The Place of the Varus-Battle

[cmacq]

For those intersested, this is a very good site that deals with the archaeology of the Late Republic/Early Claudian period in Germany. However, its in German.

Here's the intro from deutsch into english, but my german's not all that good.

Kalkriese:
Die Örtlichkeit der Varusschlacht

Einleitung

Diese Homepage ist das Produkt einer Übung zum Thema "Geschichte und EDV", die im Sommersemester 1997 vom Fach Alte Geschichte an der Universität Osnabrück unter Leitung von Karsten Bunz und Dr. Wolfgang Spickermann veranstaltet wurde. Ziel dieser Veranstaltung war es, Texte und Materialien zum Thema "Rom und Germanien" zu sammeln, zu digitalisieren und dann im Rahmen einer Homepage für eine interessierte Öffentlichkeit zusammenzustellen. Thematischer Schwerpunkt sind dabei - für Osnabrück naheliegend - die aktuellen Ausgrabungen in Kalkriese. Um das punktuelle Ereignis der "Varusschlacht" im Jahre 9 n.Chr. in einen historischen Kontext zu stellen, werden die dafür relevanten Quellen und Materialien im folgenden präsentiert. Hierzu gehören zunächst eine Einführung in die römische Germanienpolitik in augusteisch-frühtiberischer Zeit und die Präsentation von Kartenmaterial zu den augusteisch-frühtiberischen Militärlagern sowie den spezifischen Verhältnissen im Raum. Dem folgt eine zweisprachige Zusammenstellung der relevanten Berichte antiker Autoren zur "Varusschlacht"; eine Präsentation der wichtigsten militärischen und zivilen Funde aus den Grabungen in Kalkriese mit Erläuterungen und Rekonstruktionen. Ebenfalls aufgenommen sind Beispiele von dort gefundenen Münzen mit einer kurzen Einführung in die römische Geldwirtschaft und einige Beispiele für die Rezeption der "Varusschlacht" und der damit verbundenen Ereignisse in Kunst, Architektur, Literatur und Geschichtsschreibung seit der Frühen Neuzeit. Den Abschluß bildet eine ausgewählte Literaturliste. Eine ständige Aktualisierung und Erweiterung der Homepage ist geplant.

Kalkriese: (in English limestone-slip?)
The Location of the Varus-Battle

Introduction

This homepage is the result of the application of “History and EDV (Elektronische Datenverarbeitung-data processing?)”, conducted in the summer semester of 1997, by the Ancient History Department, of the University of Osnabrück, under the direction of Karsten Bunz, and organized by Dr. Wolfgang Spickermann. The goal of this project is to collect textual and physical evidence about “Rome and Germania” and to digitize and arrange this within the context of a homepage for public examination. Thematically, this project obviously stresses the participation [of the University] of Osnabrück, in the current excavations at Kalkriese. Herein, the textual sources and physical evidence relevant to and focused around the ‘Varusschlacht (Varus-battle)’ event in AD 9, are presented and placed within a historic context. This begins with an introduction to Romano-Germanic politics in the Augustan through early-Tiberian eras and includes maps of military camps as well as specific [environmental] conditions within the [study] area. Following this, are translations of reports from ancient authors, relevant to the “Varus-Battle”; a presentation of the significant artefacts?; [both] military and civilian from the Kalkriese dig, [complete] with descriptions and reconstructions. Similarly addressed are examples of coins found at Kalkriese, a short introduction to the Roman system of coinage, with some examples from the “Varus-Battle” 'Reception-Center?', and [also included are other related] elements associated with art, architecture, literature and historiography from the early modern period. A selected bibliography forms the conclusion. A continual update and extension of this homepage is planned.

If there are significant errors, please correct.

link
http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/start.html

Right, I cleaned it up a bit.

[Bava]

Very interesting site. Thank you very much, cmacq

[Tellos Athenaios]

For those intersested, this is a very good site that deals with the archaeology of the Late Republic/Early Claudian period in Germany. However, its in German.

Heres part of the intro from german into english, but my german's not all that good.

Die Örtlichkeit der Varusschlacht
Einleitung

Diese Homepage ist das Produkt einer Übung zum Thema "Geschichte und EDV", die im Sommersemester 1997 vom Fach Alte Geschichte an der Universität Osnabrück unter Leitung von Karsten Bunz und Dr. Wolfgang Spickermann veranstaltet wurde. Ziel dieser Veranstaltung war es, Texte und Materialien zum Thema "Rom und Germanien" zu sammeln, zu digitalisieren und dann im Rahmen einer Homepage für eine interessierte Öffentlichkeit zusammenzustellen. Thematischer Schwerpunkt sind dabei - für Osnabrück naheliegend - die aktuellen Ausgrabungen in Kalkriese. Um das punktuelle Ereignis der "Varusschlacht" im Jahre 9 n.Chr. in einen historischen Kontext zu stellen, werden die dafür relevanten Quellen und Materialien im folgenden präsentiert. Hierzu gehören zunächst eine Einführung in die römische Germanienpolitik in augusteisch-frühtiberischer Zeit und die Präsentation von Kartenmaterial zu den augusteisch-frühtiberischen Militärlagern sowie den spezifischen Verhältnissen im Raum. Dem folgt eine zweisprachige Zusammenstellung der relevanten Berichte antiker Autoren zur "Varusschlacht"; eine Präsentation der wichtigsten militärischen und zivilen Funde aus den Grabungen in Kalkriese mit Erläuterungen und Rekonstruktionen. Ebenfalls aufgenommen sind Beispiele von dort gefundenen Münzen mit einer kurzen Einführung in die römische Geldwirtschaft und einige Beispiele für die Rezeption der "Varusschlacht" und der damit verbundenen Ereignisse in Kunst, Architektur, Literatur und Geschichtsschreibung seit der Frühen Neuzeit. Den Abschluß bildet eine ausgewählte Literaturliste. Eine ständige Aktualisierung und Erweiterung der Homepage ist geplant.

The Location of the Varus-Battle
Introduction

This homepage is the result of the application of “History and EDV (Elektronische Datenverarbeitung-data processing?)”, conducted in the summer semester of 1997, by the Ancient History Department, of the University of Osnabrück, under the direction of Karsten Bunz, and organized by Dr. Wolfgang Spickermann. The goal of this project is to collect textual and physical evidence about “Rome and Germania” and to digitize and arrange this within the context of a homepage for public examination. Thematically this project focusses on current excavations at Kalkriese - which are close to Osnabrück. Herein, the textual sources and physical evidence relevant to and focused around the slaughtring of Varus in 9 AD, are presented and placed within a historic context. This begins with an introduction to Romano-Germanic politics in the Augustan through early-Tiberian era and includes maps of military camps as well as precise geospatial specifics of the [study] area [what the terrain was like, in measures. Say what distance from one tree to another, albeit on a bit more abstract level. ]. Following this, are translations of reports from ancient authors, relevant to the “Varus-Battle”; a presentation of the most significant findings; [both] military and civilian from the Kalkriese excavations with explanations of what they were for and reconstructions of what they were like. Similarly addressed are examples of coins found at Kalkriese, with a short introduction to the Roman system of coinage, and some examples of how the “Varus-Battle” was received by/perceived by the outside world and [other] elements associated with art, architecture, literature and historiography from the early modern period. A selected bibliography forms the conclusion. A continual update and extension of this homepage are planned.

If there are significant errors, please correct.

link
http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/start.html

Hope it'll help. My German isn't great either.

[cmacq]

Thanks for the help. I try as I can...
In this context does 'Varusschlacht' actually mean 'Varus-Battle, Varus-Massacre/Slaughter,' or 'Varus'-Last Stand?'

We also have this site about the abandoned Roman Colony at Waldgirmes. Just hit the Union Jack for English.

http://www.waldgirmes.de/roemer/index.htm

And...
this about fragments of Roman body armour found at Kalkriese.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/kalklor.html

and...
http://www.mcbishop.co.uk/jrmes/j0601.htm

I'm sure someone has figured this out already, but its clear from its design that the inside of the cavarly mask was lined with either cloth or a fur of some type?

[burn_again]

Actually your German isn't that bad at all :-).

Thanks for the help. I try as I can...
In this context does 'Varusschlacht' actually mean 'Varus-Battle, Varus-Massacre/Slaughter,' or 'Varus'-Last Stand?'

It means "Varus-Battle" and is the common term for this event. I think the term "Varusschlacht" was coined by german 19. century historians who had Arminius in mind as a national hero, so "massacre" or "slaughter" would not be applyable terms.

[cmacq]

Again, much thanks.

[pezhetairoi]

Schlacht does seem to mean battle, I believe. They used the term in the World Wars too, mainly in the context of what the Germans called the 'Cauldron Battle'. I have never heard an alternative translation of that particular german term.

A good book about the real site of the Teutoberger Wald would be 'The Quest for the Lost Roman Legions' by Tony Clunn, the author being the one who discovered the Kalkriese site and the archaeological proof that very strongly suggests that was the site of the final destruction of the three legions. Quite a spinechilling read, because the author tries to write a fictional account to go with it that makes things quite vivid.

[burn_again]

In the 19. century it was also referred to as "Herrmannsschlacht" (Herrmann = Arminius). Another more common term is "Schlacht im Teutoburger Wald" (Battle in the Teutoburg forest), referring to the supposed site of the battle. This term has come a bit out of use since Kalkriese is seen as the site of the battle.

[burn_again]

Schlacht does seem to mean battle, I believe. They used the term in the World Wars too, mainly in the context of what the Germans called the 'Cauldron Battle'. I have never heard an alternative translation of that particular german term.

Yes, Schlacht means always battle, but the verb "schlachten" can mean both slaughter and butcher, a butcher is a "Schlachter" - perhaps this causes a bit confusion.

[cmacq]

I've not reviewed the entire paper yet. Have you been to, or know details of the Kalkriese site. I remember something about earthworks?

[burn_again]

I've never been at Kalkriese, I've read a bit about it and the discovery was quite a sensation since german historians searched the site of the battle for quite a long time. So I don't really know specific archeological details or something.

[burn_again]

I remember something about earthworks?

Perhaps you mean the wall and trenches where they found remains of humans and animals?

http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/8/8a5.html

[cmacq]

Hey, just thought of it. Does 'Kalkriese' mean in English something like Chalk-giant or -rise??

[pezhetairoi]

For the information of those who might be interested, I'll paraphrase what I remember of the book. the Kalkriese battle site is actually a natural chokepoint at the foot of the northern slope of the Kalkriese hill. On one side is the hill, and on the other an impassable bog. The chokepoint is the only path leading westwards from where the legions were within some considerable distance, and Arminius knew it. He herded the Romani towards this chokepoint through the famous running battles and attacks. It now appears very clear that the Romans funnelled into the chokepoint, which was no more than 200m wide, and were set upon by Germans pursuing on their tail, and from in front. On the hill flank, the Germans had also constructed an earthen wall to shelter their troops, and from which they sallied out into the flanks of the last remnants of the three legions. Coin finds all over the battlefield (which was how Clunn, the finder, suspected he had found the site in the first place) show coin drops massively concentrated in the chokepoint, and rapidly scattering in a fan westwards of the chokepoint heading from west to north, clearly the signs of a routing army. The coins show a remarkable level of consistency in design and are all dated to the Augustan era at about the time the battle was fought.

http://www.livius.org/a/germany/kalk...kalkriese.html This is a site that will provide you with some visual help.

[cmacq]

Perhaps you mean the wall and trenches where they found remains of humans and animals?

http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/8/8a5.html

Das ist sehr interessant. Auf schlachtende, es sieht als ob, das Cherusker, das Brukterer, das Marser und das Chatten sowohl männer und tiere schlachten, auf einmal, gleichzeitig?

Wie ich häufig sage, was geschieht, wenn man ihren kopf in die öffen Löwekiefer setzen?

Yes, my German is very bad.

[L.C.Cinna]

Well some transport animals did die as well, on purpose or not but such things happen. I guess the mixed bones found in thia trench were put there by Germanicus troops because they were put in there when they were already just bones and no flesh anymore

[cmacq]

Then is this the site that Germanicus visited, rebuilt the funerary earthworks, and held burial rites? Or is this where the battle was initiated?

[blitzkrieg80]

incidently, the Slaganz (Clubmen) have such a title because of the various and interesting meanings of Slahanan

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hey, just thought of it. Does 'Kalkriese' mean in English something like Chalk-giant or -rise??

Kalk = lime, Riese = 1. Giant, 2. (timber) slide

But I think what is meant is "rieseln", meaning "to trickle, to float down". So my bet would be "where the limestone is brought down" or something along this.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Probably it relates to the fact that limestone -a valuable building material- was 'mined' there.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Probably it relates to the fact that limestone -a valuable building material- was 'mined' there.

Absolutely.

Perhaps you mean the wall and trenches where they found remains of humans and animals?

http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/8/8a5.html

The site talks about the Germans builiding the wall and trench partially with limestone, found in the area.

Das ist sehr interessant. Auf schlachtende, es sieht als ob, das Cherusker, das Brukterer, das Marser und das Chatten sowohl männer und tiere schlachten, auf einmal, gleichzeitig?

Yes of course. The text says that bones of both humans and animals (mules and horses) where found there, often buried together by Germanicus' expedition. In the cavalry, the mounts had a far higher risk of getting killed than their riders: "Schone den Mann und schlage die Pferde., "Spare the man and slay the horse".

Germanicus found the remains which were left on the ground, man and mount. Some where ritually sacrificed by the Germans. Germanicus' troop than collected the bones and placed them in an orderly and decent way in "graves", that means holes in the ground.

Btw, the text also refers to "Beschläge von Schienenpanzern" - fittings for lorica segmentata.

[konny]

Schlacht does seem to mean battle, I believe. They used the term in the World Wars too, mainly in the context of what the Germans called the 'Cauldron Battle'. I have never heard an alternative translation of that particular german term.

That would be the "Kesselschlacht".

---------------------------------

On topic: the prezise location of that battle was hottest debated by local historians in the 19th Century, offering sometimes quite bizarr sollutions. So did one theory favor the town of Detmold arguing that the name of the town should be read "Dütmal" (diesesmal = this time) and recalls the battle when the Germans where once victorious against the Romans.

[pezhetairoi]

Thanks for the heads-up on that word, konny.

@cmacq, Kalkriese is where the Germans -ended- the battle. And this is also probably the place where Germanicus appeared, since wherever it was, there were thousands of skeletons around. It could have been the fort the Romans built a day or two back while trying to decide where they would go, though.

[cmacq]

I haven't had time to read the paper yet, as I just returned from a day in the field. I'll do that right now. So, if Kalkriese is the place where the battle ended has anyone backtracked to find the location of the camp that was built after day 1?

[pezhetairoi]

Well, the book i recommended traced the entire path of the legions from the time they turned northwest to Kalkriese itself, including the camp they built, or at least Clunn's military experience (he's a Brit Major) led him to make a strong case for a location. I can't really remember, but a few pages were devoted to the camp, that much I remember.

[cmacq]

Just finished the excavation segment, and thats one amazing site.

[konny]

Btw, the text also refers to "Beschläge von Schienenpanzern" - fittings for lorica segmentata.

Yes, it was definitly in use in 9 AD. They also found mail armour that must have belonged to Legionars, not Auxilia. So, that one shows again that the Roman army was far less uniform than it is often portraited.

The passage in question:

Der Panzer (lorica), der den Oberkörper des Soldaten schützte, ist in Kalkriese durch den Kettenpanzer (lorica hamata) und den Schienenpanzer (lorica segmentata) belegt.

Says that they found both types of armour

Der Kettenpanzer bestand aus ca. 30.000 Ringen, die z.T. geschlossen (circuli), z.T. vernietet (hami) und untereinander verbunden waren. Der Kettenpanzer hatte Schulterklappen, die, nach vorne geführt, mit einer Schließe aus S-förmigen Haken zusammengehalten wurden. Mehrere solcher Schließen wurden in Kalkriese gefunden. Die Lesung und Deutung der eingepunzten Inschrift einer Schließe könnte bedeuten, daß der Legionär M. Aius (der Besitzer der Schließe) in der ersten Cohorte (prima cohors) und der Centurie des Fabricius diente. Somit wäre erwiesen, daß zumindest ein Teil der Kerntruppe (= erste Cohorte) einer Legion in Kalkriese anwesend und wahrscheinlich in Kämpfe verwickelt war. Auch wird hierdurch deutlich, daß die Kettenpanzer nicht nur von Fußsoldaten der Hilfstruppen und von Reitern, sondern auch von Legionären getragen wurden.

Says they found parts of a mail armour that was inscribted to belong to a Roman Legionar:




Source: http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck...ekt/8/8a1.html

[Bava]

"Die Lesung und Deutung der eingepunzten Inschrift einer Schließe könnte bedeuten, [...]"

Was bedeutet denn "eingepunzt"? Eingraviert? Gehämmert?

[konny]

Was bedeutet denn "eingepunzt"? Eingraviert? Gehämmert?

Yes.

[cmacq]

To everyone Bava asked;

what was meant by “eingepunzt”? engraved or hammered?

Its from the above konny post ‘Deutung der eingepunzten Inschrift,’ which could be ‘interpretation of the punched (or stamped) inscription?’

Possibly from 'ein ge-punze' (punch, chase, emboss)?

But again my german is bad to worse.

I've transcribed the excavation portion of the above mentioned report. If any English only people want a copy, just PM me and I'll sent a copy over.