Owned by uber levy slingers?

[Intranetusa]

I had a half stack ~1000 Polybian era soldiers composed of double chevron veteran hastatis + celtic spearmen, vs ~1400 "levy slingers" + several celtic slinger + celtic spearmen.

Now normally, I would have no trouble dealing with slingers and their uber AP ability due to their low attack (usually 1-2). However, these slingers were veterans, and had accumulated 4-5 chevrons. So I was facing slingers with 6-7 attack + AP...

Long story short, I got pwned when their slingers wrecked by guys by firing/running away, etc


Since most of the slingers of the era was better than archers, maybe the slingers could merely have a higher attack value than most archers, without the AP trait? :/

[TWFanatic]

This has been addressed countless times. EB has lowered the attack in 1.0 of most slingers, but the ap is there to stay. Thankfully the AI doesn't spam them, but yes they are arguably overpowered.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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You know, there's something called light cavalry...
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[pezhetairoi]

Yer. They break easily if you concentrate three or four light cav on a clump of slingers at a go from multiple directions. Or just charge frontally, then force your way through to cut them in half. Also works. No army should be without cavalry, precisely because of this reason.

[Intranetusa]

Yer. They break easily if you concentrate three or four light cav on a clump of slingers at a go from multiple directions. Or just charge frontally, then force your way through to cut them in half. Also works. No army should be without cavalry, precisely because of this reason.

Well, I'm trying to role-play as Roman, so I'm basically going pure infantry with minimal cavalry besides general and occasionally maybe 1 or 2 equites.

[pezhetairoi]

...but that's enough! I never dispose of more than 4 cavalry units per fullstack legion, and sometimes less. It's already enough. The Romans never went pure infantry, they always had a decent number of cavalry. It was only in quality that they were lacking. So if you really want to roleplay, bring cavalry anyway, 3-4 units of them, just make sure they aren't equites but local equivalents like Liguriae or Campanici... With two cavalry units and coupla light infantry units like rorarii in support you could already wipe out all those fellas. Use the cavalry to get behind the slingers or pin them down, then charge in with your infantry. Since the enemy is mostly slingers, you could actually devote most of your infantry to hunting down the iaosatae. Just use the equites to charge and halt a slinger unit long enough for infantry to catch up and take over, then move on to another unit. At the same time, with a bunch of cavalry barrelling around in the enemy's rear areas, the iaosatae wouldn't even be able to fire! Even if you can't catch the slingers with infantry or cavalry, devote enough to chasing them and not allowing them to stand still and they won't even be able to get a bullet at you. Your main mistake was to allow them the leisure to fire at you. Even chasing them ineffectually to the ends of the map is superior to letting them stand still.

[Intranetusa]

.......

See, but the problem is the slingers never fully retreat. When they fall back, they fall back into the thick lines of their spearmen, making any cavalry attack ill advised.

[Geoffrey S]

Well, I'm trying to role-play as Roman, so I'm basically going pure infantry with minimal cavalry besides general and occasionally maybe 1 or 2 equites.

In which case, you're going to lose. Roleplaying doesn't mean being completely inflexible.

[pezhetairoi]

@intranetusa

Sure they fall back into their spearmen, but then immediately behind comes my infantry who then proceed to smash into the spearmen without hurling pila. Since it takes skirmishers devilishly long to filter through their own MLR, almost all the time I catch them mid-filter, and they either attempt to disengage to the rear losing quite a big chunk of men only to be unable to fire since theirs and mine are now all tangled up in combat all down the line, or they end up being drawn into the fight as melee infantry, which they are ill suited for, chevron or no chevron. After which is a textbook application of ambush/outflanking with whatever cavalry you have. Slingers in the front of the MLR are no big problem. It's those on the flanks (which rarely happens, for some reason, they are always behind the MLR which means the same thing w.r.t. friendly fire) that cause more trouble, and even those rarely last long under my alae-and-cavalry combined ops. Amazing how well Samnitici Milites/Pedites can take out slingers, even one unit against three, especially the enemy is also being distracted by cavalry milling on their flanks.

For those who don't know, by the way, MLR is Main Line of Resistance. I wonder who coined that term.

[NeoSpartan]

Guys.... the OP said it

"However, these slingers were veterans, and had accumulated 4-5 chevrons. So I was facing slingers with 6-7 attack + AP"

Remember they also get morale boost with that extra expireince so they WILL NOT rout easely.

Its no suprise he go his Romani manhandeled by the Gauls.

Tip: Don't F* With Anything North Of the Alps

[antisocialmunky]

Slingers are one the best unit classes in the game. Atleast they weren't as insanely OP as the last version though.

[Danest]

Play like the Romans, lose like the Romans. They did poorly against fast-moving missile troops, so you can probably expect the same. Though, I think you're role-playing foolish Romans like Crassus -- Great Roman leaders could adapt, and do something that no other Roman had done before. Role play a Caesar rather than a Crassus, take some cavalry (even disband them when you're done if you want), and smash those slingers. ;)

[Danest]

As far as excellent troop-types, I think the persian archer-spearmen are excellent as well, against all but the most heavily armored/shielded of infantry.

[TWFanatic]

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You know, there's something called light cavalry...
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I use light cavalry to hold them and heavy cavalry to sweep them away.

Personally, I don't find them a problem when the AI uses them, I find them supply overpowered for me. They are incredibly lethal for me, and experience is gained fast. Plus, the AI is too stupid too counter them.

[Intranetusa]

Play like the Romans, lose like the Romans. They did poorly against fast-moving missile troops, so you can probably expect the same. Though, I think you're role-playing foolish Romans like Crassus -- Great Roman leaders could adapt, and do something that no other Roman had done before. Role play a Caesar rather than a Crassus, take some cavalry (even disband them when you're done if you want), and smash those slingers. ;)

As soon as I hit the Marian reforms, I plan to send a full stack of post Marian legionaries + auxillaries, unsupported, deep into Seleucid/Parthian territory.

Recreating Carrahe by getting my full stack legionaries slaughtered by cataphracts & horse archers sounds fun. :)

[geala]

Better recreate the defence of Syria against the Parthian invasion afterwards where the Parthians were ripped to pieces by the Romans. They were far from invincible.

Slingers, archers and skirmisher are too strong in some aspect. I accept the ap feature of the slingers (although it is historically wrong), but not the close combat performance against cavalry. The problem is mainly the too high moral. When I once again had to watch a bunch of slingers killing many of my Hetairoi in close combat I decided to put things a bit more in accordance to history. Loose order troops were extremely vulnerable to cavalry and such should it be in EB. I therefore lowered the moral of all troops with missiles and javelins. Now it's a bit better

[Pharnakes]

In what way were slings not ap in history?

[Charge]

Stone can pierce armour?

[Tellos Athenaios]

The damage a lead bullet does is considerable. Basically the ancient equivalent of a shot gun - which is what the sling was used for.

[Pharnakes]

The whole point is that it doesn't pierce armour, but that is where it's strength lies. If an arrow fails to penentrate (as it likely will if you wear good armour) then only minor brusing will be done, at the very most. This is due to the arrows low momentum.

However, a lead bullet has very high momentum, so even if you wear a full curiass, you will still get broken ribs because the shock of the bullet hitting you will just be transmited through the armour, sure the curiass is better than nothing, and will help difuse the force, but you're still going to weak up sore in the morning (if you ever do). Simiarly, whereas an arrow will just bounce off a helmet, the helmet will transmit sufficent energy from the stone to know you out, or even give you sever concusion.

Thus, although sling bullets aren't actualy ap in themselves, the damage they deal, is.

[Intranetusa]

+ 3 atk, -1 AP

[Pharnakes]

What?

AP is absolute, its there or it isn't sadly there are "gradings" of ap, otherwise slingers and the like would be easy to ballance, but....

[Charge]

I think he meant no ap, as in fact it doesn't pierce armour, and without armour damage is around arrow...

[Watchman]

The effect - focused blunt trauma - is basically around the same you get out of a mace (and to a somewhat lesser degree axe). Against an unarmoured target the effect is roughly similar to a musket ball by what I know of it (the Romans apparently had a specific tool for extracing sling bullets from bodies...), but in any case it doesn't as such have much in the way of an advantage over an arrow or javelin there.

If you amped the slingers' attack value that much to compensate for removing the AP attribute you'd just end with the buggers scything down lightly armoured targets like so much bowling pins, and basically turning them into super-archers.

After due deliberation the People's Revolutionary Committee rejects the idea and adjourns for some vodka.

[Danest]

By giving slings AP, we allow for them to be "felt" through armor, which they might be, while arrows that failed to penetrate probably wouldn't be painfully felt. Merely increasing sling's attack rating and removing the AP wouldn't cause this to happen. As it stands, persian bows are better against bare skin, while slings bullet blows are sometimes more likely to be felt through armor... this is done by giving the bows the high attack value, and the slings the low attack and AP ability. Nothing other than the use of the AP trait will allow bows to hurt more against bare skin, and the slings to hurt more against armor.

[Mykingdomforanos]

IRL I guess sling damage would depend on wether the receiver was wearing flexible armour like chainmail, or rigid armour like a muscle cuirass/ late-Roman plate cuirass.
The rigid armour would be completely impervious to any damage if it wasnt pierced or severely dented (ie by a big whacking thing not by a little stone), whereas someone wearing mail could still get blunt trauma injuries by a sling bullet or heavy melee weapon (but not by an arrow)

I would think a pointed object like an arrow would be more likely to "pierce" armour but not do as much damage to a wearer of non-rigid armour as a sling bullet.

[antisocialmunky]

Slingers don't hurt armour mroe, armour just protects less against it.

[Intranetusa]

If you amped the slingers' attack value that much to compensate for removing the AP attribute you'd just end with the buggers scything down lightly armoured targets like so much bowling pins, and basically turning them into super-archers.

After due deliberation the People's Revolutionary Committee rejects the idea and adjourns for some vodka.

The main problem with slingers is if they either upgrade weapons or gain chevrons/veteran they become uber.

I would run in fear if I had to fight levy slingers with 3 golden chevrons
(1 + 9 attack + AP = 10 attack+ AP ability)...let along any "good" slinger unit that becomes a veteran force. I think even the Roman testudo would be raped by something like that...

Oh well, I guess having slingers with AP is the lesser of two evils... :/

[pezhetairoi]

Well, all's well and good, but I still say if I had majestic7's army with one or two more cav units, I could beat those buggers. Sure I'd take a helluva loss in the approach, but since he still has cav, I could probably beat them slingers.

Not that I'm not admitting 6-7 + AP is heck painful, I've had a couple turned on me before, and of course, I've seen what my own 5-chevron slingers do to others. But they are beatable, as long as you don't fight them one-on-one. My uber gold-chevron slingers have been utterly swept away before by a flanking move made with 2 Ridoharjoz and 5 Frankamannoz.

Of course, that would all depend on just HOW many celtic spearmen were there with the slingers. Majestic7, comments?

And I agree that AP should stay for slingers for the rationale provided. Besides, they are a mighty good force multiplier for the side that uses them well and good, in other words, the player. :)

[roman]

Counter fire? Get your own uber slingers, most north italian cities can recruit them lvl 2 or 3 of local MIC if i recall. I am sure Romans used slingers in their push north. Or if you like hire merc. ones and use them when needed. During battle offer up a sacrificial unit or two, if you win the battle there is a good chance that many casualties will recover. I just finished a KH campaign on VH/H and all my armies had 3 or 4 units of slingers for countermeasure purposes. Now in my Armenian campaign i try to have slingers when i can (Scythian Archers are just too damn good of an alternative atm). Speaking of frustration dealing with range units... try going up against Saurmatae (sp?) Armenian northern neighbors when they field nothing but elite archers and lancers.

Roman.