Arab/Middle Eastern Paganism

[J.Alco]

So we're clear, by the middle east I'm referring to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Iraq, Iran, etc. Just a few general questions about pre-islamic religion in those regions, really.

1-How come there doesn't seem to be as much information on Middle-eastern pagan religions as there is on Western European pre-christian religions? (I mean, obviously, apart from Egyptian paganism, the Saba religion, and Zoroastrianism, which seem to be pretty well-documented)

2-If there is more information on other middle-eastern pagan religions, where can I find it?

3-Has there been much research done into this area? Only most academic research into ancient religions seems to be centred around western Europe, or at least, that which I've read and seen.

4-This might be a bit of a risky question to ask, but how come there isn't (or at least I haven't heard of) a resurgence of pagan reconstructionist religions in middle eastern regions, unlike in Europe? (In western europe there's already greek and Roman reconstructionism, Druidism and Wicca, etc. I've heard of similar movements in eastern europe, but am not as well informed about that)

5-If there hasn't been that much research done into middle-eastern pre-islamic religion, how come? Is it due to lack of surviving evidence and research material?

I'm asking this out of curiosity because I can't seem to find much info on Arabic countries before the rise of Islam. There's plenty of info on Egypt, Iran, turkey (basically the area of the Sassanid empire) but not much else on anything else. Why's that?

[Dayve]

I can't answer most of those, but as for number 4, and this might be a little risky to say although true... Nobody in muslim countries would dare study any other religion, even if that religion is ancient and dead, for fear of having their head cut off with a rusty bayonett to cries of "Allahu akbar!"

[Horst Nordfink]

Risky indeed. Braver man than me.

[Foot]

I can't answer most of those, but as for number 4, and this might be a little risky to say although true... Nobody in muslim countries would dare study any other religion, even if that religion is ancient and dead, for fear of having their head cut off with a rusty bayonett to cries of "Allahu akbar!"

Actually thats essentially false. Not only can you study other religions in muslim countries, but you can practice others as well. This is a verifiable fact, your assertion on the other hand is not, and as it is contradicted by my own statement can be safely assumed to be a bigoted opinion formed from ignorance and possibly fear - which may, of course, say something about you.

Foot

[Dayve]

Actually thats essentially false. Not only can you study other religions in muslim countries, but you can practice others as well. This is a verifiable fact, your assertion on the other hand is not, and as it is contradicted by my own statement can be safely assumed to be a bigoted opinion formed from ignorance and possibly fear - which may, of course, say something about you.

Foot

You can study other religions in a select few muslim countries, Egypt is the only one i know of where you can openly practice other religions (albeit at your own risk, they get frequent death threats and discrimination, i know because i knew an Egyptian Christian) but in most it's forbidden.

The Koran even says, i'm unsure of the exact words, that other religions and other cultures should not be tolerated or accepted, they should be conquered or destroyed.

I'm not bigoted or misinformed, although i do find islamic culture vile and barbaric, but that's because of their behaviour as of the last 1000 years and their worship of a pedophile, rapist murderer named Mohammed.

I once met a Saudi Arabian muslim through World of Warcrack, knew him on Teamspeak for about 6 months. When we first met i wanted to ask some very frank and possibly offensive questions about Islam, and i was the first Atheist he had ever met so he had questions too. I showed him various videos of beheadings, executions, women being stoned to death for 'crimes' we wouldn't even consider crimes over here, suicide bombings, torture, all the nasties from the religion of peace and love.

He told me the people committing those crimes were rebels and were following a corrupt version of Islam that they have created themselves. He told me he would never approve of killing even if the condemned had done something to really deserve it, such as rape or murder or whatever, and that prison is a more civilized and favourable punishment. He said that religion is secondary and personal and nobody has the right to interfere with somebody else because of what they believe in, and especially no right to kill or discriminate against somebody because they don't believe in the same god or gods.

He was possibly the nicest and most polite person i have ever met, if only more were like him. One night his father heard him laughing with his friends from the evil and barbaric west and destroyed his computer. He emailed me from a friends computer a few weeks later and that's the last we ever saw of him.

---------------------------

However, this conversation doesn't belong on a forum like this. Perhaps eBaumsworld or some other such forum where swearing and offensive content is allowed. If any mods want to delete my posts that's perfectly fine by me, i'd fully understand.

[Foot]

You can study other religions in a select few muslim countries, Egypt is the only one i know of where you can openly practice other religions (albeit at your own risk, they get frequent death threats and discrimination, i know because i knew an Egyptian Christian) but in most it's forbidden.

Lebanon has practicing christians. So does Iraq (they also have that really old, odd sect can't remember their name). Iran has a small Jewish population, a long with the remnants of the Zoroastrians. I'm not saying that they aren't discriminated against, but to say that you end up with your head cut off is about as unfair a generalisation as you can get.

The Koran even says, i'm unsure of the exact words, that other religions and other cultures should not be tolerated or accepted, they should be conquered or destroyed.

Not true. The Koran explicity says that no harm must come to members of other monotheistic religions (though it may be more specific and talk of Abrahamic). They got around this when at war with Christians by a rather clever interpretation of the Holy Trinity as proof that Christians are polytheistic.[/quote]

I'm not bigoted or misinformed, although i do find islamic culture vile and barbaric, but that's because of their behaviour as of the last 1000 years and their worship of a pedophile, rapist murderer named Mohammed.

As you seem to have only a passing knowledge of Islam and the Koran, I would say any opinion you have must be taken with a grain of salt. Do you hate Christians with the same vehemence, their history has been just as bloodthirsty, if not more so. What about Atheists? Stalin was one and he had several million people put to death in just a few short years. Or do we not generalise when it comes to other belief systems?

Foot

[Pharnakes]

(they also have that really old, odd sect can't remember their name).

Would that be those poeple who worship he devil (only they don't think he is the devil), and build shrines of dried mud that look like an a upside-down badly made clay mug?

Katamites?

Or is that something completely different?

[Livius Andronicus]

It is interesting, although the author clearly has a genuine intention not to create hostility, this thread within 4 posts became an opinionated argument.

To the comment that no one studies other religions in Islamic countries for fear of "getting their head" cut off. How do you know that? Can you give evidence that depicts this happening? Even before answering those, what exactly is a Islamic country? Are all Islamic countries equal? Please inform us with more concrete information to understand your comment.

To the poster that clearly took office to the above comment. Please do not take this as an attack on you or Islam. Besides for the study of history I personally do not care to delve into religious viewpoints. What I find interesting is that you responded with a similar heavily opinion based post. What passages in the Koran speak about other religions and cultures? What exactly do they say? How are they interpreted? ARe there persecutions in certain Islamic countries that study religion outside of Islam? ARe all Islamic countries equal? What are the differences between certain countries?

This thread started as a serious intellectual investigation/discussion on Eastern paganism. If you must revert to attacking certain religions today, no matter what they are, at least use some evidence to support your claims.

[Dayve]

Do you hate Christians with the same vehemence, their history has been just as bloodthirsty, if not more so.

Yes i do. Not Christians, just the religion.

What about Atheists? Stalin was one and he had several million people put to death in just a few short years.

Islam and Christianity killed in the name of their religion. Stalin killed in the name of communism and political beliefs. Atheism is neither a religion nor a political belief, it's merely a disbelief in god. Find me an article of anybody that has killed in the name of Atheism and i'll be impressed. Find me proof that systematic murder of millions occured in the name of Atheism (as they have occured under other Islam and Christianity) and i will cease calling myself an Atheist and say Agnostic. (I'm already a little bit Agnostic anyways)

As for the minor religion whose name you can't remember, i believe it is Yezhidi, i probably butchered the spelling of that though. They're the ones that recently stoned to death a 19 year old girl in the street for marrying a muslim and converting to Islam and released the video on the internet. Nasty stuff. I'll PM the link to anybody that wants to see it for whatever reason but i wouldn't recommend it, it's rather depressing.

[Intranetusa]

As you seem to have only a passing knowledge of Islam and the Koran, I would say any opinion you have must be taken with a grain of salt. Do you hate Christians with the same vehemence, their history has been just as bloodthirsty, if not more so. What about Atheists? Stalin was one and he had several million people put to death in just a few short years. Or do we not generalise when it comes to other belief systems?

Foot

The funny thing about Stalin was that he was studying to becoming a Christian Greek Orthodox priest. I guess being rejected really peeved him off.

[Geoffrey S]

3-Has there been much research done into this area? Only most academic research into ancient religions seems to be centred around western Europe, or at least, that which I've read and seen.

Yes, research is done in that area. The problem is, not a huge amount, since most attention is on the effects local religious trends had on Christianity/Islam, and outside that not many have a vested interest in now lesser known religions. Research would tend to be rather esoteric, or closely linked to nationalist/ethnic interpretations, let alone that (first-party) sources are rare.

One problem in researching such things in the Arabian peninsula is that some people, and particularly those in charge and closely affiliated with upholding Islamic faith, are probably rather worried that discoveries could be made which contradict parts of the Koran, or present new views on how it developed into what is now considered more or less dogmatic.

[Kongeslask]

The funny thing about Stalin was that he was studying to becoming a Christian Greek Orthodox priest. I guess being rejected really peeved him off.

The Orthodox Christianity that was the majority religion in Georgia at the time was and is hardly "Greek". Every predominantly Orthodox country has their own "national" church.

[cmacq]

1-How come there doesn't seem to be as much information on Middle-eastern pagan religions as there is on Western European pre-christian religions? (I mean, obviously, apart from Egyptian paganism, the Saba religion, and Zoroastrianism, which seem to be pretty well-documented)

2-If there is more information on other middle-eastern pagan religions, where can I find it?

3-Has there been much research done into this area? Only most academic research into ancient religions seems to be centred around western Europe, or at least, that which I've read and seen.

4-This might be a bit of a risky question to ask, but how come there isn't (or at least I haven't heard of) a resurgence of pagan reconstructionist religions in middle eastern regions, unlike in Europe? (In western europe there's already greek and Roman reconstructionism, Druidism and Wicca, etc. I've heard of similar movements in eastern europe, but am not as well informed about that)

5-If there hasn't been that much research done into middle-eastern pre-islamic religion, how come? Is it due to lack of surviving evidence and research material?

Question 1- I assume all of your questions pertain to EB. For example; 'How come there doesn't seem to be as much information on Middle-eastern pagan religions in EB?' If yes, search for the following; Baal, Ahad/Hadad/Haddu, Dagon, Mot, Set, Ishtar, Assur, El, Bel, Belos and Belus. This should get you started.

Question 3- yes. Actually Saka/Scyth is Central Asia. Little on their believes as they seem to have had no written Language. What is present was recorded by Greeks and a little by Persians. Check those sources.

Questions 2 and 5 are simply in error, and need not trouble anyone hereafter.
I'm not sure what question 4 implies, please clarify.

[J.Alco]

Ok. I see this thread has,as I feared it would, rapidly derailed into a theological argument which hasn't had the most gentle language that I can say.

Please, I don't want to start a flame war or get anyone insulted. If you have issues to discuss regarding faith please discuss them on another topic on this forum or via PMing.

As has been pointed out, this thread was not meant to insult anyone or start any flame war. I'm just for some answers with regards to what happened. If the topìc of conversation in this thread deteriorate into a hurtful flaming, I will ask for this thread to be locked.

And as to the above poster, my question was actually referred to information on pre-islamic religion in general, AND on EB. My point being: Can you name a book, or a work, that you have read that dealt specifically with Arab/Middle Eastern Paganism (That wasn't the Egyptian Religion or Zoroastrianism)

EDIT:
I'd like to thank Geoffrey S for answering point no.3. When you say that research would be influenced by nationalist/ethnic interpretations, What do you mean exactly? That the research would be biased from day 1 and would not construct the most accurate picture of the religion? Or that the research would be used for a particular group's agenda?

[Geoffrey S]

I'd like to thank Geoffrey S for answering point no.3. When you say that research would be influenced by nationalist/ethnic interpretations, What do you mean exactly? That the research would be biased from day 1 and would not construct the most accurate picture of the religion? Or that the research would be used for a particular group's agenda?

Well, what interest remains in 'smaller' religions is largely confined either to academics or to people in the direct area where such religions dominate(d) and their ties to modern ethnicities/groups inside larger nations. Living religions generate more general interest outside such groups, and while I wouldn't say it's less biased (far from it!) that does mean a larger amount of views and interpretations are available.

That said, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic religions in the Middle East and Arabia certainly have been researched, in particular their effect on said religions; mainly the effect of the various forms of Christianity on the formation of Islam. Just that it's not likely to be mainstream.

[Livius Andronicus]

Yes i do. Not Christians, just the religion.



Islam and Christianity killed in the name of their religion. Stalin killed in the name of communism and political beliefs. Atheism is neither a religion nor a political belief, it's merely a disbelief in god. Find me an article of anybody that has killed in the name of Atheism and i'll be impressed. Find me proof that systematic murder of millions occured in the name of Atheism (as they have occured under other Islam and Christianity) and i will cease calling myself an Atheist and say Agnostic. (I'm already a little bit Agnostic anyways)

As for the minor religion whose name you can't remember, i believe it is Yezhidi, i probably butchered the spelling of that though. They're the ones that recently stoned to death a 19 year old girl in the street for marrying a muslim and converting to Islam and released the video on the internet. Nasty stuff. I'll PM the link to anybody that wants to see it for whatever reason but i wouldn't recommend it, it's rather depressing.

Your logic seems to say to me that people make wars and not religious or political views. In that case there is no argument. Islam doesn't kill people nor does Christianity. People kill people and claim they do it "insert religion."

Therefore a so called saying that an Islamic country cuts heads off of people is a moot point. People in power may do this, but it is not Islam doing the action.

[cmacq]

Sorry, just saw it was Saba and not Saka. Never mind. However, the same will apply. Check Greek and Persian sources.

[chairman]

Hey first post for this long time lurker!

Alco: don't worry, there is still hope for this thread, especially given the straightforward and objective manner in which you posted your intellectual questions. I don't actually know any material about the pagan religions of the pre-Islamic Arab world, but I do know that large areas the Arabian Peninsula were Jewish and Christian for several centuries before Muhammed. Some of the Jewish rulers of Yemen strongly persecuted the Christians under their rule. It might be possible to say that Jewish connection goes back to King Soloman because of the Queen of Sheba (Saba), and the influence Soloman had on her and subsequently her people.

Davye: to say that you hate religions because some members of those religions have commited terrible acts seems rather irrational. I don't want to start another flame war so please don't take offense to this. I just want to point out that any and every nation has commited horrendous acts at least proportional to their size. I don't hate the Tutsi because they killed thousands of Hutu, or the Turks against the Armenians, the Mongols against, well ... everyone, or any other nation for that matter. It is not right to hate a group because some of the members don't fully understand the rules of their group.

Foot: I agree with you on most of your reply. Their are indeed many of religions represented in Islamic countries. For instance, a family I know from Indonesia (the largest Islamic nation by # of people), told me that the schools honor the religous holidays from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism and maybe even some others.

[J.Alco]

Question 1- I assume all of your questions pertain to EB. For example; 'How come there doesn't seem to be as much information on Middle-eastern pagan religions in EB?' If yes, search for the following; Baal, Ahad/Hadad/Haddu, Dagon, Mot, Set, Ishtar, Assur, El, Bel, Belos and Belus. This should get you started.

Question 3- yes. Actually Saka/Scyth is Central Asia. Little on their believes as they seem to have had no written Language. What is present was recorded by Greeks and a little by Persians. Check those sources.

Questions 2 and 5 are simply in error, and need not trouble anyone hereafter.
I'm not sure what question 4 implies, please clarify.

Thanks for answering. I'll look up the names you listed in answering Question 1 as soon as I can.

What do you mean by questions 2 and 5 being in error? Do you mean that they contradict the other questions asked? That they are unclear? Or that asking where I can find such information, and why more research has not been done, is incorrect, since there IS information and research HAS been done.

Question 4 simply means why aren't people in predominately Islamic countries in the middle-east once again worshipping Pagan religions (Like, for example, people in Yemen going back to the Saba religion) like is being done in European countries (i.e People worshipping Reconstructionist Paganism in Greece, which is a predominately Greek Orthodox nation)?
Hope that clarifies things a bit.

BTW Thanks for clarifying Geoffrey S.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There is plenty of info on early eastern religions. In Babylonia and Assyria, they essentially worshipped the same gods from the time of the Sumerians to the time of EB. In Phoencia, the worshipped all of the Baals that you see with Carthage, who were in some way related to the Sumerians. Zoroastrianism took off in Persia and spread with the Persian Empire and even into the Roman Empire. And obviously there is a lot of info on Egyptian religions, which existed since the beginning of Egyptian culture through the Persian empire, merging (in some cases) with Greek gods, then being mostly killed by Christianity.

As for Arabian gods, there is info out there on pre-Islam, but it is harder to find and I personally know little. There was Allah, god of the moon (represented by a crescent shape), though.

[cmacq]

What do you mean by questions 2 and 5 being in error? Do you mean that they contradict the other questions asked? Or are you referring to the theological debate they seem to have started? Or that asking where I can find such information, and why more research has not been done, is incorrect, since there IS information and research HAS been done.

Right, yes to all reasons. There's a lot more to that theological debate, yet I'm sure too many here have heard it too many times before.

.Question 4 simply means why aren't people in predominately Islamic countries in the middle-east once again worshipping Pagan religions (Like, for example, people in Yemen going back to the Saba religion) like is being done in European countries (i.e People worshipping Reconstructionist Paganism in Greece, which is a predominately Greek Orthodox nation)?
Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Well, I'm sure the answer to the last part (question 4) is actually very simple, but this will no doubt set off a fire-strom. I may add, a fire-storm I have neither the Time nor Inclination to Ignite.

[Hax]

Well,

I certainly know that in Turkey, far off from major cities such as Istanbul and Ancara, that people still practice a mix of Pagan believes with Islamic influence.

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To answer question 4), you must understand that many countries in the middle-east have not yet accepted the relatively open-minded thinking that Europe has.

And for all you people that attack Islam, I'd suggest going out there, or just visit a Mosque in your surrounding, and ask about Islam. Or heck, just read the Koran before you start calling it a bad religion.

For all you interested, I am not a muslim. I am a Celtic reconstructionist Pagan, with influences from Hellenism. My father however, is a muslim and my mother is a reformed Christian, so I consider myself to be pretty neutral.

I have a way of thinking about religion. It's that religion itself doesn't call to violence, but as soon as it starts getting organized, with people telling other people what to do (e.g. Catholic priests, Imams, Rabbis) it is going the wrong way.

[russia almighty]

TPC is gonna rape you thats all I'm gonna say .

[Hax]

Well, I really have no intention of turning this into a flame-war discussion again, so if it makes you feel better, I'll edit my post

[cmacq]

The Koran?
What is this Koran?

As you all may know, the Koran was, by its very name and nature, never meant to be written down.

How could one read, that which was never written? Or better still, read that which was never meant to be, written by pretenders to a throne?

And...

in truth this Dissertation was only meant to be spoken in Arabic. As only the true believer, consider Arabic the only sacred language. Thus, in the eyes of the all mighty, the only tongue of any consequence.

I kanna read Arabic even if'n wrote down.

[Watchman]

I was under the impression there was no problem translating that book per se; the translation just isn't a religiously valid holy text anymore.

I understand the Caliphs threw that bit in because they could, looking at the Christians, well see just what kind of trouble religiously valid translations could be...

[Horst Nordfink]

I worry that I may have been dragged into this somewhat dubious situation of racism because I posted at the start, and it has gone downhill somewhat towards racial stereotypes and anti-muslim bias.

I'm not one of these people that feels the need to quantify his lack of racism by how many black or asian friends he has. In the part of England I live in, there aren't that many immigrants compared to other places in the country. Although we do have a dispropitionate amount of Poles.

I have one "muslim" friend. His name is Cyrus and he is from Iran. He follows Islam in much the same vein that I follow Christianity; which is very haphazardly to say the least. Cyrus is one of the most sound guys I have ever had the pleasure to meet. My life is enriched by me considering him a friend.

As an ardent atheist, I have already fallen out with my mother over my religious stance (or lack of it). I will probably fall out with my girlfriend and her family (and mine) when I announce my dissapproval of my coming child to be Christened.

I think Islam has got a bad crack from the western media since 11th September 2001. I disagree with Dayve's view of Islam, I find it to be as peaceful and caring as any other religion I have come across. You cannot judge all muslims by the actions of the few! Christianity is one of the most violent and repressive religions ever known by man over the years. Not everything that is bad in the world can be blamed on muslims or immigrants.

[cmacq]

If these words are not 'Prophetic Pronouncement,' what value would they hold for the true believer?

For far different reasons I've a lot of experience with this sad subject; 'Prophetic Pronouncement.' Talk of kith or kin have no bearing herein. Yet, in rational terms this is the only glue that holds everything together. All else given to an apparent spontaneous emergence is little more than trimming on the cake. There are other examples and similar methods and claims, and they are always the same. Magical Words, in a Sacred Language, within a 'Prophetic Pronouncement.' This is why the true believe can always be right, and all others can always be wrong.

[Watchman]

Personally, I just settle for detesting all zealots and suchlike more or less equally.

[cmacq]

I the same. Yet, like the child that cries to get attention, these have an annoying way of getting in your face.