multiplayer, we now expect 20 units of plumbatriarii running around, in overlapped and tight group attacking an imaginary point behind the opponent's battle line?

    Annie
    ps.: look at Puzz3d signature for SamWars
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  28. #28
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    NO - 18 into 2 lines (8 and 10) units of plumbatriarii come to enemy line, threw 14 plumbas per soldier which kill 90% of enemies and then attack meele, which will rout enemies into 15 seconds.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  29. #29
    in corde veritas Member Denali's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    NO - 18 into 2 lines (8 and 10) units of plumbatriarii come to enemy line, threw 14 plumbas per soldier which kill 90% of enemies and then attack meele, which will rout enemies into 15 seconds.
    If you'd just stand there and let them shoot you... yes id agree with you.
    There were many different tactics to counter roman plumbatarii spam, just like pretty much everything else too. Don't make BI worse than it was please.

    LadyAnn, I suggest you simply give it a try and see for yourself. BI should be available for a very low prize now. It was good and still is a good game despite all the bugs and the lack of mp support.
    Last edited by Denali; 12-30-2007 at 17:43.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: MT2W:Where are we now??

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyAnn
    So, in R:TW/BI multiplayer, we now expect 20 units of plumbatriarii running around, in overlapped and tight group attacking an imaginary point behind the opponent's battle line?
    Nope. BI is much more refined than that. I dare to say BI is the most overlooked part of the series, I dare to say it has better balance (with a few rules) than MTW. Just the key features:
    - very strong archers (gothic raiders, ER archers)
    - strong defensive units with offensive abilities (plumbatarii, first cohorts)
    - strong offensive units vulnerable to missiles (chosen axes)
    - strong spears that can absolutely slaugther cavs and can withstand cav charge in sciltorm (gohtic spears, etc; sciltrom actually works!)
    - strong but costly cavalry, heavy cav almost twice the price than spearmen and costlier than any infantry; light cavs cannot be upgraded to beat heavy cavs (even though upgrade on heavy cavs count a lot)
    - good HA (too good for some )

    There were only two unit types out of balance: war eles and berserkers. So with no arty, no ele, no zerk rule (and optionally with max 3 or 4 HA rule as some were not happy about the HA spam which worked well) it had a very, very good balance.

    This was the only game in the whole series with several efficient strategies on team level. It was possible (i) to turtle with strong inf/archer combo; (ii) to play a balanced army with strong archers, offensive inf and cavs; and (iii) to rush with upgraded cavs/offensive inf and some cheap archers.
    We played the CWC final with 2 other chinese (taiwan?) clans (Long was one forgot the other, mea culpa) each clan played a different style. We played the balanced game, one of the chinese clans was a rusher, the other was a turtle. Each of these styles worked since we all got into the final and there were heavy competition. The outcome was very interesting. We beat the turtles, the rusher beat us and the turtle beat the rusher (at the end the turtle won on points).
    I have not seen three styles in any of the other TW games and I played tourney finals (CWB, CWC, TWPL) in all TW games. In MTW the dominant style was well balanced with a few good rusher clans (well actually one: SA). In RTW it was rush (with some skirmishing on occasions but essentially it was a rush) with a few turtles (like Rapax). In MTW2 it is again rush with some clans playing HA skirmishing but that is not very frequent.
    All in all BI has a balance and diversity which none of the other TW games has not even MTW!

    Shogun ofc is a different story ... but I was not a clan player at that time ...

    the problems with BI is that
    - most players were scared away by vanilla RTW
    - it was an expansion (like Kingdoms) and fewer players had it than RTW, as a result it was more difficult to get a fun game of random players

    Actually if there is anything that has the balance of BI, though it is entirely different period (and thus hard to compare), is the NTW2 mod by Lordz! Brilliant work, too bad it is only a mod.
    Lional of Cornwall
    proud member of the Round Table Knights
    ___________________________________
    Death before dishonour.

    "If you wish to weaken the enemy's sword, move first, fly in and cut!" - Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

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