Kingdoms balance discussion

[Lupu]

Say musket vs bow, or xbow vs bow, as I'v said the xbow is like an automatic gearsystem, not like an improved one.
I dont know why I use cars as examples.

The reason that xbows(and later muskets) mecame popular was that in europe there were no really skilled native archers(exept in england) so they had to be trained and it was expensive and time consuming, and noone did have the experience to train good archers anyway, so a well trained european archer would get a bit more skilled at standing shooting, (while falling of his horse when horse shooting) than a tribal turkoman huntsman, but everyone that could afford it(or got it) could with little training get good with an xbow, but a lifetime trained xbowman could never stand up to a lifetimetrained archer, but in europe there were no good trainers, or people that grew up with bows(again exept england) so what they did was taking some men, training them to be good marksmen and give them to the army(same with muskets, it was even easier to train a gunman, but the gun was less effective than an xbow)
The crossbow had also the advantage that it could stay loaded, so when the enemies were in range they could fire first.
And the main reason for the invention was to penetrate heavy armors more easily, it required skilled shooters first the thought because they didnt have the time to reload, so first shot was crucial.
The pope(and I suppose the french king) tried to ban xbows because it allowed a nearly untrained militiaman to kill a well trained knight, so it was seen as unhonourus to use xbows(just as the knights later looked at guns)

[Nobunaga]

when will the new patch get released??!!

[YellowMelon]

Last stage of playtesting (as far as I know)

[hammerfall]

For next retrofit patch, i think we should have vangragan guards defence up a bit. Right now, they are Max 2 units without penalty with less combat ability than Dis englishknights at a high cost(700 vs 590).

i think remove their shield bonus was good idea, make missile units have a good edge against them. but the price is way too high compare to their combat ablity right now. in 10 k game you can barely field 2 units of vangragan guards. during combat, a good players always intend to shoot off your two-handers. In most of game, I lost 5~15 men per units before my vangragan guards joined the melee. Trust me, i do anything to avoid let them get picked by missle. yet, i still lost considerable men before i can get them a shock on an engaged enemy cavalry. even tried to place 1 peasants unit on top of them to be meat shield when i rush them close to enemy, but it doesn't help much lol( causalty droped from 15 to 10). beside once melee is joined, archers can still shoot them from the second line. And 2 units max plus droping on the shield of them make them melt away quickly in melee plus missle damage way too fast.

IMO, 1st option is replacing that removied 5 shield with 5 defence, and stay max 2 units without penalty. in this case once melee is joined, they can still manage do enough damage to make up the lost vs missile fire.

second option is make them cheaper with a 3 max units on cost. consider byzantine has poor quality spearmen, they do have good long range archers to counter cavalry. but what if weather set to random, and thunder storm pops on map, my bowmen proform crap. using light horse pin down heavy cavalry then rush with vangragan guards will be the best option in this case.

if you think other wise, please gave me some idea how you use/vs them effectively.
any ideas?

[hammerfall]

I have a question:
Arent pikes supposed to be out of this RPS system rendering it unlogical and useless? I mean pikes can beat anything you throw at front of them (I know that people used to roll under the pikes but still tehy needed pikes on their own to do this...) unless flanked or hit from behind...so its like rock beats paper and sissors...

pikes works just fine right now. in retrofit mod they do beat anything frontal. 3 pike +2~3 of florn hope can take on and win most of infantry melee. due to 75 men per units+ spearwall formation you can proform a good width of spear barrier. it first stops opposing infantry surround your florn hopes, second it also avoid your elite infantry ran over by cavalry. and those 2 hit point 2hand swordsmen will kill anything stand in their way. florn hopes usually only lose 3~6 men and gets 30~50 kills. 75men per units on pike always give you an edge once you rout enemy, you always have enough men to mount another attack.

the reason pikes aren't used so often is players used to host game at high era, since there are a more units selection/combonation. there is only scottland can muster an effective pike army at high. at late game pikes are very useful, especially at rain day while arrows can't cause as much as threat on you 0 armor pikes. pikes faction always have an edge on melee battle.

[hammerfall]

Say musket vs bow, or xbow vs bow, as I'v said the xbow is like an automatic gearsystem, not like an improved one.
I dont know why I use cars as examples.

The reason that xbows(and later muskets) mecame popular was that in europe there were no really skilled native archers(exept in england) so they had to be trained and it was expensive and time consuming, and noone did have the experience to train good archers anyway, so a well trained european archer would get a bit more skilled at standing shooting, (while falling of his horse when horse shooting) than a tribal turkoman huntsman, but everyone that could afford it(or got it) could with little training get good with an xbow, but a lifetime trained xbowman could never stand up to a lifetimetrained archer, but in europe there were no good trainers, or people that grew up with bows(again exept england) so what they did was taking some men, training them to be good marksmen and give them to the army(same with muskets, it was even easier to train a gunman, but the gun was less effective than an xbow)
The crossbow had also the advantage that it could stay loaded, so when the enemies were in range they could fire first.
And the main reason for the invention was to penetrate heavy armors more easily, it required skilled shooters first the thought because they didnt have the time to reload, so first shot was crucial.
The pope(and I suppose the french king) tried to ban xbows because it allowed a nearly untrained militiaman to kill a well trained knight, so it was seen as unhonourus to use xbows(just as the knights later looked at guns)

excatly. i went to medieval faires, shoot both xbow and longbow for a few hours. i can feel a clear difference between those 2 weapons. bow(both longbow and composition bow) request the extensive strength of your arms and back, it need your hands to hold it to stay loaded. and is pretty hard to aim, while my x bow can use whole body's weight+ strength to reload, and stay loaded for as long as i want. once oppertunity is up, it takes no time to aim, and can deliver a powerful shot without having strong arms of a bodybuilder. the dude who works at faire, a master archer i guess, who has long and strong arms that can pull that combosite bow wide open. he could deliver a shot that as powerful as my xbow with a bow easily.

however i still don't think bow will win against passive xbow on missle exchange. they carry that 10 lbs large shields for reason, your arrow has no way to run through that shield unless its a blank range shot(1 or 2 feet). you have to time your shot perfect to hit the pasive xbowmen while he try to unleash his bolt. passive xbow are specialized for messile exchanges before melee is joined. so there is no supprise to see passive xbow beats archers in missile dule.

[hammerfall]

anyone else feel the longbow in retrofitMp are overpowered?

their range and accurcy are way too high. my retinue longbowmen just wtfpwnt janissary muskeeters. janissary muskeeters have to run closer to get more accurate shot. and the fast hitting arrow keep intrupt gunner's raloading amination(aka the reforming for gunner to reload). longbows have 180 range now, fire faster, more accurcy in long range, can fire high angel, can place stakes...

is there anyone else think their power is out of the balance roll? or its just me.