MiniMe Temporary Pre-1.1 EDB alteration

[Maksimus]

[MiniMe]

right. grammar

[Callicles]

That is right. On the other hand, the starting position of Pontos doesn't allow for much more than becoming Hegemon of the Asian and Black Sea Greeks. Everything else would mean to "Alexander" the Seleucids, with the starting army of Pontos in EB(!), and head into Mesopotamia. That is nigh impossible. So, most of the times the player will start marching along the Southern Black Sea, taking Nikaia, Byzantion, Pergamon, Sinope, Trapezunt and will build up his little empire before messing up with the big dogs. Therefore it could be good if the Greek units are also a part of the Pontic factional line up.

For this very reason I wish the Pontics used the eastern greek UI rather than the Eastern one.

[MiniMe]

Ok, that's it for now.
I suspend further alterations before 1.1 is out (catholic christmas, I assume)
The main questions (heavy infantry for epeiros and southeastern recruitment gap for Carthage and Eastern greeks) plus little extra (syracusans of Syracuse, poenis of Phoinike,...) were solved.
After 1.1. I'm back to examine the issues of:
1. longpikemen recruitment areas;
2. pontus dualistic recruitment of greeks (I guess, we need to remove all left greeks from foreign MIC and move them to own MIC, need to know your opinion/approval/disapproval on that, please);
3. elephants;
4. close southeastern recruitment gap for the rest of the factions even though they don't really need it
Best regards
MiniMe

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
FileFront returns error. Will you upload to zshare.net please?
.

[MiniMe]

No problem
http://www.zshare.net/download/55620458ad9a48/
However, filefront link is fine.

Best regards
MiniMe

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I suspect it's a network/pipeline problem on this side of the globe.

Thanks!
.

[konny]

On Pontos again.

I think to better display a faction that payed large effords in keeping a good balance between "Greeks" and "Persians", and taking into account that their heartlands are in central Asia Minor, I would propose the following changes to their recruitement pool:

Units that are now factional but should be regional:

Asabaran-i Hauravatish (Arachosian Skirmisher Cav)
Gund-i Nizagan (Parthian Spearmen)
Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
Khuveshavagan (Kinsmen)
Nizagan-i Eranshahr (Archer-Spearmen)
Shivatir-i Pahlavanig (Parthian HA)
Thanvare Payahdag (Persian Archers)

Some of them are only recruitable on the other side of the AS Empire and certainly don't have any meaning for a Kappadokian faction.

Units that are now regional but should be factional:

Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Toxotai
Sphendonetai
Peltastai
Hoplitai
Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Klerouchoi Phalangitai

The Greek line up. The Klerouchoi are certainly not the best sollution I can think of, but Pontos should at least have partial access to a medium Phalanx by factional MICs.

Katpatuka Zanteush (Kappadokian Hillmen)

There is no reason why the (Kappadokian) Pontics can recruite Kappadokian cavalry but not the local infantry.

Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Asiatikoi Hippeis

Debatable. They are not pure Anatolian units, but I think these together with the Pantodapoi Phalangitai are the perfect symbiosis between Greek and Asian military - typical Pontic, if you like.

Anatolikoi Phyletai

When we have an "Anatolian" faction than it is Pontos. On the other hand, changing the EDB entries for these guys is not worth the efford because they are about the same as the Katpatuka Zanteush - only weaker.


Comments, if you please?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

If you decide to change Persian hoplites and Kinsmen into regionals you'd have to build a Philhellenic satrapy there, which honestley doesn't make much sense. A Persian Satrapy, as you need it now to get them, would be much more suitable. You also have to regard that the Kings of Pontos were strongly hellenised, but still saw themselves as Persians open to hellenic culture. So they would also have liked to appease their Persian/Native subjects, perhaps with a slight intention of hellenising them. If you keep this in mind, then you'll see that the Pontics would have tried to support at least the Kinsmen, to please their old, traditionalistic Persian subjects. If that should also be the case for the Persian hoplites is debatable.
Edit: And regarding the Kleruchoi Phalangitai: If not even the Makedones and Eperioteans can recruit them in their factional MIC, why should Pontos? I think it is enough to make them available at a level 3 local MIC.

[konny]

If you decide to change Persian hoplites and Kinsmen into regionals you'd have to build a Philhellenic satrapy there, which honestley doesn't make much sense. A Persian Satrapy, as you need it now to get them, would be much more suitable.

Laying aside the naming of the governemental buildings, the problem is that Pontos can not recruite any factional units above Level 1 under a governement lesser Level II. The recruitement pool does not match with the homeland zones. For example in neighbouring Bithynia (homeland) Pontos is only able to raise three units out of their factional pool, everything else has to be regional.

You also have to regard that the Kings of Pontos were strongly hellenised, but still saw themselves as Persians open to hellenic culture. So they would also have liked to appease their Persian/Native subjects, perhaps with a slight intention of hellenising them. If you keep this in mind, then you'll see that the Pontics would have tried to support at least the Kinsmen, to please their old, traditionalistic Persian subjects. If that should also be the case for the Persian hoplites is debatable.

Both units (or the people that fought in that manner) live far outside the Pontic heartlands. Appart from the Thureophoroi (strange decision: Peltastai - no, Thureophoroi - yes), the Chalkaspidai and the Pantodapoi Phalangitai the faction is nearly 100% "Persian" by units and in no way a mixture of both cultures. That is certainly not correct.

Edit: And regarding the Kleruchoi Phalangitai: If not even the Makedones and Eperioteans can recruit them in their factional MIC, why should Pontos? I think it is enough to make them available at a level 3 local MIC.

because

a) Makedonia and Epeiros are Western Greek and have nothing to do with the Klerouchoi.
b) Pontos has a levy Phalanx (Panto) and an elite Phalanx (Chalkas). A faction that has her military so far Hellenized that it uses levy Phalanxes on a large scale and has her elite fight in a Phalanx should also be able to field a medium Phalanx as backbone of her army.

[MiniMe]

The Greek line up.

So, greeks and natives of Asia Minor - own,
Parhians and the rest of easterlings - native.
...
Agree with you on all but one - classic hoplites.
To my understanding chaps like Thureophoroi and Kleruchoi Phalangitai are state soldiers, while classic hoplites are good old-fashioned self-organised local militia, and you can't recruit both kinds from same barracks. At least that's how it goes with all eastern greeks, and we here finally begin to understand that is is precisely eastern greeks that have most common with Pontos.

[konny]

Agree with you on all but one - classic hoplites.
To my understanding chaps like Thureophoroi and Kleruchoi Phalangitai are state soldiers, while classic hoplites are good old-fashioned self-organised local militia, and you can't recruit both kinds from same barracks

Yes, very good. That should also go for the Haploi who represent the same militia force from a poorer class (according to the description). In this case Pontos has to stick to Pantodapoi for militia.

That would make for the Hellenistic part of the army of Pontos:

Hippakontistai
Pantodapoi
Akontistai
Toxotai
Sphendonetai
Peltastai
Thureophoroi
Pantodapoi Phalangitai
Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Klerouchoi Phalangitai
Chalkaspides

That should do for a Asian faction that ended as "the last defender of Greece".

[MiniMe]

Agreed
When exactly is Catholic Cristmas?

[Callicles]

When exactly is Catholic Cristmas?

December 25

[Havok.]

The Caetrannan (Lusotani light unit) has a different skin from which it shows on the unit card, in the battle field is one, in the campaing map is another
a guy told me the skin in the battle field is the one that is wrong, and need to be fixed, to let the image on the unit card identical to the one in the battle field


PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO FIX THIS EB TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MiniMe]

Sorry mate, but you post in the wrong place.
This subforum is "Unofficial modding projects" we here are nothing but amauters (and BTW, in this tread we deal with compeletely different file)
you need to post you bug report here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=127

2Callicles: thanx

[Havok.]

Sorry mate, but you post in the wrong place.
This subforum is "Unofficial modding projects" we here are nothing but amauters (and BTW, in this tread we deal with compeletely different file)
you need to post you bug report here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=127

lol mate
i'm sorry, i'm just desperate to fix this
real sorry

[spitherd]

Not sure what units are affected, but it is impossible to build the Pahlava "Settled Aristocracy" structure, and probably because of that, you can't build the #6 main city structure, which makes it hard to make better troups in Pahlava. Any way you could fix that?

[MiniMe]

@spitherd: I'm not very familiar with Pahlavan building tree, what is "#6 main city structure"?

[spitherd]

@spitherd: I'm not very familiar with Pahlavan building tree, what is "#6 main city structure"?

Sorry- the building that you can't build is Hupadikhshayih-i Pahlavanig. That building is necessary to build most of the later improvements for Pahlava (better sewars, better markets, better troops, etc). It's #6 on the building tree guide. The reason you can't build it is that one of it's prerequisites is "Settled Aristocracy"- which I can't seem to build, even though I've built everything possible and switched government types multiple times. No idea why you can't build that strucutre, and I was hoping someone with expertise could take a look at the code and see what is going on.

[Darth Stalin]

Has anyone asked that question in "bugs and fixes" thread?

BTW: maybe the "Settled Aristocracy" requires a specified date to occur? Or some other things to happen? (like Roman military reforms)?

[Jaywalker-Jack]

I havnt confirmed this in game but the thought occured to me, Ptolemies can recruit Cretan archers in Crete with their faction MIC - but since they can only build a type 3 or 4 gov there they can never build the MIC up to the required level. Same problem for Armenians trying to recruit Syrian archers in Antioch, and there's probably a few other examples.

Also, I think Arverni, Casse and Aedui should be able to recruit all Galatian units should they reach that province.

And I'll second that Sacred Band in Phoenicia idea!

[MiniMe]

I havnt confirmed this in game but the thought occured to me, Ptolemies can recruit Cretan archers in Crete with their faction MIC - but since they can only build a type 3 or 4 gov there they can never build the MIC up to the required level.

true. I think to move their recruitment to native MIC after 1.1. is out. Right now I'm on temporary leave from EB

Also, I think Arverni, Casse and Aedui should be able to recruit all Galatian units should they reach that province.

I'll examine this issue after 1.1 is out

And I'll second that Sacred Band in Phoenicia idea!

thanx mate

Best regards
MiniME

[V.T. Marvin]

I understand that you have suspended your tweaks until EB 1.1. comes out - a very reasonable thing to do. Meanwhile I would like to add my :twocents: to the discussion on Pontos.

After 1.1. I'm back to examine the issues of (...) pontus dualistic recruitment of greeks (I guess, we need to remove all left greeks from foreign MIC and move them to own MIC, need to know your opinion/approval/disapproval on that, please) ...

I think that current pontic government set up (i.e. homeland in former persian provinces, lvl II gov = "persian satrapy", lvl III gov = "philhellenic satrapy") is quite O.K. and has a grat potential for roleplaying.

I imagine a campaign where a persian King, whose main effort would be a "reconquest" of the core of former Persian empire (Syria, Mesopotamia, Persis) and at the same time providing support to greek city states along the shores of Aegean and Black Seas, "protecting" them from hegemonic ambitions of the macedonian/ptolemaic/seleucid dynasts.

To make it work, I would suggest to make all "persian" and "Caucasian" (because of the close relationship of Pontos to Armenia) available to Pontos units recruitable in faction own MIC and make all "greek" and "hellenic" and "local" (karian, cappadokian, galatian etc.) available to Pontos recruitable in foreign MIC. Thus you could build lvl I and II govs (persian ones) in the eastern provinces and get a decent choice of persian units from them, while gov III and IV govs in more or less "independent" greek cities would give you appropriate choice of greek units (hoplites, peltasts, etc) representing their own forces.

Such a solution would put the govs into line with the MICs while keeping with the dualistic nature of Pontos standing across the boundary between the persian and hellenic worlds.

I would also like to learn how to make these changes myself. Unfortunately I am totally lost when it comes to MIC section of the EDB (which I believe would be the file that governs that) - could you guys give an advise on that? Thank you in advance!

[Jaywalker-Jack]

What would you say to allowing the Baktrians to recruit Pezhetearoi and other elite Hellenic units in all the provinces the Seleucids can? I think the Baktrian skin of this unit is fine looking indeed, it would make sense to have it available at least in Syria/Babylon/Seleucia. Also, how about allowing recruitment of elephant units for them in Antioch? Reasonably logical, and it makes sense to get as much use as possible out of such a fantastic looking unit.
In my opinion, with the logistical problems of the central Asian theatre, unit recruitment should be as generous as possible!
How difficult would it be to tweak recruitment myself?

[MiniMe]

@Jaywalker-Jack&V.T. Marvin
mates, my home PC videocard went down (I'm posting this from my skinny birds's crappy laptop)
I'll continue this conversation as soon as I'd be able to ran EB on my computer

BTW: I believe Baktrian recruitment of Hellenic units to be very similar to Seleukid. Jaywalker-Jack, you sure you can't recruit Pezhetearoi in Seleukia?

[Jaywalker-Jack]

Right you are MiniMe, I was thinking of the other Hellenic Medium Infantry. Id still like to see more elephants though!
Good luck fixing that video card disaster, damned machines. Im typing this on a machine, but that dosnt change the fact that they are damned machines.

[Irishmafia2020]

1.1 is now released (today!). I am a fan of this particular modification, and I am wondering if it will be updated for 1.1, or if the current file is compatible with 1.1
Thank you for your hard work...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I believe most, if not all, of these changes are part of v1.1.
Either way, it is not compatible with EB v1.1.

[Irishmafia2020]

Ok, thank you for the quick response, I guess I'll just have to play for awhile and enjoy 1.1....