Reinforcing armies

[Majestic7]

Despite this being my first post on these forums, I've been playing Total War series since Shogun. Excellent mods like EB and RTR have made the games even more enjoyable. I decided to post my question/request at EB forums simply because this mod is the one I play most nowadays. I even uninstalled MTW2 and Kingdoms since their battles didn't feel "right" after getting used to the combat model offered by RTR and EB.

Simply put, I'm very, very annoyed about the way reinforcing your armies works. If your forces suffer losses, you must walk them home to the nearest city that has sufficient infrastructure or the right location to build the unit to get them back at full strength. Don't get me wrong - I like the way EB handles recruitment in a more realistic way, not allowing you to recruit, say, Italian elite troops from an Indian city month after you've conquered it. However, moving units or armies back and forth for replacing losses is simply annoying from a gamist perspective. It requires such obscene amount of micromanagement and consumes gaming time that the game becomes less fun. Often when my empires grow larger I tend to stop playing because I can't be bothered to spend hours just to move armies back home for retraining or the like.

This has left me wanting for a better way to handle replacing losses, that will take less time. It would be nice if a player could retrain his troops in any and all cities on the map. However, the retraining process should take more time and money the further away you are from the closest province capable of producing the unit being retrained. The money and time taken would represent the reinforcements travelling where the unit is based. The said process might as well make the unit disappear from the map completely, thus abstracting the process of the troops moving back home, being filled back to full strength and marching back. The real point is to have a way to refill your stacks without micromanagement. I want playing a game to be fun, not feel like work - and moving those units back and forth is tedious and boring.

So, please enlighten me oh wise modders of this community - is a such change even possible? Does the game engine itself somehow prevent this wish of mine from reaching reality? Is there somewhere a mod that changed the retraining method to what I'm describing - either for RTW or MTW2? Is there perhaps a minimod that does this to EB? In my opinion, EB would be pretty damn close to perfect if the retraining was just a bit easier to accomplish.

[Pharnakes]

I feel your pain, check out my thread a few posts down, my attempt to do something about this.

EDIT:linky.

[Sarkiss]

hm, i actually enjoy this micromanagement part. thats one of the things making game realistic. you really have to think twice before expansions about the direction, logistics... i could never go back to vanilla type mods with any factional troops allowed in any province. annoys me the most.
there is always mercenaries (and quite a few) to fill the ranks
good luck

[blacksnail]

No, not with the limits of the RTW engine and EB's recruitment system.

The best way to get around this is to not retrain, but instead combine units. If you end up with remainders that are less than half strength, you can build a fort behind your lines to hold them. This way you can constantly cycle your reinforcements, particularly if you're in a particularly grueling defensive position that sees battle every turn.

Beyond this, what the historians would tell you is that the whole point of EB is to represent historicity as much as we possibly can. It would not make sense for the Romans to retrain hastati in Carthage because that never actually happened. It encourages you to think strategically - can you create a large enough army to accomplish your conquest quickly? Are you able to send a reserve without overextending yourself? Can you recruit local auxiliaries or hire local mercs to hold your objectives, as they are easy to replenish locally?

[TWFanatic]

EDIT: Didn't see that post ^

You don't need to send units home to retrain. Just train units in your homeland provinces and ship (or march) them overseas. You can combine the weakened units by clicking on a unit card, dragging it over and dropping it onto another unit card of the same unit. Do this to strengthen the veteran units with the reinforcements.

There, no more retraining. Just reinforcing. Of course, the greater you expand your empire, the more you will have to worry about the logistical challenge of having a long chain of reinforcements between your homeland and the battlefront. This discourages the blitzkrieg unless you can manage to make enough money fast enough to invest in ways of making the shipment of new recruits faster (better roads, transport fleets protected by navy fleets) or to invest in new, local military forces (mercenaries, regionals) to join your core of veterans.

[MiniMe]

Reinforcement logistics is the one of the main reasons I enjoy playing mods with AOR system.
In vanilla total war games sooner or later I began to think something Yodalike "Begun the Clone War has" cause all cities are all the same

[Maeran]

maintaining supply depots (normally a designated city or fort in my games) with reserves of factional/useful foreign troops is a challenge I enjoy greatly. especially since these non-combatant soldiers are still costing you money, as are your transport fleets. As for the last, I try wear down squadrons so as to reduce the cost during their retirement as ferries.

[LorDBulA]

Majestic7 I think You are taking wrong approach to Your problem.
Long logistic lines always where a problem and they are ment to be a problem in EB.

What was already told is the best solution in my opinion.
Reinforce Your troops and dont march them back and forth.
Did Alexander turned back to Macedon to retrain troops? No he trained them in Macedonia and send them to the front.
Marching units back is only reserved for my best units with big experience, if situation allows it (rule of thumb, if they are not silver they are not worth to be send back).
And still theyr place in army is not left empty. Fresh recruits fill in the ranks while veterans are retraining and later veterans are send as reinforcments for the not so fresh recruits ( or used in different army depending on situation ).

But this alone wont solve Your problem. Its great at first but if You go further from Your homeland the problem will return.
Native troops are next step. Usually You can find good replacements for You low to mid level troops ( sometimes locals can be even better then factional troops ).
The trick is to use only the best elite units from Your homeland and replace low to medium quality units with local troops.
Elite guys die much slower so they will last longer giving You time to bring in reinforcements. Light troops die easy so they must be replaced locally.

The last line of defence against attrition are mercenaries. This guys are proffesionals, good quality troops.
If You are still waiting for reinforcements, cant hire quality troops local, go mercenary.

Playing like this can give You much satisfaction when reinforcements reach the front line in right moment, although You had to foreseen the need for them 4 years earlier to have time to train them and then march them to the front line ( i usually dont send single units since this would be micromanagement nightmare ).

Also its fun to watch how Your army composition changes especially if You are expanding in different directions.

[Majestic7]

Yes, I know about combining units - I just think it (moving reinforcing units) to be almost as tedious and boring as moving the units back home for retraining. It doesn't solve the problem of being forced to use most of your gaming time for marching reinforcements around manually. Games such as Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron have portrayed replacing losses so much better, because manual input from player is not required.

Oh well. If there is not even possibility of easy solution, I guess I must just endure. I tend to end up having two bunches of main armies in the same front, with one army (with one or more full stacks) advancing and fighting, while the second marches home for retraining. It costs a lot, sure, but saves me a lot of trouble.

Naturally logistics are one of the most important part of warfare, I just don't want to be forced to micromanage too much. Strategy games aspiring to reach high realism level always have a problem balancing enjoyable gameplay with emulating real warfare. I guess Total War and EB have done the best they could. I have to check out that military settlement mod when it is ready, though.

[sanitarium]

Something you might want to try if you're playing as Rome is get the Augustan reforms to trigger, since you can train Imperial Cohorts and Imperial cavalry almost everywhere. This may not be quite the solution you had in mind, but it does make replacing them very easy.

[Apgad]

I tend to use a combination of the suggestions above to keep my frontline armies up to strength. In my current KartHadast campain the core of my armies are Sacred Band infantry and calvalry. I use new recruits from homeland provinces to top-up units where casulaties are mild (up to 20%), and send more depleted units back for retraining if losses are more severe.

By minimizing the types of units in each army I reduce the number of back-ups I might need. Experience builds up pretty quickly, and most of my front-line troops now have at least 3 silver chevrons, with quite a few into gold. A half-stack of this army will usually beat a full stack (or 2!) of anyone elses. I find a smaller army of elite units easier to maintain and more effective than a large army of mixed-level troops. Perhaps that's not very historically accurate, but it works for me

In the provinces I then designate 1 city as my auxillary recruiting centre for every 6 or 8 provinces conquered. I use a level 3 or 4 government, and quickly build regional MICs to access the better local troops. I then use the local elites in my standing armies, and cheap ones in garrisons. Again, the benefit is that I have less "types" of troops to retrain, and a shorter distance to travel when this is necessary.

There is still a certain amount of micro-management required, but, as mentioned, this reflects the realities of maintaining armies on campain!

[Pharnakes]

I really wish you actualy could roleplay logistics, but sadly due to the stupidly low movment, you can't. That is really what makes me try to produce mods like I do.

BTW, I do know it isn't EBs fault, so no need to jump on me.

[Intranetusa]

Naturally logistics are one of the most important part of warfare, I just don't want to be forced to micromanage too much. Strategy games aspiring to reach high realism level always have a problem balancing enjoyable gameplay with emulating real warfare. I guess Total War and EB have done the best they could. I have to check out that military settlement mod when it is ready, though.

Logistics makes the game more challenging, since you can't replenish your armies in every city you conquer and go on a steam rolling campaign across Asia and Europe. (which is basically what I did in RTW vanilla) So logistics and micromanaging your troops/reinforcements is actually one of the perks of EB.

" I guess Total War and EB have done the best they could"

RTW vanilla is a fun game with fantasy-bullcrap history.
EB is fun historical game, limited by RTW vanilla's hard coding.



Btw, province-specific training was one of the concerns everyone who is new to EB worries about. Play EB for a month or so and you'll get used to it and appreciate why it's far superior than the RTW vanilla system.

[tapanojum]

I think the one of the most entertaining parts of this game is the logistics.

[pezhetairoi]

Absolutely. It gives me a lot more to think about besides just moving armies, making attacks, etc, and then just packing up and ending turn. It really makes you appreciate the difficulties in managing armies, that for every attack, there's a whole lotta tail trailing behind it. The logistics of it has actually improved my game, because now my military system is very efficient once the campaign takes off.

I think, majestic7, you have to consider the reinforcing system not as an incidental annoyance, but rather something intentionally made a part of the game. It's the hidden side of war, and EU doesn't actually quite cut the cake IMHO, precisely because it doesn't need human input. Armies need managing. To take away part of it and let the AI handle it is, well, just escaping the crux of the matter.

[tapanojum]

Absolutely. It gives me a lot more to think about besides just moving armies, making attacks, etc, and then just packing up and ending turn. It really makes you appreciate the difficulties in managing armies, that for every attack, there's a whole lotta tail. The logistics of it has actually improved my game, because now my military system is very efficient once the game get going.

I need to establish an efficient ways of mobilizing my troops since mine is in shambles!

[Majestic7]

" I guess Total War and EB have done the best they could"

RTW vanilla is a fun game with fantasy-bullcrap history.
EB is fun historical game, limited by RTW vanilla's hard coding.

Yes, R:TW could certainly be a better game - but it still manages to be an entertaining combination of strategy and tactical level despite its shortcomings. Even if R:TW and M:TW II are light and unrealistic games as vanilla, they offer a great base for more HC mods - that makes me forgive them a lot of design decisions aimed at courting masses. I guess my dream game would be some kind of combination between EU/HoI/CK from Paradox and Total War series, with both complex strategic level and option for commanding tactical battles.

Btw, province-specific training was one of the concerns everyone who is new to EB worries about. Play EB for a month or so and you'll get used to it and appreciate why it's far superior than the RTW vanilla system.

I've been playing EB for a year or so and RTR before that, so the kind of system is certainly not new to me. Like I said, I prefer it to the vanilla one. Besides, even the stupid recruitment system of unmodified TW games requires you to march stacks around in one way or another if you use high-end troops. The annoyance level of moving units back and forth, especially with the ridicilously slow speed of ships carrying troops has just become more and more frustrating with increased playing time, leading in to me finally posting this. I guess lugging it out as Seleucids was the final straw, I just quit my recent campaign as them since it was just so damn boring to micromanage all those reinforcements and generals around Asia.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not complaining about logistics, like I said, they are an important part of warfare. More armies have perished in history of war through attrition than stupid commanders and tactical errors combined. I'm just annoyed about the amount of RL time the game requires me to use at handling them. I'd rather be in charge of making bigger level decisions concerning them than being forced to manually move every reinforcing unit around. However, like has become clear, there doesn't seem to be any easy solution to the problem. So I guess I'll just have to limit myself to playing smaller factions with less of an area to manage (and thus less armies and less marching/sailing around).

[Majestic7]

I think, majestic7, you have to consider the reinforcing system not as an incidental annoyance, but rather something intentionally made a part of the game. It's the hidden side of war, and EU doesn't actually quite cut the cake IMHO, precisely because it doesn't need human input. Armies need managing. To take away part of it and let the AI handle it is, well, just escaping the crux of the matter.

Hmm, I think it just represents logistics in different level. TW series pay more attention to tactical side, while Paradox games are about strategic level. In them, logistics is about not getting surrounded, having your troops replenish their losses in provinces with good connection back to your capital etc. Oh well, different people like different kind of playing with different preferences. I like tactical battles and strategic leadership, but I'd rather outsource tedious management elsewhere - to AI. If I'm the supreme commander of an empire, it feels stupid if I have to practically manually feed porridge to my every soldier. (Heh, that could actually be a minigame in Rome: Total Logistics -mod. )
I mean, you can automate taxation and building complexes in your provinces, so having the logistics being so tedious feels stupid compared to that. But yes, I guess I'll just keep playing the smaller factions.

[Rottweiler]

Reinforcement logistics is the one of the main reasons I enjoy playing mods with AOR system.

Same here. I love the feature. Brings much more challenge and realism.

Mods like EB and RTR are not really for overly busy or impatient players.

[tapanojum]

Mods like EB and RTR are not really for overly busy or impatient players.

Especially the turn times...hehe

[marodeur]

Also its fun to watch how Your army composition changes especially if You are expanding in different directions.

That's true and really cool, especially if playing someone like pontos, QH, the diadochi kingdoms or the greeks, who historically hired mercenaries and locals unscrpulously. With the romans I always try to use only a few auxilliaries supporting my legions (like archers or cavalry). Only in level IV provinces I allow myself some local guys who will only be used in their respective province. So in a way I fight fire with fire and get to know all the different local troops, but for offensive operations I 'll only use my roman legions.

[pezhetairoi]

...QH? xP

@tapanojum

I always mobilise a fullstack at a time, and that stays as a coherent unit for the rest of its existence. No detachments, or divisions, unless there are no forces worth my keeping them in big battering-ram formations. I decide the breakdown of the 20 units based on the recruitment area I have, the barracks coming online in the next few turns which can take on recruitments, and so on. Then I recruit them. Optimally it should take no more than 4 turns to mobilise, and no more than 4 turns to concentrate on the start line.

An example: just earlier this week I mobilised the Arverni Fourth Army to take Bagacos and be the northernmost invasion army against the Sweboz. The startline was to be the border of Bellovacaea Belgae with Nervaea Belgae. Viennos, which had only MIC3, recruited Iaosatae. Bibracte, which had forges and MIC 4, trained 4 units of Gaesatae. Vesontio, which also only had MIC3, trained out 4 units of Bataroas, while Gergovia, furthest from the front but which had a continuous paved-road to Bratosporios, trained 4 Leuce Epos with greater range. Bratosporios itself had an MIC3 in construction, to be completed in 2 turns. Which was really coincidence, since it meant that I would be able to train my last 4 units as Milnaht, and still have the whole army concentrate in Bratosporios.

What happened was 4 turns were taken to train the Celtic units. Halfway through Bratosporios MIC came online, and I began Milnaht training. At the end of the 4 turns, all units concentrated around Bibracte. With a central location it only took one turn. Following which another two turns to travel to Bratosporios, by which time the Milnaht were ready. On the 8th turn from the starting of the army recruitment, the entire army concentrated and crossed the border to besiege Bagacos.

Fast mobilisation rocks. :D But you must have the planning, and you must be very, very familiar with your empire and its infrastructure.

@Majestic7

I hear what you say about EU. I get your idea. I guess it means I'm a hopelessly devoted TW man. :)

[marodeur]

[QUOTE=pezhetairoi]...QH? xP

Qart Hadast - my fault . Should have been Karthadastim. I was influenced by the spelling of this name in a great book, "Hannibal" by Gisbert Haefs. It's German, but as far as I know it has also been translated in a lot of other languages. I can assure you, that it really rocks. It is written in a very dense way and describes the life of Hannibal and some of his comrades beginning in Qart Hadast at the time of the first punic war, continuing with the war in spain and finally (after some exploits in italy) ending in bithynia. It is a novel, not a history book, but it is very, very good and historically accurate. If you start reading it, you won't stop again.

[tapanojum]

...QH? xP

@tapanojum

I always mobilise a fullstack at a time, and that stays as a coherent unit for the rest of its existence. No detachments, or divisions, unless there are no forces worth my keeping them in big battering-ram formations. I decide the breakdown of the 20 units based on the recruitment area I have, the barracks coming online in the next few turns which can take on recruitments, and so on. Then I recruit them. Optimally it should take no more than 4 turns to mobilise, and no more than 4 turns to concentrate on the start line.

An example: just earlier this week I mobilised the Arverni Fourth Army to take Bagacos and be the northernmost invasion army against the Sweboz. The startline was to be the border of Bellovacaea Belgae with Nervaea Belgae. Viennos, which had only MIC3, recruited Iaosatae. Bibracte, which had forges and MIC 4, trained 4 units of Gaesatae. Vesontio, which also only had MIC3, trained out 4 units of Bataroas, while Gergovia, furthest from the front but which had a continuous paved-road to Bratosporios, trained 4 Leuce Epos with greater range. Bratosporios itself had an MIC3 in construction, to be completed in 2 turns. Which was really coincidence, since it meant that I would be able to train my last 4 units as Milnaht, and still have the whole army concentrate in Bratosporios.

What happened was 4 turns were taken to train the Celtic units. Halfway through Bratosporios MIC came online, and I began Milnaht training. At the end of the 4 turns, all units concentrated around Bibracte. With a central location it only took one turn. Following which another two turns to travel to Bratosporios, by which time the Milnaht were ready. On the 8th turn from the starting of the army recruitment, the entire army concentrated and crossed the border to besiege Bagacos.

Fast mobilisation rocks. :D But you must have the planning, and you must be very, very familiar with your empire and its infrastructure.

@Majestic7

I hear what you say about EU. I get your idea. I guess it means I'm a hopelessly devoted TW man. :)

Great insight thanks Pezhetaioroi. Since I mot not familiar with all the infrastructure and unit recruitment capabilities, I tend to just peice together whatever I can. Time to change that!

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Yes, I know about combining units - I just think it (moving reinforcing units) to be almost as tedious and boring as moving the units back home for retraining. It doesn't solve the problem of being forced to use most of your gaming time for marching reinforcements around manually. Games such as Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron have portrayed replacing losses so much better, because manual input from player is not required.

Oh well. If there is not even possibility of easy solution, I guess I must just endure. I tend to end up having two bunches of main armies in the same front, with one army (with one or more full stacks) advancing and fighting, while the second marches home for retraining. It costs a lot, sure, but saves me a lot of trouble.

Naturally logistics are one of the most important part of warfare, I just don't want to be forced to micromanage too much. Strategy games aspiring to reach high realism level always have a problem balancing enjoyable gameplay with emulating real warfare. I guess Total War and EB have done the best they could. I have to check out that military settlement mod when it is ready, though.

Greetings Majestic7,
I'm in the middle of an epic Seleukid campaign, I know what you mean about logistics, I do 3 things to help;
1. A small army of reinforcements follows the main stack to keep the numbers up, when facing many battles deep in enemy territory.
2. I establish a central reinforcement depo, for example playing as the Seleukids, when pushing west my first depo for 'army repair' is around Sparta(because it's isolated).
3. When my empire is strong enough I have 3 main field armies, which allows for repairing time, by one of the 3 relieving the weakened one, which can be sent back by ship in most cases, if it's silver chevroned(and therefore worth the hassle), because at least by ship, although as you pointed out is still slow, at least you can order it to move several turns worth in one go, without incurring penalties like the land based Generals.
This cuts out some of the grief, although particually in the more extreme distances my forces can look a bit like Alexanders forces at the end, ie not quite the same army as the one he started with.

[mrtwisties]

It is a novel, not a history book, but it is very, very good and historically accurate. If you start reading it, you won't stop again.

In fact, you could say that:

if you_start_reading_it
while loop = 0
end_while

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm very, very tired.

[CirdanDharix]

I actually like the difficulty of reinforcements. In my KH campaign, I took on the mighty Armenian empire with a single stack. Thanks to the high quality of my troops and superior generalship, I defeated army after army, ravaged their lands, raped their women, carried their children away into slavery, and at last threatened the very walls of their capital. The Armenians were in dire straights, but attrition had taken its toll on my army and if my troops were veterans, they were no longer as numerous as when I first set out. In an epic battle beneath the walls of Armavir, I was defeated, and the debris of my army limped back to their bases on on the Pontic coast, under constant attack by small Armenian stacks. All things considered, it was one of the funnest campaigns I've had in this game.

[blacksnail]

Oh well, different people like different kind of playing with different preferences.

Very true!

One option is to pick strategic cities that will become your regional capitals upon conquest. These should be cities with good recruitment options and a good range, preferably with ocean access. Conquer the regional capital with two full stacks, the first which is your regular army and the second which is purely used for reinforcements or your reserve army once the regular army is too battered to continue. Once the regional capital is secure, focus purely on building up the barracks to the highest levels and holding the capital. Start cranking out a local army until you have maybe a half-stack. Once done, reinforce your regular army from the reserves and send it home or to the next regional capital target. Leave the reserve army in a fort near the regional capital until you've built the local army up to a full stack, then ship the reserve army home and retrain everything. By keeping things in a bubble like this you get to avoid the hassle of piecemeal reinforcments - you have two full stacks to work with.

A faster way to do this is to just buy up mercs and drop them in your new regional capital after conquest with a family member who has moderate competence. Depending upon where you are, you should be able to do so fairly quickly.

It's not historical by any means, if you care about that, but if you don't then it's a way to avoid frustration.

[Sarkiss]

I actually like the difficulty of reinforcements. In my KH campaign, I took on the mighty Armenian empire with a single stack. Thanks to the high quality of my troops and superior generalship, I defeated army after army, ravaged their lands, raped their women, carried their children away into slavery, and at last threatened the very walls of their capital. The Armenians were in dire straights, but attrition had taken its toll on my army and if my troops were veterans, they were no longer as numerous as when I first set out. In an epic battle beneath the walls of Armavir, I was defeated, and the debris of my army limped back to their bases on on the Pontic coast, under constant attack by small Armenian stacks.

...and thats what you deserved
hopefully they will be more successful in guerrilla warfare.
i always make sure to start assembling reinforcement no later than the main army been dispatched. or better still, have the reinforcements in place by then.

[Majestic7]

Blacksnail, that is pretty much what I do now. I usually have two field armies (per front if I can afford it) composing of one or more stacks each which circulate from border to retraining and back.


If I could magically change the underlying code of R:TW (or M:TW 2), reinforcements would work something like this -

Units could be retrained as usual in the cities/castles capable of building them, but it would cost a lot of money and possibly make them drop in experience. This would represent hurried reinforcing of an established unit to the full as fast as possible. However, without retraining, units would receive a constant trickle of reinforcements, slowly building them up to maximum strength. This would only happen in cities/castles and field fortifications, not for units on the move. The speed of replacements would depend on several factors. Mainly, on distance to the closest province capable of training the kind of unit and the infrastucture on the way. Better ports and roads would mean more replacement troops. Seasons and terrain would affect this speed as well, for example, flow of replacements to a mountain fort during winter would be very, very slow or completely non-existent.

The way the invisible reinforcement flows would use roads and ports would add new strategic layer to keeping your provinces safe. Rebels or enemies sitting on a road or blockading a port would make the reinforcement trickle unable to use that route. Thus, an unit in a friendly city, but the port blockaded and roads closed would not receive any reinforcements at all before the route to the nearest province capable of sending new troops would be clear again. The underlying code could then be used to calculate supplies as well, using the same formulae, except any city would be eligible to supply armies within its ability. Extended lack of supplies could result in direct attrition, in other words, declining number of troops - this would not only represent extreme things such as starvation, but as well ammunition and equipment running out, soldiers falling sick due to bad nutrition etc. The way supply lines and reinforcement mechanics work could be different for different faction types, such as "civilized" armies and nomad hordes.

Yes, this is just a useless daydream... but I just wanted to emphasize that logistics could be interesting, even exciting in a game such as R:TW without the need for too much manual management by the player. I think this hypothetic model I put up in a few minutes would allow a lot of tactical and strategic possibilities for guerilla war and so forth. Something more refined on these lines would naturally be even better.