Navy

[DVX BELLORVM]

I wonder, do you keep large navy, and wage a naval warfare?

In all of my previous campaigns I did, as I consider a naval supremacy to be one of the keys to victory.

But in my current HRE campaign, I decided not to build any fleet. I did built a small one, to transport my crusaders to the Holy land and back home, but it was destroyed in a battle soon after. I never re-built it, as my empire is mostly land-locked, my possessions in the Holy land are well established, without a need for intervention from Europe. I also read somewhere that the AI is unable to set a meaningful naval blockade, usually lifting it after a turn or two. Well, that's not entirely true, at least in this case.

The Egyptians sent one large and one smaller fleet all the way from Egypt to blockade my Italian ports, the only ones that produce large income. The smaller one soon withdrew, only to be replaced by the Hungarians! So I waited and waited, but after 5-6 turns, my ports were still blockaded, and my economy on a brink of collapse.

I finally decided to build my own fleet. As my ships approached the blockaded ports, both Egyptian and Hungarian fleets fled. As a bonus, the Hungarians parked their ships right next to the Papal fleet (Pope is my ally). I attacked it, and Pope joined the battle, resulting with Hungary being excommunicated and in war with the Pope

[phonicsmonkey]

the AI naval behaviour can be a bit weird - their ships just seem to wander aimlessly around until one day they decide to randomly blockade one of my ports and start a war for no reason (as is well documented)

I tend to keep one or two decent stacks of ships around for transporting troops and lifting blockades (although I prefer to do that with diplomacy where possible) - I have to say I've never considered it necessary to dominate the seas in order to win the game, but it is almost too easy to economically cripple the AI with blockades if you feel like it...

[Sheogorath]

I generally avoid having a navy at all. Ships are expensive and you go through them fast. And their upkeep is ungodly.
If I HAVE to I purpose-build fleets then get rid of them quickly to avoid that horrible upkeep. Its not the most effecient method, but I prefer to focus on my land based forces anyway.

[DVX BELLORVM]

If I HAVE to I purpose-build fleets then get rid of them quickly to avoid that horrible upkeep.

Considering their cost/upkeep ratio, that does sound like a good compromise.

[Ramses II CP]

Yeah, if you're keeping a stack of ships around it had better be small and blockading an enemy port, otherwise it's like bleeding florins. I tend to use the mercenary ones for transport only until it's time to go to the new world.

[Cheetah]

Don't know. The upkeep is not terribly high compared to elite units such as knights etc. Also it is not terribly high compared to the income loss due to enemy blocades. Also, the more factions you are fighting the higher the chance that one of them sends a fleet to blocade your key port.
So even though I am not too eager to build large fleets, I find myself, sooner or later, depending how many ports I have and what at sees, to be forced to build at least a half stack or full stack of ships. Since the AI usually cannot focus its fleets one stack (half stack) is enough to wipe out any competition.
Also if you want to transfer troops with ships you need a decent stack, as tranfering troops with merchant gallleys is a suicide in the later game (assuming you are in fight with a decent number of factions).

[Ramses II CP]

Hrm, I haven't had that experience. Sure I get a port blockaded every so often, but then I just build some ships and beat the attack back. My armies aboard ship are almost never intercepted and even if they are the AI doesn't sink all the ships (So I don't lose troops), and after the 'retreat' I'm usually closer to my intended target than they are.

The key difference between high end troops and ships is that you can sack something with those high upkeep soldiers. With the fleet you can, a few times a game when the AI is feeling chippy, maybe protect a port or blockade an enemy one and slightly reduce your upkeep expenses. 90% of the time, however, they're useless florin bleeds and their upkeep costs make it so it's cheaper to recruit a new fleet every 4 turns, as needed, instead of keep one hanging around that long.

[Cheetah]

Maybe I am just in war with too many factions at the same time. I am almost always get blocaded by someone. Also, once I lose a naval batttle the enemy fleets play pinball with mine passing my depleated fleet from one enemy fleet to the other till it is sunk.

[Zim]

Like Cheetah, I sometimes have trouble with enemy navies, especially at that point at which the entire world attacks you no matter how peaceful/bevenolent you are.

I find keeping ships on hand sometimes actually deters enemies from blockading in the first place.

[Ramses II CP]

Maybe we're just thinking about different phases of the game. Throughout most of my games I'm only in one or two select wars, but in the end everyone comes after you and you do get more rapid fleet action. By then, though, your economy is probably rolling well enough to make it easy to ignore a few blockaded ports or absorb the cost of ship upkeep.

So I'd say until you get to ~35 provinces you really don't need a standing navy, and after that you can probably afford it. A lot of the rare early blockades I catch are 'AI Council mission' type deals too, where they'll sign an immediate ceasefire and pay you for the privelege if you have a diplomat near them.

[Eusebius86]

Just my two cents, but I initially keep an army just large enough to repel blockaders early on. Once I have a well established economy (+25 territories) I build 3 or 4 small fleets (4-5 ships large) to blockade enemy ports. I figure that its better for me to pay a few florins per turn than for the enemy to gain many florins.

[foop]

I usually keep one or two biggish fleets handy in case the AI manages to get a coherent blockade together. Since the patch, it's also handy for squashing Portugal's occasional attempts to invade Ireland and/or Wales.

Sometimes the AI handles its fleets quite well (or, appears to do so by luck), sometimes it's just bizarre. My most recent game is a good example. I toggled FOW to sate my curiosity about the Mongol advance and on the way to the Holy Land saw this.



I might have expected a few Papal and Sicilian fleets around there. The Spanish were probably just wandering past. The Byzantine admiral in chief is clearly barking mad.

[DVX BELLORVM]

It almost looks like they organized a regatta. America's Cup in medieval Europe .

[Grog]

Yes, a very nice regatta indeed!

Personally, the amount of navy I build/use depends on the area of the map and faction I play.

ie: as Byzantine I'd keep a fleet (3-4ships) in the straits between constantinople and nicea, mainly for logistics/fast reinforcements (save a 2-3 turn walk), and to blockade neutral fleets.
Also, when playing england I would keep a navy at dover and also off cornwall to stop anything sailing in from the atlantic.

Basically, I only really use navy to blockade choke points occasionally, ie: gilbraltar is a good one when you own spain etc and for logistics- drop merchants on N africa coast as a eurofaction and its only a 5-6 turn walk through the desert to gold!

[Joh]

Personally, I neglect my navy in the first 20-25 turns as I like to enjoy peace with other factions for a while, focusing first on rebels. I do not try any alliance though. This is total war, isn't it?

After that, AI usually starts its foolish attack and blockades my ports. Then, unfortunately, upgrading my cities has taken most of my money, so I go for a minimal navy, which does not take a lot in upkeep.

The drawback is that the AI seems not to do such a bad job and keeps pounding my small fleet until it is sunk. AI does not blockade a specific port consistently, but it nonetheless keeps randomly blockading one/a few of them. Is that a smart technique to deny a counter-attack or pure randomness?

Anyhow, is it only my feeling or the casualties in naval battles are tuned down when compared to MTW or RTW? Now, I can actually win naval battles (H/VH) without overkilling strength ratios.

[TheLastPrivate]

Depends on faction...factions like denmark/byzantine/sicily might want/need good navy for obvious reasons of expansion and landbridge blocks...

[ReiseReise]

In the early game unless I need the ships for transport (Sicily, Venice, Portugal, Byz etc) I do not build any. If I am blockaded, I build enough ships in that and nearby ports to break the blockade, but I do not keep them waiting around because the upkeep will drain you so much for the tens of turns that you are NOT blockaded, that your ports might as well be blockaded. Once I have a good economy going i will keep a few around because the upkeep is not that much compared to total income.

People tend to severely underestimate the effect of upkeep on their economy. For instance playing as HRE you will soon be in debt unless you go rebel blitzing. But if you simply disband 12 units of peasant archers you start with (1200 upkeep), you will start the game making a profit, and no one is likely to attack you in most of your provinces right away.

[Yoyoma1910]

I tend to keep several small fleets, of usually 2-4 ships, depending on what seas I am involved in and enemy/rebel activity.


For instance, as France I tend to keep an Atlantic, North Atlantic, and Mediterranean Fleet. In this example, the Atlantic has 2 ships, the North Atlantic has 3, and the Mediterranean has 4. When the Milanese or Sicilians become actively aggressive, I tend to find a need for a couple more ships. Though I find my Atlantic fleets can back each other up adequately.

If playing the Venetians, I tend to keep several fleets.

As far as upkeep, it doesn't bother me, since that is what massive large trade incomes are designed to supplement.

Also, by using the sort of ping pong method of a couple of my fleets vs. one enemy fleet, I've managed on several occasions to intercept and destroy a massive enemy army heading straight for a lightly garrisoned city of mine.




Yargh, ye bun ch a' inlund Land lubbers.

[TheLastPrivate]

Nothing's more satisfying than to destroy a fleet of 3 war galleys that carried a full stack of knights and italian MMA headed toward your islands..

[Quillan]

For me, it depends heavily on the faction I'm playing. As the Byzantines, I have a large navy from the beginning. First, I can block both the Dardanelles and the Hellespont with them. Second, dromons have higher crew numbers than any other tier 1 ship, which means I don't lose them. They can take on even numbers of pirates or any enemy faction and win, which brings command stars for even more advantage.

As Spain, the only navy I maintain at the beginning is enough to block the Straits of Gibraltar while not being driven out by pirate attacks. I don't really need a navy until I go on crusade or decide to try to take Corsica, Sardinia, or Sicily.

England doesn't really need a big navy unless you're trying to force a channel crossing and the continental enemies have a lot of ships in the area. The HRE usually doesn't need a fleet at all, and I wouldn't bother with one with any of the Muslim factions until later in the game. As Venice, I'll have one fleet for crusade or naval combat, but that's it for a while.

[Matt_Lane]

Generally I try and be strong at sea where the AI isn't. Playing the Moors I'm island hopping down the Mediterranean creating strong points as bait for the AI to attack. I then use my fleet to sink his ships and men, draining his resources. The upkeep of the ships is expensive but so far the war of attrition has been in my favor. The downside has been the AI dominance of the channel. I've had to recruit the odd mercenary fleet and dash across the straits in my pursuit of the English whilst they cruise across every turn to repeatedly besiege Caen. I also try to build a couple of advanced shipbuilders in the west ready for the 'World is Round' event.