Colorado Shootings -- One Life Ended to Save Others

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One security guard stands firm and saves a few lives in the process. Despite a response time of less than 180 seconds (kudos to them!), the police arrived only to mop up. ....score one more for the virtue of an armed citizenry.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...25NxMzVoWm8rrQ

[Papewaio]

Security guard = well regulated militia not Joe Smith citizen.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Security guard = well regulated militia not Joe Smith citizen.

Hahaha! You are misinformed. The average person with a concealed weapons permit is a better shot than the average security guard.

And even than, security guards have nothing to do with a well regulated militia, which demolishes your attempted cleverness.

Which is worse: easy access to guns for criminals/nutters/scuiciders, or a lack of the very best weaponry for self defence.

A false choice. Taking guns away from the people does not lower crime - a point I think I proved in the debate with W&F's.

And these events, while tragic, are very rare exceptions.

Indeed, the shooting at the mall in Omaha was at a 'gun-free' zone. There was a shooting at a different mall over a year ago; again, a gun free zone. But an off-duty cop ignored the sign and brought his gun and he was the one to end the shooting.

No, I can't. Maybe you can Sasaki, but I'd be really interested to see you try, and make some ammunition that doesn't blow up in your face. Maybe if you had an AK47 in bits you could put it back together in your basement.

With some machine tools and knowledge, it's be pretty straightforward. With no fancy tools and hardware supplies, you can build a submachine gun.

Oh, and this was no kid; he was a felon who could not legally possess, much less buy, a gun.

I'm also pretty sure that even if you armed everyone at some point the wacko is going to go batty and use a sniper rifle from the belfry.

The one time that happened in the US, at a university in Texas, the local population, students and professors included, helped police by breaking out their rifles and shooting at the murderer in the tower, severely restricting his ability to shoot at people.

Are guns licensed and trained like cars? If not, why not. Surely both are tools that in the wrong hands (inexperienced, drugged, nutcase etc) can be disastrous.

Because owning guns is a right, owning cars is not. And I'd think the anti-gunners in the US would whine if, with an easy to obtain license, one could obtain any machinegun or firearm money can buy. Also, licensing doesn't do **** to stop crime, but does make it easy for states to later ban guns (which has happened in some states).

But the point should be that there are much more important issues to the omaha mall shooting than gun control.

CR

[Tribesman]

Also, licensing doesn't do **** to stop crime, but does make it easy for states to later ban guns (which has happened in some states).

So it does make it easy for States to get guns off people who legally had guns but due to changes in circumstances are no longer allowed to have guns , like when they are convicted of a felony .

Taking guns away from the people does not lower crime - a point I think I proved in the debate with W&F's.

Think again , the study used didn't prove that at all . Infact the study said that it didn't prove anything .

[Ronin]

so a nutjub wants into a public place and starts shooting people....a trained security officer stops him with another gun...

and this is a pointed out as a virtue of an armed citizenry?

isn´t the whole problem that the nutjub had easy access to guns in the first place?

[Redleg]

The armed security guard did the right thing - stopped the instance of this crime from spreading farther.

Any other arguement begins to degenerate into several fallacies concerning gun control.

[Vladimir]

Security guard = well regulated militia.

[Myrddraal]

The Colorado shootings came just days after a teenager armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire on Christmas shoppers at an Omaha shopping mall in Nebraska on Wednesday, killing at least eight people before turning the gun on himself.

Another argument for an armed citizenry? Of course, by completely ignoring that argument, I'm sure you were waiting for someone to bring it up

Edit:
I think you've missed a point here Seamus, self defence is the argument for an armed citizenry, shootings in the street are exactly the opposite.

Your statement sounds almost like you're saying more shootings are a good thing!

score one more for the virtue of an armed citizenry.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sorry if the phrasing is off, I am in no way calling for more such shootings. I'd rather the phenomenon dissapated entirely.

From what I know of security guards, Pappy, I'm not really inclined to put them in the category of well-regulated militia. I do understand the point your are making, however.

My thoughts were simple. One person, armed and willing to act in defense of others, is more valuable than the most responsive police force in these situations. This is no fault of the police -- they cannot be all places at all times.

[Myrddraal]

One person, armed and willing to act in defense of others, is more valuable than the most responsive police force in these situations.

It's true, but one unstable teenage kid with a semi-automatic rifle in a shopping mall, willing to harm others and himself, is much worse than the worst thug armed with a broken bottle.

EDIT:

Or is it? CR would disagree. I guess at the end of the day, that's what the entire gun debate boils down to. Which is worse: easy access to guns for criminals/nutters/scuiciders, or a lack of the very best weaponry for self defence.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's true, but one unstable teenage kid with a semi-automatic rifle in a shopping mall, willing to harm others and himself, is much worse than the worst thug armed with a broken bottle.

You can build an AK-47 in your basement.


Gun control as a method to reduce violent crime is such a red herring that it sets progress back by years.

[Myrddraal]

You can build an AK-47 in your basement

No, I can't. Maybe you can Sasaki, but I'd be really interested to see you try, and make some ammunition that doesn't blow up in your face. Maybe if you had an AK47 in bits you could put it back together in your basement.

Besides, even if you could, it doesn't add anything. An unstable teenage kid in a country where he has to build an AK47 in his basement, or an unstable teenage kid in a country where he can walk into a shop and buy one, which one's going to go shoot some people?

As for it being a red herring, I'd agree. It's not the differences in control, it's the differences in culture and attitude to guns that makes the difference in violent crimes.

[Viking]

With some machine tools and knowledge, it's be pretty straightforward. With no fancy tools and hardware supplies, you can build a submachine gun.

Gonna make the bullets as well?

A false choice. Taking guns away from the people does not lower crime - a point I think I proved in the debate with W&F's.

It does lower the chances of getting blasted to pieces by a submachine gun, however.

[Papewaio]

My thoughts were simple. One person, armed and willing to act in defense of others, is more valuable than the most responsive police force in these situations. This is no fault of the police -- they cannot be all places at all times.

True but how much people would have died if the attacker only had access to a set of steak knives he got with his ab builder bought at 3am...

I'm pretty sure that it is people that kill people, and that we arm our military with guns because they beat pointy sticks.

I'm also pretty sure that even if you armed everyone at some point the wacko is going to go batty and use a sniper rifle from the belfry.

No matter what, having guns freely available means that there are going to be deadly consequences. Are guns licensed and trained like cars? If not, why not. Surely both are tools that in the wrong hands (inexperienced, drugged, nutcase etc) can be disastrous.

[KukriKhan]

Oddity: in the Omaha mall-shooting, one might think that someone on security staff would be armed. I've not seen reports that they were.

In Colorado, a church felt the need (apparently, correctly) to have armed security.

Somehow, that seems incongruous.

[Devastatin Dave]

Oddity: in the Omaha mall-shooting, one might think that someone on security staff would be armed. I've not seen reports that they were.

In Colorado, a church felt the need (apparently, correctly) to have armed security.

Somehow, that seems incongruous.

Devine intervention?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Are guns licensed and trained like cars? If not, why not. Surely both are tools that in the wrong hands (inexperienced, drugged, nutcase etc) can be disastrous.

Nice points here. I don't think most of the Backroomers would like my answer.

[Papewaio]

I would assume that the licensing registry would have to
a) Be limited to a state authority.
b) Not be allowed to be viewed by or used by any Federal authority.

[Slyspy]

One security guard stands firm and saves a few lives in the process. Despite a response time of less than 180 seconds (kudos to them!), the police arrived only to mop up. ....score one more for the virtue of an armed citizenry.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...25NxMzVoWm8rrQ

As far as I can see it is more of a score draw. Or rather crazy-dude with gun: 4, volunteer security guard: 1.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As far as I can see it is more of a score draw. Or rather crazy-dude with gun: 4, volunteer security guard: 1.

True, but I think it really BTS out of dude with gun: 17 + self, others: targets and lots of screaming.

[Slyspy]

True, but I think it really BTS out of dude with gun: 17 + self, others: targets and lots of screaming.

Again, true. But since all those involved were in fact armed citizens I'm not sure how these particular incidents help your case!