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Thread: MTW Review Part 1: Castles and Siege Warfare.

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    Senior Member Senior Member +DOC+'s Avatar
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    Hello fellow .ORG compatriots,

    The first part of my MTW review will deal with the castles and siege warfare, the part of STW that I had very strong opinions about. Being Medieval Total War i thought there might be a shift from the open warfare battles of STW to a greater emphasis on castle battles with siege engines. After ploughing through my first campaign I am not entirely sure this is the case, I have only be fortunate enough to participate in 3 castle assaults, one defending and 2 attacking.

    From eagerly playing and for the majority of time really enjoying MTW, regarding the issue of castles and siege warfare, i have mixed feelings on whether what we have here is really a separate game or a massive upgrade from STW simply with a different setting...?

    A lot of the campaign's mechanics are very different from STW, and yet, still some remain so very similar. Take for example how provinces, ownership, castles and sieges all fall into place. Bar the shouting and the massive increase in splendour the mechanics are almost identical to STW and here's why:

    1. When besieging a castle it's written that neither of the two factions has ownership of the province's income, yet it seems that the besieger can access the province's tax rate and on entering their economy parchment also seem to earn the revenue from the half-owned province!? Strange, but similar to STW. From the manual it would suggest that until the province ownership has been decided, neither faction gains any of the tax revenue?!

    2. Other than preventing castle tech level degradation, very little can be gained from assaulting the castle as opposed to starving them out. Normally we are only talking ~3 turns (or years) of waiting. If you are earning the income (see 1. above) then what's the point in rushing? If the AI is going to counterattack you they'll do it in the next turn thus preventing you from assaulting the castle anyway. All this is the same as STW. On top of this though we have the new improved castles, etc, making it a very dangerous job to assault the castle if unprepared. If only more castle assaults occurred and indeed were encouraged to occur then we would really have a major difference from STW, since the castle design, etc is simply amazing in MTW! It really is an advantage to defend now! Built into this though remains the option to automatically resolve a castle assault and this really doesn’t take in account the difficulty involved in taking a castle in this game. In one case my castle fortifications single handedly decimated an assaulting AI army that outnumbered mine by more than 10 fold! Had I automatically resolved this battle, the AI would’ve won easily… the same is the case if the roles are reversed, thus this brings into play a massive player advantage when trying to take a castle.

    3. This brings me onto the use of siege weapons. For the human player, this represents no problem at all as they can assign the siege weapons to armies appropriately as and when they are required. In a field battle, if defending, they’ll place them is the best position beside the rest of their army wherever they’ve decide to defend. If attacking the human player will again position them accordingly. Now, in field battles, the AI really suffers when attempting to use siege weapons, especially in defence. The Ai’s initial set-up position appears fixed and therefore more often than not the AI will end up moving their army once the battle’s started to take up better defending positions on hillsides or in forests. Of course if they have siege weapons, these will be left at the original positions all on their own and will be easily mopped up by cavalry. The solution to this is not easy and my sympathy goes out to the developers, however, one possible idea would be to make many of these weapons movable, especially balistas, catapults, cannons for instance. I can understand trebuchets and mangonels being stationary and therefore would remain problematic in these circumstances. Maybe another, more complicated solution would be altering the AI’s use of some of these weapons primarily to battles involving castle assaults in preference over field battles. Or make the Ai select it’s invading armies in a more varied manner, say with only a maximum of 2 siege weapons in any one force? In one rare case, I even experienced my own catapult inside my castle taking out my own walls when trying to target the approaching enemy!

    Furthermore the AI tends to set its forces on the opposite side from the gate into the castle and therefore when trying to get in had to walk its units all the way round my castle all the while taking constant damage from my castle towers! Still there really is nothing like the authentic feeling one gets from the castle battles and MTW comes very close to getting them absolutely right.

    4. The similarity with STW which is most frustrating is the downgrading of the buildings when losing the province, but having not yet lost the castle. This means there is no purpose in retreating to your castle since all the damage is already done to your improvements and the invader is apparently earning the province's income. Surely the sense here would be that the improvements would remain intact until the whole province was taken, this way providing some strategy in retaining or retreating to the castle for the defender?! The castles and citadels are massive and therefore I’d imagine most of the facilities would be contained within the walls? In the bigger picture what this means is if I were to lose my province, have the buildings downgraded and then manage to retake the province, the buildings would be downgraded a second time! One of DD’s biggest reservations on MTW during his review was that he ended up fighting peasants and technologically inferior opponents as the campaign progressed. The Ai’s lack of protection over its more vital provinces, along with the mass downgrading of improvements upon the changing of province ownership is the simple reason for the inability of the AI to tech up effectively.


    Although this may seem all too negative, I am purely suggesting ways for improvements and highlighting potential flaws in the AI. A lot has been added to the total war series with this entry, however, with increased complexity comes the unenviable task of programming an AI to cope with it. The issues of castles, sieges, etc in STW was my most argued and discussed part for improvement, and whilst in MTW significant progress has been made on this area, I feel there are still too many skeletons remaining from the STW cupboard. This part forms a small part of an otherwise quite splendid and enthralling gaming experience and when I touch into other areas in future parts to my MTW review, they’ll definitely be more positive.

    I hope you enjoyed the summation and your feedback and opinions are most welcome.


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  2. #2

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    AI will always be flawed. I havent played a game yet were the ai could play and act like a human. The AI on Higher Difficulties in this game can give you a good fight. If your a hardcore vet of STW, then you might have an easy time with them.

    Also Again Im puzzeled by your statement about castle sieges and the length of time it takes for the castle to be sacked. (I beleive you used three years). Well I tell you what, tell that to the 200 Men that I lost in my last game that had to take that dam Citadel with 120 defenders. The place had to be assualted because it was supplied and never would run out. (I Kid you not)

    Also I found that waiting 8 Years or more on the castle seige, it slows your Offensive down. I found that the only choice is to attack. The only pain in the butt that I found is that having 3 Enemy men held up in the Castle is just silly.

    [This message has been edited by malkuth (edited 09-04-2002).]

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    Senior Member Senior Member +DOC+'s Avatar
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    I do have to say though that the castles battles on multiplayer are an absolute blast just as long as the attacker gets substantially more florins than the defender.
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    Member Member Kingmaker's Avatar
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    Malkuth,


    At first I thought the "3 guys holdiong the castle" thing was silly too, but then I relaized that the game really considers the castle to have an invisible garrison manning the towers (archers, ballista towers, etc.). As best I can tell, you are assumed to have defeated them as you take areas of the castle, but it at least explains why the Genral and his two boot polishers are holed up in there!

    Kingmaker
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    I strongly agree about the improvements being destroyed before the castle falls.

    That should be changed, if at all possible... many improvements should be protected by castle. Obviously not stuff like ports, dockyards, mines, farmlands etc... but the armories, swordsmiths, bowyers, etc should probably be IN the castle (they could even have been represented by building that could be destroyed by siege engines in battle!).

    As it stands, it is simply too easy to raid the AI's production centers and cripple him.

    The other thing is castle degradation. This should ONLY happen as a result of damage done during an assault.

    Why the hell would the castle degrade if you starve it out? Is the garrison reduced to eating the masonry?

    Very stupid... and a completely unneccessary "balancing effect" made all the more irritating by the fact that it is inconsistant.

    Otherwise, I am having a blast!

  6. #6

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    That is a good idea for a change - have the weapons and military unit-related buildings INSIDE the castle as they probably would be when it comes to Citadels and Fortresses.

    The simple fix is to create some sort of binary option in the code that when set to 1 prevents X building from being destroyable when a province is invaded, unless the citadel/fortress falls.

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    Senior Member Senior Member +DOC+'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
    Is the garrison reduced to eating the masonry?[/QUOTE]


    yum yum!

    In all seriousness though the idea of improvements only being destroyed when the whole province is taken, castle included, is something i've been trying to get implemented since the old STW days. I just cannot fathom the reasoning behind the current setup?!!?!?

    As you say, it is simply too easy to raid the AI's production centers and cripple him as the AI doesn't value and consequently defend its important provinces enough.

    Maybe there's another, more complicated reason that we are unaware of as to why this has never been added or even thought of?!

    Who knows!?
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  8. #8

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    Doc,

    The argument put forth by one of the programmers was that, if the buildings were not downgraded, then the human player could grab developed provinces from the ai and thereby circumvent the ecomomics of having to climb the tech tree. A lot of buildings and all the farms would be outside even a large castle. So, I can see the rational for the present way taxes and building destruction is done. It could be the province defenders that are destroying things before they retreat to the castle to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. I would agree that the castle shouldn't be downgraded unless it is assaulted and damaged.

    I don't think the ai should be fielding siege weapons in open field battles at all in its present state. It doesn't use them well, and, with the 16 unit limit, it's a disadvantage to field many siege weapons. I've had battles where the ai fielded 8 siege weapons, and then promptly deserted them with the other 8 units.


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    But... if you destroy them when the castle falls instead of the province you get the same effect, and then your castle is actually worth something more than a POW camp!!!

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    Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
    But... if you destroy them when the castle falls instead of the province you get the same effect, and then your castle is actually worth something more than a POW camp!!![/QUOTE]

    Aye, my sentiments in a nutshell.

    No problem with them being downgraded, just make it happen when the castle is taken in addition to the province.

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    It's a shame some of these aspects have been hardcoded and aren't open to modding. it would be great if defending a castle served a greater purpose in MTW, for instance, improvements not getting downgraded/destroyed until the castle was taken in addition to the province. At the moment, losing the province is the real crucial part and therefore the usefulness of holding the castle is highly debatable.

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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    I think they should release a patch or expansion to allow Archers and other foot troops on the walls and towers and especially the Keep!!

    You can tell they wanted to do this by the width of the walls and towers, you can easily fit a troop of men on there. I just think they didn't have enough time to complete it, the game does seem a bit rushed. Also I think a unit of Ladder men and Battering Rams would be nice and might as well add moats and stronger walls.

    This would make the sieges a little more like Lords2 which was fun to play. I think these additions would be great, I just wished they would listen. Maybe we should have a pettition?


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    unfortunately i'd imagine your ideas are probably outwith the scope of MTW. Furthermore whether i'd really enhance the castle assaults or not, i'm not so sure?!

    For me, it's more the AI's method involved rather than the actual features per se. Arrows from the battlements and turrets are more than enough for me. Instead i'd like to see siege times correctly calculated following a field battle and not before the field battle and the AI deal with the castle maps slightly better.
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    CA CA GilJaysmith's Avatar
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    We did kinda want to do men on walls. It was constantly near the top of our wishlist.

    But there were numerous reasons why it didn't go in. Individually they might not sound like much cop, but by the time we'd finished the core features of the game we didn't have enough time and we had all the following points to consider. You might like to take this as an example of the detail we go into when pondering features. I apologise in advance to the team if I'm misrepresenting any part of the discussion...

    - So you want to put some of your men on the walls. How do they get up and down? A whole new level of pathfinding will be necessary to help them find places to get on and off the walls. We thought about having them move to the nearest tower and then emerge from it on the battlements, or vice versa, but even this posed problems.

    - Even funnier: you put your men up there ready to face the enemy, and the enemy promptly marches around the castle and attacks from the rear. Can your troops move between walls, or do they have to get down, march across the courtyard, and climb back up?

    - So pathfinding and movement might be tricky. Should the unit just effectively turn into an extra animation for the wall, with the men just standing there and firing? Maybe we need to solve the pathfinding problem after all. In that case we need to be able to accurately select the unit with the mouse, as opposed to selecting the model they're standing on. The interaction between men (billboarded sprites) and models (3D objects) only just works on basically 'convex' models such as the bridge - which is handled as an excellent bodge, by the way, and so shouldn't be taken as evidence that we already had technology to handle men moving over models.

    - So the men are up there and firing. Unfortunately, all the arrows they're firing start inside the wall model's bounding cuboid, and can't hit the enemy. Similarly, incoming arrows always hit the model, never the men on the wall. For projectiles fired by artillery we have extremely accurate (and much more time-consuming) collision detection, but for arrows we just go on cylinders and cuboids because there are so many of both. So there'd be a speed hit, turning on this detailed level of projection for every arrow fired at or by a man on a wall. Also, once the attackers get closer than a certain distance, archers on the walls won't be able to shoot down at them unless we bodge the projectile code some more to allow that sort of thing.

    - If you put one of your defending units up there, why not just leave it up there, laughing at the enemy? The right unit on a wall could be invulnerable to missile fire. So do we allow the enemy to get up there too? Can you have melees on the walls? Will melees look silly if the walls are only wide enough to support one man fighting at each end of the unit? If the only way onto the wall is from the inside of the castle, the attacker has to break in first anyway, so to be fair to the attacker we'd have to add ladder assaults or siege towers or suchlike. This is looking like lots more work.

    - What about once the attacker has invaded the castle and killed off everyone on the ground? If you conquer a castle area but there are still defenders on the walls, have you won the battle? Should any men left on walls will be taken as prisoners?

    - OK, so we're getting a bit late in the project. Time for wishlist features... we could give this a go. But, the wall animations aren't compatible with men standing on them. If you put a bunch of archers on the wall, the enemy will fire a couple of rocks at the wall and the first damage animation leaves the men with nowhere to stand; bye bye unit. Now you could argue, correctly as it happens, that the need to rework old stuff is not in itself a good enough veto for new stuff; we'd never get anywhere if we actually thought that. But we're getting close to feature freeze. Is it worth redoing those very nice collapsing walls, given the other problems? Perhaps not.

    - Say we do all the above and you can now put men on walls and we've addressed all those other points. *Now* we have to program the AI to make sensible decisions about when to put men on walls, how to get them up and down, which units would be the best, what they should shoot at. Otherwise it'll look somewhat stupid.

    - Finally, will it even be fun? From the sound of some of the earlier issues, possibly not...

    This, then, was our Men On Walls Dilemma(TM): spend a long time implementing this stuff and running into all the above difficulties, or don't take the risk, ditch the feature, and concentrate on what we've got.

    So we decided on the latter, and there you go.

    Gil ~ CA


    [This message has been edited by GilJaysmith (edited 09-09-2002).]
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    I totally agree with you GilJay, the complexity of archers on the battlements isn't worth it imho. Certianly not for the immediate title and whether it would enhance gameplay is certainly debatable...


    However, i notice you've been skirting around the rest of the issues on this thread based on siege times and castles in general?!

    hehe, is there a reason for that?

    Seems like there are quite a few now all agreeing too lol.

    [This message has been edited by +DOC+ (edited 09-09-2002).]
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    CA CA GilJaysmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by +DOC+:
    However, i notice you've been skirting around the rest of the issues on this thread based on siege times and castles in general?!

    hehe, is there a reason for that?
    [/QUOTE]


    It's simple enough: I don't know. You'll notice I very rarely answer stratmap questions. There were ten of us programming this beast and there are huge areas I know nothing about. Your best bet for this one is probably EatColdSteel.

    Gil ~ CA


    [This message has been edited by GilJaysmith (edited 09-09-2002).]
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    okies, no probs.

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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    Gil,

    What about using Ramps and only or only Tower Archers? Towers don't destroy until last hit? Then all inside can be dead unless they exit. :-)

    ALSO the main one would be the Keep, I think the keep would add that Last ditch effort to get the General. :-)

    Gatehouses should be able to throw Rocks or Oil?

    What about battering Rams?

    I think some of the issues and solutions you provided were over complicated.

    I agree on the walls, But towers, and Keep are plausible, IMHO. :-)

    How is this, :-) Toers don't fire unless archers are on top of them? That would require use to make sure we put archers in the castles, also the walls could be a little stronger.

    Gatehouses should have some kind of defense like Rocks or Oil. Maybe one or 2 throws.

    Maybe you should just have a castle garrison standard that comes with the castle? as the tower takes hits so do the Archers.

    Ones you get inside the walls the towers are accessable to the enemy. Just as you did with the gatehouses?

    I mean I know this is a slight over simplification, but they are valid points, as are yours. :-)

    Do you like any of the above mentioned Ideas? Do you think they may be implimented?

    I believe the following would be mosty likely possible to add based on your engine (at least I hope so. lol).

    1. Standard Garrison with each castle size.
    2. Tower don't fire unless archers are on them.
    3. Anyone who owns the curtain (by being inside) can access the tower. Using gatehouse method already in game.
    4. Men don't take dame, but are damaged as the Tower gets damaged.
    5. Gatehouses have a defense, rocks something. lol Maybe double gates bust one down then while trying to bust the other Ricks or arrows hit them.?
    6. Keep holds general and door must be busted down like the gatehouse.

    I think all above are possible without being to problematic. because they are using existing code already in the game?

    ThanksYou guys are great! Just fix that Multiple unit problem that slows the machines down and you will have my loyality! lol :-)


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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    bump

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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    bump

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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    bump

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    CA CA GilJaysmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by m38a1guy:
    Do you like any of the above mentioned Ideas? Do you think they may be implimented?
    I think all above are possible without being to problematic. because they are using existing code already in the game?
    [/QUOTE]

    Putting men on towers with ramps isn't code already in the game.

    I don't think we're going to do anything much with castle defences, certainly not for the patch. We might think about some simple things like boiling oil for the addon.

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    Member Member m38a1guy's Avatar
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    Oil is good, and maybe some sort of double gatehouse? :-)

    Keep would be nice if the general's unit can hide inside its gate?


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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    I primarily want the AI seige weapons to be used right in assaults. It's just a shame to see a cannon get slaughtered by my Keep because the AI put it way too close to my castle.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
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    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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    Doesnt the gatehouse´s already have a defense??? If not what´s the grey stuff u can see, if u zoom in, when your men are attacking the gates. Whatever it is, it kills my men in big numbers.
    STW will always be #1

  26. #26

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    Giljay,

    Excellent post on why the most "simple" things are really that simple when it comes to programming. Every option increases the issues and problems, and oftentimes leads to other issues - perfect example is if you allow defenders on the wall, do you allow attackers on it to take them out.

    Hopefully, a post like this can serve to educate people that many "simple" things are really "simple". Then again . . .

    Thanks for taking the time to explain.

    Grifman

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    ya, its great to know the progs care

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    I think the besiegers should lose men to attrition each turn just like the besieged.Then there would be more incentive to assault, then just wait them out.

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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Hey that's actually a damn good idea. Guess it can be justifed by deserters due to the lengthy seige, death attempting indivual assaults and just disease in the camp.

    Woohoo!!!

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    Member Member PSYCHO's Avatar
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    GilJaysmith: Thanks for all your time and patience you put into the community. I for one love the work you guys have done with MTW.

    Regarding sieges, I believe there needs be a slight tweak / increase in incentive for both Player and AI to engage in assualt other than just siege. Maybe have the attacker suffer casualties as well, or have the % of defender casualties increase with time but at a lower rate.
    Although the siege to assault ratio is fairly close historically, MTW really is combining traditional siege and assault in the one representitive form, so it becomes an issue of gameplay.
    A well stocked Citadel should be able to hold out with some 1,000 men for more than 1 or two turns for practical gameplay / response reasons. If MTW had used a seasonal turn based system, 1-2 years wouldn't be an issue and would accurately reflect history. As it is, we have yearly turns for other extremely valid reasons of scope / improvements which adds a great deal to the game, but IMHO, there needs be a few adjustments that takes this into consideration.

    my2bob



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